RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies

RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies
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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/26/2006 1:24 PM

Matt-in-the-hat

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Wow big surprise. Horizon has pushed back release of FS One to mid october now. I have one word for them PATHETIC! why don't they just say on the website. We're having issues, we don't know when it will be ready. instead of pushing it back to a date they know they probably won;t reach. Oh yea, and they also say it will be released summer of 06, not sure when they last looked at a calender but summer is over in a couple of weeks, and last I checked it dosn;t go into October.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/26/2006 1:32 PM

50%plane

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darn! I guess I will never fly it.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/26/2006 6:12 PM

aviti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt-in-the-hat

Wow big surprise. Horizon has pushed back release of FS One to mid october now. I have one word for them PATHETIC! why don't they just say on the website. We're having issues, we don't know when it will be ready. instead of pushing it back to a date they know they probably won;t reach. Oh yea, and they also say it will be released summer of 06, not sure when they last looked at a calender but summer is over in a couple of weeks, and last I checked it dosn;t go into October.

This happens with almost any new airplane, radio, engine, sim. We wanna know about new products as soon as we can but then we get angry when there are delays. G3 came out with a bunch of bugs probably because they tried to meet a date they shouldn't have. Just be patient. I'd also suggest waiting until a few others have tried the new sim before buying it yourself. I have AFPD and just recently got G3. By the time I am getting bored with G3 I'm sure FS One will be out with most of the bugs fixed....

By the way, you might think of it like this. You start a new plane with the hopes of getting it done in a month. Some other things come up, some of the additional parts you need are out of stock, you encounter some problems with construction....while you had great intentions of getting it done for the next big fly in, it takes an extra month....

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/26/2006 9:20 PM

50%plane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt-in-the-hat

Wow big surprise. Horizon has pushed back release of FS One to mid october now. I have one word for them PATHETIC! why don't they just say on the website. We're having issues, we don't know when it will be ready. instead of pushing it back to a date they know they probably won;t reach. Oh yea, and they also say it will be released summer of 06, not sure when they last looked at a calender but summer is over in a couple of weeks, and last I checked it dosn;t go into October.

This happens with almost any new airplane, radio, engine, sim. We wanna know about new products as soon as we can but then we get angry when there are delays. G3 came out with a bunch of bugs probably because they tried to meet a date they shouldn't have. Just be patient. I'd also suggest waiting until a few others have tried the new sim before buying it yourself. I have AFPD and just recently got G3. By the time I am getting bored with G3 I'm sure FS One will be out with most of the bugs fixed....

By the way, you might think of it like this. You start a new plane with the hopes of getting it done in a month. Some other things come up, some of the additional parts you need are out of stock, you encounter some problems with construction....while you had great intentions of getting it done for the next big fly in, it takes an extra month....

yea, but a delay from July to October is pretty big.......

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/27/2006 2:27 AM

L0stS0ul

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Not really, Considering the lead time needed to get these things on store shelves that's about right. I'd rather them take a bit longer and get it right then do what Realflight did with G3. I don't think any new simulator can make that mistake now that there are already 3 mature sims on the market. They have to be as good or better.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 1:20 AM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane

yea, but a delay from July to October is pretty big.......

That is nothing. The software industry is notorious for missing ship dates.

You should have seen the delays on Dungeon Siege 2.

oh.. and do we need to mention Windows Vista?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 1:44 AM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IFlySlowPlanes

With all these sims coming in at around $200, is it only a matter of time before one company or another realizes that in order to win market share, they'll need to lower their prices? I mean, I know we're supposed to think "Yeah, but it's still cheaper than wrecking a real one." And let's not forget, "But this is such a small demographic....we have to make up for the lack of volume!"

While I won't go so far as to say these programs are the equivalent of other mass-market video games, and should therefore be priced comparably, I DO think every one of these programs is over-priced, particularly when you consider the hardware requirements to make them function at anywhere near the capability they demonstrate in ads and on the show floors.

I for one won't bother until the prices become reasonable (and yes, I know my definition of reasonable may be different from yours!). Not saying "never"...because that's a long time!

Just my $0.02

I agree with the $200 price tag. It is just too much for what it is. I think a $99 price point is where they really need to be at to generate a greater number of sales.

