RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies

RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies
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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 12:35 PM

da Rock

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quote:

I tend to believe that the programming for G3 is not necessarily more complex but probably suffers from an older code base and a less modern architecture. It certainly appears to have been around much longer than many others

There is absolutely no way for a user to tell anything about a program's complexity or design, what it's base is or it's architecture.

How long a title has been around is really no indication of it's present content. Very often, the ones that've been around will be the ones with much more time invested in their design. And they're usually the ones that've had far more details enhanced and code optimised. And they often see redesign of sections that've proven to be time hogs. And they often see updates that change the title to keep up with new developments in technology. They've got programmers who're familiar with the application and have fought those functions before and know what they need to change. And those titles are often the ones that'll be around much longer, because popularity breeds profits and profits often improve the product.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 12:39 PM

50%plane

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quote:

I believe the version I have is 3.00 Build 366. I think the very latest is Build 410. (but not an expert)

I tend to believe that the programming for G3 is not necessarily more complex but probably suffers from an older code base and a less modern architecture. It certainly appears to have been around much longer than many others

In that case, you should update before you pass full judgement on G3. The new update is .448. It is far more improved of the .300 or .366. In addition to much improved flight physics, you will be able to get user created planes(update .426) Photofields also came out about the version .366.(so you'll get them if you don't already have them...)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 4:42 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darock

quote:

I tend to believe that the programming for G3 is not necessarily more complex but probably suffers from an older code base and a less modern architecture. It certainly appears to have been around much longer than many others

There is absolutely no way for a user to tell anything about a program's complexity or design, what it's base is or it's architecture.

Sure there is. Anyone can look at a directory structure and see if a program uses 500 separate media files or one flat file. Not to mention disassembling. How do you think they reverse engineer things in the far east?

quote:

How long a title has been around is really no indication of it's present content. Very often, the ones that've been around will be the ones with much more time invested in their design. And they're usually the ones that've had far more details enhanced and code optimised. And they often see redesign of sections that've proven to be time hogs. And they often see updates that change the title to keep up with new developments in technology. They've got programmers who're familiar with the application and have fought those functions before and know what they need to change. And those titles are often the ones that'll be around much longer, because popularity breeds profits and profits often improve the product.

For an argument against your point see www.novell.com.

or would you like to use Microsoft Windows as an example?

< Message edited by NightOne -- 9/10/2006 4:43 PM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 4:47 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane

quote:

I believe the version I have is 3.00 Build 366. I think the very latest is Build 410. (but not an expert)

I tend to believe that the programming for G3 is not necessarily more complex but probably suffers from an older code base and a less modern architecture. It certainly appears to have been around much longer than many others
In that case, you should update before you pass full judgement on G3. The new update is .448. It is far more improved of the .300 or .366. In addition to much improved flight physics, you will be able to get user created planes(update .426) Photofields also came out about the version .366.(so you'll get them if you don't already have them...)

50%

How old is Build 366?

I find it tough to believe that after all the years of RF that the physics don't get great until the most recent version. Where can I can get the release notes? (I'll check the RF page)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 6:14 PM

RVM

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You must not know much about software life cycles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

How old is Build 366?

I find it tough to believe that after all the years of RF that the physics don't get great until the most recent version. Where can I can get the release notes? (I'll check the RF page)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 6:15 PM

RVM

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BTW NightOne what are you using for a controller? I'm looking for a sim as well but can't really try any because I don't have a controller set up. Keyboard is silly.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 7:58 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

BTW NightOne what are you using for a controller? I'm looking for a sim as well but can't really try any because I don't have a controller set up. Keyboard is silly.

I'm using a JR Transmitter with a Serial PIC cable. This may not work for you as there is additional software involved in my case.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 8:02 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

You must not know much about software life cycles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

How old is Build 366?

