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Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 1:19 AM   
TestPilot6


 

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Status: offline 		Does anyone know what we got to use methanol for the glow engines? What about other fuels that have more energy, like hexane?

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 2:08 AM   
TestPilot6


 

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Status: offline 		I meant "how and why", not "what".

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 2:37 AM   
joesabido



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Status: offline 		Well,

1.- I don't know about the prices of Hexane, but methanol is cheap (nitromethane is what makes glow fuel "expensive")
2.- Methanol is more enviromental friendly since it's produced by the direct combination of hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases, heated under pressure in the presence of a catalyst or by combining natural gas and steam and then forcing the mixture through a series of heated catalytic chambers, contrary to Hexane (as an example) since hexane is produced by refining crude oil.
3.- Castor oil (another natural product used for lubrication in glow fuel) is soluble in Methanol.
4.- Methanol is VERY volatile, which helps combustion AND helps cooling the engines.
5.- Methanol acts as a catalyst to maintain the glow plug coil hot.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but hope that helps

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 3:06 AM   
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Status: offline 		Joe,
You got it covered, especially item 5.
As a computer guy, and a glow flyer, I love your avatar
Regards,
pete


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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 3:22 AM   
joesabido



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Status: offline 		Thanks Pete, would you like one?

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 3:31 AM   
pilotpete2



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Status: offline 		Joe,
Thanks for the offer, but I gotta come up with a good one of my own
Best regards,
pete


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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 3:36 AM   
Jim Thomerson



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Status: offline 		Two groups who, in the old days, experimented with weird fuels are the control line speed fliers and the control line team race fliers. The speed fliers were going after maximum speed and used several now banned ingredients. I think they now have a defined fuel formula in most events. The team racers, in the 50's and 60's, were interested in both speed and economy and tried a wide range of fuel components. There is a revival of interest in "B team race" but I think fuel may be specified. The international team race class is all 2.5 cc diesels which run over 100 MPH and use almost no fuel to do so for lap after lap.

Anyway, given all that, here we are today flying methanol based glow fuels.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 3:43 AM   
TestPilot6


 

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Status: offline 		Thank you, joe. Those make sense. And thank you, jim for the historical background.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 6:22 AM   
B.L.E.



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Status: offline 		Actually, hexane and it's cousins (decane, nonane, octane, heptane, etc.) will also react with the platinum catylist in the glow plug. Coleman lantern fuel, which consists mostly of alkanes, works just fine in camp heaters that use a platinum catylist to burn the fuel.

Here is what I feel is the real reason glow ignition and methanol go so well together. When used in spark ignition engines, methanol makes nearly full power even when the mixture is silly rich, not so with gasoline. This is important because it lets us use the fuel/air mixture to control the ignition timing of the engine. The dramatic power dropoff when we richen the mixture of a glow engine comes from the retarded ignition timing of a rich mixture. Those of us who have played with different head shims have noticed that when we raise or lower the compression of a glow engine, the engine wants a different air/fuel mixture for optimum power.

Well, that's my theory. If someone has a more plausible theory, I'm all ears.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 7:06 AM   
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Status: offline 		Coleman fuel is naptha and will not work in a glow engine. Same as lighter fluid. Works fine in an ignition engine. Methane is the fuel of choice because it's cheap and reacts with the platinum of the glow plug. Ethane will work buyt much less power. The other alkanes won't work in a glow engine.

I flew Speed in the 60's and the only oddball thing added was nitro benzene. Smelled like shoe polish and turned out to be carcinogenic. We did add propylene oxide when using more that 60% nitromethane to get the fuel to mix.

< Message edited by loughbd -- 5/2/2006 7:22 PM >

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 10:58 AM   
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Status: offline 		In all my fuel testing methanol works best with an unheated glow plug. It also offers more power and a broader needle valve than other inexpensive chemicals that I have found. Camp fuel mixed with Coolpower makes good power, idles well, and gives incredible fuel economy but requires glow heat for reliability.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 2:27 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hexane is an excellent degreaser better than methanol so you would need more oil, also running hexane will make the needle very sensitive because the mixture will be more lean than with methanol. Another reason why you would need more oil. I think using the exhaust to pressurize the tank would be a big no no.

I think methanol is just the best comprimise and just about any fuel could be made to work.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 6:57 PM   
downunder



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Status: offline 		Going on with what Jim said about CL fliers experimenting with fuels, and especially speed fliers, the first engines were all spark ignition (ok, except the diesels but they weren't exactly the best for speed) so of course these sparkies were run on petrol at first. Then the experiments began because speed fliers are crazy and if they could find a way to feed nitroglycerine into an engine they'd have tried it

Now, if a fuel can be mixed with oil then a sparkie will run on it so methanol will have been tried by many fliers to good effect. But the story goes that one day a guy called Ray Arden was trying out a new spark plug with his methanol fuel. It ran great but when he turned off the ignition the engine kept on running. It turned out that his new type plug had a platinum electrode and he realised this was reacting with the fuel. From then it was a comparatively short step to him substituting the centre electrode with a coil of platinum wire he could heat up with a battery.