I'm sure there are several arguments supporting this price and I will address a few of them.

1. $200 is cheaper that crashing a plane

However, point is that none of the simulators guarantee your plane at the field. As good as the best simulator may be, it is not the real thing and practicing on it may help you at the field, but it isn't enough in itself as the realism isn't all the way there. In fact, you could argue that the simulator might actually make a person a little over confident and cause them to crash the real plane. I'm sure someone has said: "that didn't happpen like that on the simulator".

2. Development costs have to be recouped

Of course they do. I don't know how many millions of dollars they spent developing the DVD player, but I can guarantee you not many people would have paid $10,000 for one. Volume comes when the price point gets to a key area. The basis of any sales decision is pretty simple. When Value > Price or Perceived Value > Price, a sale is made. When not, people don't buy. I don't know the magic that so many companies use to develop products and recoup their R&D cost, but it is not by being overpriced in the marketplace. It just so happens that the RC Sim market hasn't had anyone do a price drop yet.

3. They don't sell enough copies to justify a lower price

There is a balance between volume and profitability. A company has to determine how many units it can move at each price point. It also has to determine how large their marketplace is and how many potential customers exist. However, marketing can help overcome some of these issue. For example, bundling a "Lite" version of a Sim with airplanes could result in much greater sales by putting the product in front of more eyes than traditional marketing.

There are others as well.

My point is this...

If I am sitting in my living room and not jumping at the $200 price tag then it results in no sale. However, if I would buy at $99 and one other person would too then the math is simple. ZERO at $200 or TWO at $99. Looks like a $0/$198 difference. What would the developer rather have?

I truly believe that $99 is the magic number.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 2:20 AM

Raylon

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Well said Nightone. A hundred bucks would deffinently be the magic number I believe also.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 4:15 AM

GeneG

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Its the market that drives the price point. Not the individual. As much as you want it to be $100 because that it what you feel its worth, the market says otherwise. All RC Flight sims are in the same price range. Do you think that is just a coincidence?. Thats the price the market settled on. They will make money on FS One selling it at $209 (or $200) because they know that people have already bought other sims at that price and they think that FS One is a better product.

I know its hard to swallow but the idea is to make as much money as you can, not just enough. When you price a new product for market you always price it high for two simple reasons. People will pay a premium to be an early adopter and you can ALWAYS lower the price (you can NEVER raise it). You want to price a product so that a small percentage of your customers complain about it and don't purchase it. Being in that situation means you priced the product right and are getting the best return on your investment through the majority of your customers that are buying it.

If it was your product and your R&D money that went into it you would do the same exact thing. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

< Message edited by GeneG -- 8/28/2006 4:16 AM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 3:10 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneG

Its the market that drives the price point. Not the individual. As much as you want it to be $100 because that it what you feel its worth, the market says otherwise. All RC Flight sims are in the same price range. Do you think that is just a coincidence?. Thats the price the market settled on. They will make money on FS One selling it at $209 (or $200) because they know that people have already bought other sims at that price and they think that FS One is a better product.

I know its hard to swallow but the idea is to make as much money as you can, not just enough. When you price a new product for market you always price it high for two simple reasons. People will pay a premium to be an early adopter and you can ALWAYS lower the price (you can NEVER raise it). You want to price a product so that a small percentage of your customers complain about it and don't purchase it. Being in that situation means you priced the product right and are getting the best return on your investment through the majority of your customers that are buying it.

If it was your product and your R&D money that went into it you would do the same exact thing. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

It is not that I *want* it to be $100. If it was based on me, I would want it to be $20.

My point is that at $200, I'm not a buyer. At $99 I would be. Apparently there are many other as well. How much revenue is getting left on the table?

I agree with your point that newer products are always priced higher. I also have to point out that some of these flight sims aren't so new anymore.

As far as it being my R&D money, I would definitely want to get it back along with my profit. However, I only care about the per unit price as it relates to how many units can be moved. One buyer at $4M = Two Buyers at $2M..etc. I'm more concerned about how many buyers I think I got out there and how does the math work out after that.