I find it tough to believe that after all the years of RF that the physics don't get great until the most recent version. Where can I can get the release notes? (I'll check the RF page)

My point being is that flight physics would be the #1 important feature for a flight sim and thus would have been in there since the beginning with only tweaks throughout the years.

That would be like saying MS Word doesn't actually get good at creating documents until 2003 version.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 8:03 PM

RVM

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Which JR radio are you using? Where do you have the cable plugged into? The only input/output on my radio is the 1/8" DSC jack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

I'm using a JR Transmitter with a Serial PIC cable. This may not work for you as there is additional software involved in my case.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 8:08 PM

RVM

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MS Word wasn't very good at creating Word documents in its original format. In fact, there is a great deal of software released that, in its initial form, is not all that great at its intended purpose.

I don't know that G3 was good or bad at its release - I know little about it. I just know a great deal about software in general, and it is not unlikely that the engine in the initial release of G3 was lacking.

I mean no offense, but you seem to know very little about software.

By the way, no, that's not how software is reverse engineered, anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

My point being is that flight physics would be the #1 important feature for a flight sim and thus would have been in there since the beginning with only tweaks throughout the years.

That would be like saying MS Word doesn't actually get good at creating documents until 2003 version.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 10:11 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

MS Word wasn't very good at creating Word documents in its original format. In fact, there is a great deal of software released that, in its initial form, is not all that great at its intended purpose.

I don't know that G3 was good or bad at its release - I know little about it. I just know a great deal about software in general, and it is not unlikely that the engine in the initial release of G3 was lacking.

I mean no offense, but you seem to know very little about software.

By the way, no, that's not how software is reverse engineered, anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

My point being is that flight physics would be the #1 important feature for a flight sim and thus would have been in there since the beginning with only tweaks throughout the years.

That would be like saying MS Word doesn't actually get good at creating documents until 2003 version.

Well I would beg to differ. Besides going back to the Pre-DOS days and having formal training in Cobol, Fortran, Assembler, self-taught in Basic, and general knowledge of C and Pascal, I have been around software for a lot of years.

I was around when the very first version of Word for Windows was released and there is not a significant amount of difference in the basic document composition functionality. They have added a lot of features, but writing a letter is basically the same.

PLUS...

I'm not a Mississippi State Bulldogs Fan!

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 10:13 PM

NightOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

Which JR radio are you using? Where do you have the cable plugged into? The only input/output on my radio is the 1/8" DSC jack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

I'm using a JR Transmitter with a Serial PIC cable. This may not work for you as there is additional software involved in my case.

The cable I have is a DB9 Serial to 1/8"

It came with CockpitMaster software included with my Hangar 9 trainer.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 10:24 PM

RVM

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I'm not a sports fan at all. In fact, the college football mania is really irritating, because it takes the focus away from education.

I meant no offense, and based on your experience, I'm rather surprised at your statements concerning software. I go back to MSDOS 2.0 or somewhere therabouts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

MS Word wasn't very good at creating Word documents in its original format. In fact, there is a great deal of software released that, in its initial form, is not all that great at its intended purpose.

I don't know that G3 was good or bad at its release - I know little about it. I just know a great deal about software in general, and it is not unlikely that the engine in the initial release of G3 was lacking.

I mean no offense, but you seem to know very little about software.

By the way, no, that's not how software is reverse engineered, anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

My point being is that flight physics would be the #1 important feature for a flight sim and thus would have been in there since the beginning with only tweaks throughout the years.

That would be like saying MS Word doesn't actually get good at creating documents until 2003 version.

Well I would beg to differ. Besides going back to the Pre-DOS days and having formal training in Cobol, Fortran, Assembler, self-taught in Basic, and general knowledge of C and Pascal, I have been around software for a lot of years.

I was around when the very first version of Word for Windows was released and there is not a significant amount of difference in the basic document composition functionality. They have added a lot of features, but writing a letter is basically the same.

PLUS...

I'm not a Mississippi State Bulldogs Fan!