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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/2/2006 7:10 PM   
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Status: offline 		60% nitro, 20% propolene oxide, 20% castor used to make a TD049 scream on the front of my son's 1/2A proto speed planes. We could get 3 runs between engine rebuilds.


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< Message edited by djlyon -- 5/2/2006 7:17 PM >

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 3:27 PM   
B.L.E.



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Status: offline 		I once experimented with a mixture of Coleman lantern fuel and after run oil mixed 50/50 as an after run fuel. After a day of flying, I connected a small tank containing this to the carb and started the engine and let it idle for a minute or until I was satisfied that all the remaining methanol and nitro were gone. Yes, glow engines will run on naphtha, which is a mixture of mostly alkanes. The engine would even keep running when the glow battery was removed.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 4:18 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

It turned out that his new type plug had a platinum electrode and he realised this was reacting with the fuel. From then it was a comparatively short step to him substituting the centre electrode with a coil of platinum wire he could heat up with a battery.


That's not exactly right. He actually was using a normal plug. His first glow plug experments used ni-chrome, he later found that platinum alloys worked better. If you go to the AMA website there is his history there under the hall of fame members.

After posting this the first time I realized this may be in the memebers area, so people from "down under" would most likely not be member's. So I found it and posted the link below. Go to the bottom of page 2 about the invention of the glow plug.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/museum/bio/Arden.pdf

< Message edited by Sport_Pilot -- 5/3/2006 4:25 PM >

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 4:28 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		In the engine conversion forum there have been some people expermenting with glow plugs on gas engines using gas fuel and mixtures of gas and other fuels. Seems they have only fair success with pump gas, often having to use on board glow igniters to keep it running through idle. But by adding methanol to the mix most have good performance without the igniter.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 4:37 PM   
speedster 1919



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Status: offline 		Lets keep it simple---------Here is 2 rules---It has to be better and cheaper. period. There are all kinds of alternative fuels , for autos,heating ,RC engines,ect. But they don't meet the 2 rules better and cheaper.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 5:29 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Well, gas is whole bunch's cheaper! That is better for the wallet.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 5:51 PM   
downunder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
His first glow plug experments used ni-chrome, he later found that platinum alloys worked better.

I stand corrected...thanks for that. And no, I definitely don't belong to the AMA

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 6:03 PM   
speedster 1919



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Status: offline 		YES SPORT Gas is cheaper but not better when were talking glow engines. Unless you convert engine to ignition. Ethanol is the closest to methanol but it is not cheaper unless goverment subsidized and has less power so it is not better.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 7:10 PM   
wcmorrison



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Status: offline 		Hexane is also unavailable in some countries like United Kingdom. Hexane is extremely volital, dangerous at best and to expensive at the least.

Cheers,

Chip

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/3/2006 9:50 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

YES SPORT Gas is cheaper but not better when were talking glow engines.


Gas is cheaper and more effecient. In my book that is better. Sure the engine can't burn as many BTU in a short amount of time, so they make it up by using a larger engine. IMO the next phase will be smaller gas and or diesel engines, may be four strokes. When I say smaller I mean smaller than the large 23 cc and up gas engines currently in production. But larger than what we use now. Someone using a .52 four stroke may have to use a .70 sized four stroke for the same power.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/4/2006 5:52 AM   
B.L.E.



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

YES SPORT Gas is cheaper but not better when were talking glow engines.


Gas is cheaper and more effecient. In my book that is better. Sure the engine can't burn as many BTU in a short amount of time, so they make it up by using a larger engine. IMO the next phase will be smaller gas and or diesel engines, may be four strokes. When I say smaller I mean smaller than the large 23 cc and up gas engines currently in production. But larger than what we use now. Someone using a .52 four stroke may have to use a .70 sized four stroke for the same power.


You can convert glow engines to spark ignition, they even make micro spark plugs with 1/4x32 threads that is standard for glow plugs. You still need to use glow fuel oil percentages because glow engines do not use roller/needle bearings in the rods like the gas burners have. BTW, the most expensive component in glow fuel is not methanol, it's oil. On the down side, it takes just as much spark energy to ignite the fuel/air mixture in a .40 as it does to ignite the fuel/air mixture in a 4.0 or a 40.0, thus the ignition system and the batterys that power it are just as heavy. You end up with an ignition system that weighs nearly as much as the engine.
Better and cheaper Li-Po batterys are the real threat to small glow engines in the future IMHO.

In my experience with engines .40 and smaller, fuel costs are the least of my expenses, lower than club/AMA dues, lower than the cost of driving to the flying field to fly.

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RE: Why Methanol? - 5/4/2006 4:36 PM   
speedster 1919



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Status: offline 		A 40 size with ignition and twice the weight does not fit the better rule. Indiana has 6 ethanol plants being built. My prediction is GLOW FUEL in the future will be ethanol instead of methanol based. First nail in coffin is cars on 85% and second will be Indy cars running 100% ethanol ,rather than methanol next year.

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