Of course you could argue that cutting the price 1/2 may generate twice as many buyers but result in the same revenue. This is true. But when you release a $20 add-on, you now have twice as many potential buyers which has a greater upside.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 5:15 PM

GeneG

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You need to keep in mind that FS One's potential market is small and fixed. FS One would only be of interest to people that are a subset within the RC Market (which itself is already a niche). Hangar 9 can only expect to sell a limited number of copies. It's not the same market as other software (which is a somewhat small market in itself, although not niche). So it has to price according to that market and projected sales. Working within a wholesale model works if your products have a broad appeal or if they are consumables.

You need to sell to the percentage of your market that are going to buy it, not that could buy it. Even at $20, people that have other sims may not buy it because they already have one. The number of increased sales you would get at $20 in a fixed market will not overcome the loss of revenue you suffer per unit when compared against $200. There are just not enough interested people out there to overcome the difference.

If you think its too expensive than you shouldn't buy it and convince others as well. Vote with your wallet. If enough people refuse to buy FS One at $200 than Hangar 9 will be forced to lower the price.

Hangar 9 knows their market and I think FS One will do fine at that price point.

I just hope its a good sim.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 6:07 PM

NightOne

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The business landscape is littered with defunct companies who thought they "knew their market.

The market already has 3 sims at $200 per. FSOne will make it 4.

IMHO, if the market supports 4 sims at $200 price levels then it certainly can support only 2 at $100.

Heck, if we want to talk about niche markets...the whole RC plane industry is a niche market.

I stand by my original points. Also, remember I said the original magic price is $99. (not $20)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 9:57 PM

skirtz

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Actually, the magic price is $30 and there is a full featured sim for that price allready. Try this one: clearview - it flies as good as the $200 and is only $30.

Stefan
http://rcflightsim.com

< Message edited by skirtz -- 8/28/2006 9:59 PM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 9:59 PM

aviti

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There are $100 sims available. AFP (not deluxe) was and may still be available for $100. The physics in that sim are every bit as good as the Deluxe. You can learn just as much on it. If its not still availbale new, then get it used on E-bay. But there are plenty of people willing to pay $200 for the latest sim so you can say the price is too high. The fact that people buy them for $200 says otherwise. If you are right, then the price will come down or they'll go out of business for lack of sales.

As for the delays, if you can't deal with it, then buy another sim. I have AFPD and G3, both are awesome. I will buy FS One when it comes out as well....I can't think of a better use for my my new $200 graphics card....

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/28/2006 10:23 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

There are $100 sims available. AFP (not deluxe) was and may still be available for $100. The physics in that sim are every bit as good as the Deluxe. You can learn just as much on it. If its not still availbale new, then get it used on E-bay. But there are plenty of people willing to pay $200 for the latest sim so you can say the price is too high. The fact that people buy them for $200 says otherwise. If you are right, then the price will come down or they'll go out of business for lack of sales.

Hey, there are people willing to pay $1000 for a baseball, $10,000 for ringside seats to a mediocre boxing match, and $49.95 to watch a WWF PPV. I'm not one of them. So saying that the price isn't too high because you can find someone to pay it doesn't mean anything. Some celebrities pay $3000 for a purse. Does that mean Wal-Mart should markl all their purses to $3K?

My original point is that $200 is to high for these flight sims. I said $99 would produce more sales and the cut in price would be made up in volume. I neve said that there are not people out there who will not pay $200 for one. I'm sure there are people out there who would pay $495 for the software. Would you feel the same if the price was $495. What about $995?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti
As for the delays, if you can't deal with it, then buy another sim. I have AFPD and G3, both are awesome. I will buy FS One when it comes out as well....I can't think of a better use for my my new $200 graphics card....

I didn't compain about release dates. Someone else did. (maybe this part wasn't directed at me)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/29/2006 5:09 PM

dubd

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I'll add my $.02 here since I develop software for a living. To the comment about selling the product at $100, rather than $200... well Horizon would need to do the calculations to determine how much money it is losing on each unit and whether or not they can sell enough to recoup their r&d budget. Also, there is a perception issue for uninformed buyers who think the more expensive product is the better one. If FSone is sitting on the shelf for $99 and G3 is selling for $200 the uninformed would think that G3 was a better product. Not everyone is swayed by money. Keep in mind that this hobby is fueled by disposeable income, so cost savings isn't always an issue. Hell, I just paid $100 for control arms for my TOC1 Yak! I could see greater penetration if they sold it for $179, which would keep it competitive to G3 and provide incentive for the value conscious hobbyist.