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/10/2006 10:26 PM

RVM

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I need a USB --> 1/8". I broke the serial port on my machine some time ago. I guess I could get in there and fix the connection, but the question is, do I really want to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

Which JR radio are you using? Where do you have the cable plugged into? The only input/output on my radio is the 1/8" DSC jack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightOne

I'm using a JR Transmitter with a Serial PIC cable. This may not work for you as there is additional software involved in my case.

The cable I have is a DB9 Serial to 1/8"

It came with CockpitMaster software included with my Hangar 9 trainer.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/11/2006 1:34 AM

50%plane

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G3 was PATHETIC when it was released and really hasn't come to life until recently. It should have still been in beta form. Now's the real thing.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/11/2006 3:37 PM

L0stS0ul

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lol yeah, for all the g3 users that bought it right at release we've been beta testing it for over a year. Only since the last 2 updates is it really finally outta "beta" lol. I really did not like the changes they made in the last update though.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/11/2006 3:56 PM

50%plane

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quote:

Only since the last 2 updates is it really finally outta "beta" lol.

lol That's about right. I'd say the last three updates though. The .426 was pretty good. I'd probably be running that if it wasn't for multiplayer.

50%

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/11/2006 4:08 PM

rjm1982

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Nightone...G3 suffered originally from the same affliction that most consumer-end simulators do.

It has to look pretty to sell (good graphics) and it has to be correct physically.

An accurate physics engine eats up a ton of resources, not leaving much for graphics, and vice versa. There is a way to cheat it, and thats the same way AFPD and other sims have. Photofields. They tote them as "revolutionary" or any other number of marketing buzzwords, but its really just a cheat. Photofields use almost no graphical processessing power compared to a full 3d environment. Notice that G3s improvement in "feel" coincided with the photofields?

In that regard, my framerate dropped on 3d fields with the new updates. But I have an "upper-end" PC (laptop actually) so i have very little problem running it.

I've worked in the software/programming field most of my professional life...so I know the cycle. I know the battle of "look good" and "work fast"...especially since my current job is web-centric, so performace vs. appearance is even more of a battle.

In the end though, none of the sims feel "real"...their value is in creating/maintaing/strengthening the hand-eye coordination of certain manuevers.

At the end of the day, they are all "games" ... enjoy them as such and stop complaining about everything.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/11/2006 8:33 PM

RVM

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Could not have said it better. Indeed, I didn't!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rjm1982

Nightone...G3 suffered originally from the same affliction that most consumer-end simulators do.

It has to look pretty to sell (good graphics) and it has to be correct physically.

An accurate physics engine eats up a ton of resources, not leaving much for graphics, and vice versa. There is a way to cheat it, and thats the same way AFPD and other sims have. Photofields. They tote them as "revolutionary" or any other number of marketing buzzwords, but its really just a cheat. Photofields use almost no graphical processessing power compared to a full 3d environment. Notice that G3s improvement in "feel" coincided with the photofields?

In that regard, my framerate dropped on 3d fields with the new updates. But I have an "upper-end" PC (laptop actually) so i have very little problem running it.

I've worked in the software/programming field most of my professional life...so I know the cycle. I know the battle of "look good" and "work fast"...especially since my current job is web-centric, so performace vs. appearance is even more of a battle.

In the end though, none of the sims feel "real"...their value is in creating/maintaing/strengthening the hand-eye coordination of certain manuevers.

At the end of the day, they are all "games" ... enjoy them as such and stop complaining about everything.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/13/2006 1:44 AM

softreq

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Has anyone found a decent review for FS One?

I saw a writeup by someone who saw or briefly tried the software at a tradeshow.

Given it's for sale already, has anyone actually bought and used FS One that could contribute any level of user review?

-- Terry

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/23/2006 2:26 AM

bayareajeff

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Does any one know if you can use the G3 interlink controller with this sim??

Jeff

< Message edited by bayareajeff -- 9/25/2006 12:39 AM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/26/2006 4:56 AM

MSelig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayareajeff

Does any one know if you can use the G3 interlink controller with this sim??