Regarding release dates, Horizon should do what many video game publishers do these days... state that the product will ship within a certain window, such as Q1 of 2007 or Spring of 2007. I know they made the attempt by stating summer of 2006, but then they went to stating the month and have delayed it every month since June. Simply state it'll be ready in Q4 if 2006 and people won't know if you slip from Oct to November or even to Dec.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/29/2006 6:23 PM

aviti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

There are $100 sims available. AFP (not deluxe) was and may still be available for $100. The physics in that sim are every bit as good as the Deluxe. You can learn just as much on it. If its not still availbale new, then get it used on E-bay. But there are plenty of people willing to pay $200 for the latest sim so you can say the price is too high. The fact that people buy them for $200 says otherwise. If you are right, then the price will come down or they'll go out of business for lack of sales.

Hey, there are people willing to pay $1000 for a baseball, $10,000 for ringside seats to a mediocre boxing match, and $49.95 to watch a WWF PPV. I'm not one of them. So saying that the price isn't too high because you can find someone to pay it doesn't mean anything. Some celebrities pay $3000 for a purse. Does that mean Wal-Mart should markl all their purses to $3K?

My original point is that $200 is to high for these flight sims. I said $99 would produce more sales and the cut in price would be made up in volume. I neve said that there are not people out there who will not pay $200 for one. I'm sure there are people out there who would pay $495 for the software. Would you feel the same if the price was $495. What about $995?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti
As for the delays, if you can't deal with it, then buy another sim. I have AFPD and G3, both are awesome. I will buy FS One when it comes out as well....I can't think of a better use for my my new $200 graphics card....

I didn't compain about release dates. Someone else did. (maybe this part wasn't directed at me)

NightOne - I respect your opinion but the sales of these $200 sims suggest otherwise. Honestly I think the system requirements are a bigger obstacle for most people than the $200 price tag. Again, the orginal AFP that costs $100 is a great sim and runs on many older computers.

If the price were $495, then very few people would buy it in my opinion. At $995, even less would buy it. But basic supply and demand economics shows the price is right. If more people agreed with you, then sales would be slow. If they were making am absolute killing on the software, then other developers would see this and come in with a comparable sim for a lower price.

A guy was selling plane covers for 100+ dollars. Some guy complained that the price was too high. If he thought so, why didn't he start a business sellling the plane covers at half that price for the same product. If you think you can sell a sim like AFPD, G3, FS One for $100 and make money, why not do it. If your are right, you'll be the one to profit and the others will be left in the dust....

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/29/2006 7:41 PM

NightOne

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Let's take a poll.

In fact, I already posetd one:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4685104

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/29/2006 11:15 PM

aviti

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The poll is fine, as you can see, people see the value in the latest and greatest sims. But I can't understand why you are complaining about the price. Have you even looked at Aerofly Pro? It has the same physics at the Deluxe just no photo flying fields etc. It's $99 and available now. You would be perfectly happy with this sim. Here is a link to the Ikarus site where it is available. OMP may still have it too.

http://www.ikarus-modellbau.de/onlineshop/usa/index.php?sid=7e9d81533c36e1c6895bdf8daeeb3931&cl=details&cnid=219&anid=65b42354a4f17d2d7.50972371

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/30/2006 2:12 AM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

The poll is fine, as you can see, people see the value in the latest and greatest sims. But I can't understand why you are complaining about the price.

Poll is still early. Still need a lot more votes to get a better representation.

I'm tending to think that maybe some industry people are jumping on this early, but I could be wrong.

We'll see how it comes out. If it continues to trend as it is now then I will admit that I am wrong about the whole issue, but I would be a little shocked.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/30/2006 10:13 PM

aviti

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The poll still shows most people will pay $200 for a good sim. By the way, I just spent over $200 for 3 JR charge switches, 5 aluminum servo arms, 2 servo extensions, and a dual conversion crystal. You wanna talk about expensive for not a lot of stuff. A freaking spinner for a 35% plane costs $140. You want the nice stuff, you gotta pay dude.