Jeff

The sim will work with any USB game controller, and the G2/G3 controllers are USB
game controllers like any other. So the answer is yes it will work.

Michael

< Message edited by MSelig -- 9/27/2006 2:32 AM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 9/26/2006 5:34 PM

RobT

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Michael Selig... as in Professor Selig? Did you have a hand in the creation of FSone? How "real" do you believe it to be?

Thanks

Rob.

P.S. Thank you for all of your work and inspiration over the years.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 7:09 AM

MSelig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobT

Michael Selig... as in Professor Selig? Did you have a hand in the creation of FSone? How "real" do you believe it to be?

Thanks

Rob.

P.S. Thank you for all of your work and inspiration over the years.

Yes, that's me. Good to hear that you've enjoyed the airfoil work.
It's a product of a lot of people - myself, students, other
collaborators, and many volunteers.

The FS One project is a bit like that - lots of people behind it and
hopefully a lot of people will enjoy it! I've focused on doing the
aerodynamics for all the airplanes in the sim.

You asked me a question - how "real" is it? I think that's the first
time I've been asked that question in these forums.

I can answer it best by example (new videos). The toughest thing to
simulate are the aerodynamics/flight dynamics of spin. Spin
aerodynamics is rarely covered in the textbooks, and often if it is
covered it's near the end of the book (e.g. McCormick's aero book
starts spins on page 577 and the main text of the book ends on page
601). Research on spins is also pretty sparse, but I think by far
Bihrle Applied Research has looked at spins the most (various NASA CR
reports on particular configurations measured in spin tunnels).

More info: To some degree our lack of understanding of spins and
stalls - stall/spin - accounts for ~25% of general aviation accidents
each yr (biggest category). The second on the list at ~15% is loss of
control in adverse weather, and I'd guess much of that involves
stall/spin - usually icing related. US Private Pilots reading this
will know that spin training is not required by the FAA, and it's a
big debate whether or not there should be spin training. For some
period of time long ago when there was spin training, 48% of all fatal
stall/spin accidents occurred during spin training! That's the argument for
why we don't have required spin training today.

So spins are the biggest challenge (in my book). Leading up to spins
are stalls, and related to that is all the wild "3D"/aerobatic flying
that we're witnessing today with RC models. In general a lot of this
is called post-stall aero. The videos that are posted on the FSOne
site show a lot of the "3D" aero, and to all involved (on our side) it
looks right and hence I'll say "real" - very real. "You be the
judge."

In another thread I made the argument that if the videos look right,
then the physics are right. I'll stand by that claim. I guess the
counter claim would be if the videos look wrong ... then the physics
are right??? That does not make sense to me.

Back to spins - the hardest thing to do (in low speed configuration
aerodynamics): We have taken real video of the planes in the sim and
we often capture spins. Here's a short video showing REAL model
airplanes in spins:

http://www.inertiasoft.com/videos/fs1_RealSpins.wmv (21 Mb)

The video includes the ParkZone J-3 Cub, H9 Edge 540 33%, Cessna 182
Skylane, Twist, Ultra Stick Lite and EFL Tribute.

I used FS One to fly the same airplanes in the sim (all stock
airplanes) and made a video of them in the same sequence here:

http://www.inertiasoft.com/videos/fs1_SimulatedSpins.wmv (24 Mb)

Basically, the agreement between the real video and simulator video is
very good I think. Hence I'll say that the sim is very close to real
and in particular especially good at doing one of the toughest things
- spins. After getting spins "right", a lot of other stuff "comes for
free" to some degree.

I need to say that in addition to the aero side, the graphics of the
models, the skies, the panos, engine/motor sounds, ground reactions,
etc all help to create the overall illusion of things being "real".

Michael

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 7:19 AM

rajul

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Mike, thanks for the interesting info. We certainly need more of this type of discussions in the flight sim forum

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