You still have not answered why you don't buy Aerofly Pro at $99. It is exactly what you are asking for. Until you have tried this sim, I refuse to listen to anymore complaining about the price.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/31/2006 12:08 AM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

The poll still shows most people will pay $200 for a good sim. By the way, I just spent over $200 for 3 JR charge switches, 5 aluminum servo arms, 2 servo extensions, and a dual conversion crystal. You wanna talk about expensive for not a lot of stuff. A freaking spinner for a 35% plane costs $140. You want the nice stuff, you gotta pay dude.

You still have not answered why you don't buy Aerofly Pro at $99. It is exactly what you are asking for. Until you have tried this sim, I refuse to listen to anymore complaining about the price.

I guess it is a long standing issue with the software industry when it comes to multiple versions of a products.

For example, there is Windows XP Home and Windows XP Professional. Outside of those that had the OS bundled with their system, there are a lot of people who opt for the Pro version just because it has more features. How many people use Quicken Deluxe vs. Quick Basic? There a lot of examples in the software business. I've just never been a big supporter of the lesser version of a product. (there are some exceptions)

Again, the poll is very early. Interesting that there are so many hits on the thread but not that many votes. I wonder what keeps so many from voting.

Like I said, current trending does support your position, but we need more voters.

I would love to try Aerofly Pro (not Deluxe) but there is no demo available. (at least not one that I have seen)

I like to try before I buy.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 8/31/2006 3:09 AM

aviti

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Well the demo for G3 doesn't give a true representation of the sim. Why not read what people have said about AFP. I have AFP, Upgraded it to AFPD, have G2, G3 and have tried Reflex. All of those are good but AFP for $99 is a great value. Good luck with your decision.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/3/2006 6:18 AM

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From: west hurley, NY, USA
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In my healthcare field we are constantly looking to get software .each time we purchae modules for such things as billing admissions or measuring quality care practices I know that the company spent as much as a million bucks or more to develop the software.I suspect that if horizon had a huge audience the price could come down but its still apparently has bugs to work out though the physics look great.I have to laugh when I hear 200 bucks is too much.have you looked at the sale prices on rc universes buy and sell.doesnt seem to me that you guys dont quibble over buying gas engines or 3D planes that cost hundreds and in many cases over a 1000 bucks.

200 is not a major expense if you want it, buy it, and just have fun.crashing a sim model is zero dollars and gives you the luxury to try aerobatics and if you crash so what.In the old dave brown simulator you could crash and it would estimaate repair costs as nutty as that sounds..I literally tried to crash and see how high I could get the dollars up.

if you believe the price should be 99 then you must believe gas prices should be at 1 dollar and we know neither is going to happen in this lifetime.so just get a sim and have fun with it.

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(in reply to aviti)

Post #: 74

RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/6/2006 10:51 PM

NightOne

Posts: 138
Score: 100
Joined: 8/14/2006
Last Login: 6/24/2009
From: Millington, TN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudancer03

if you believe the price should be 99 then you must believe gas prices should be at 1 dollar and we know neither is going to happen in this lifetime.so just get a sim and have fun with it.

We're up to 46 votes in the poll. Want to get at least 100 votes before commenting on the numbers.

Personally, I'm still torn as to what Sim to get.

I've narrowed it down to AFPD or G3. Too many cool features added to Deluxe to go with AFP only.

I've played with the demo of G3 twice now and can't say that it makes me eager to buy it. (especially at 200 - but enough on that)

I have full versions of G3 and AFPD but cannot really evaluate them without controls and neither work with a keyboard. AFPD looks really cool from what I have seen but I hear it flies too easy. Of course, I cannot judge myself without buying it or finding a store that has it on demo. Maybe G3 is stronger in the non-demo version, but I cannot determine that either.

Finally, a lot of people who talk about the Sims seem to focus on 3D. The guy at the field who recommended APFD is heavy into 3D. I'm not really looking for a "game" that I can master without being able to do the same at the field. I'm really looking for "simulation" which is what all of these are supposed to be.

So it gets down to the point of whether one is actually a nicer looking and fun Sim which is more of a game or a serious tool. I've heard some people say that G3 is the closest to being at the field. I do know one thing...my current Cockpit Master software is pretty pathetic in a lot of areas.

Finally, with my luck, as soon as I buy...G4 and/or AFPD 2 will come out!

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(in reply to cloudancer03)

Post #: 75

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