Diesel Engine Information HELP (Full Version)

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ghost flyer -> Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/7/2006 11:40:10 PM)

I am helping some college student make a small car about 12 inches wide by 16 inches long that will be powered by a small diesel engine using "biodiesel" fuel that our research labs are developing. I need information about diesel engines. Our goal is to move the car 100 feet in about a minute. Any information or sources to determine engine size or a vendor would be appreciated.



David Owen -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/8/2006 8:13:48 AM)

Your 'biodiesel' fuel could possibly replace the kerosene content in a model diesel engine fuel. Ether and a suitable lubricating oil will still be required.
I would suggest you purchase a small diesel such as one of the PAW 55/049/060 types and build a prop-driven vehicle. Your stated goal of 100'/ 60sec should be readily achieveable with this sort of combination.

David Owen



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/10/2006 3:16:03 AM)

what kind of ether is in the fuel and what percentages? Cator oil as a lubricant?



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/10/2006 3:18:47 AM)

I also looked at the PAW engines, very impressive. I may e-mail them and ask them about the fuel. Why a prop intead of using a clutch and gears?



Jim Thomerson -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/10/2006 7:23:25 PM)

The sort of standard fuel mix is equal parts either, kerosene, and castor oil. Easier starting with more either, more power with more kerosene, maybe get by OK with 20% oil. Your biodiesel may lubricate better than kerosene. PAW engines are available in USA from Carlson imports and Dr. Diesel. Both have websites. A prop-rod is just simpler to make than a wheel driven car.

Darn it, it is ether, not either. Poo on the spellchecker.[>:]



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/11/2006 6:53:17 PM)

What kind of ether is used?



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/11/2006 6:54:59 PM)

Di-ethyl ether?



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/12/2006 2:31:33 PM)

Actually for his use petreleum oil may be better. Both mineral oil and castor oil has been used successfully in model diesel engines. It depends on which will mix better with the biodiesel.



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/12/2006 2:34:11 PM)

It is the same either used in cans of cold starting spray. You can use this for your fuel mix. I suggest going to the diesel engine forum and asking there.



lukesp -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/13/2006 12:19:15 AM)

Di-ethyl ether "technical" grade is fine.



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/14/2006 6:22:42 AM)

They talk about small diesels having problems with atomization any ideas on how to help atomize the fuel? Is there a power difference between a glow and a diesel where I need to use a larger engine?



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/15/2006 1:58:11 PM)

Glow has more power, but diesel will use a larger number of props and perform well with larger props at a lower speed. Glow will not use your bio diesel engine either. Note that these are not true diesels but a normal two cycle with compression ignition. Not sure how they would run if your bio diesel fuel is meant for automobile or truck use. Likely it would be too thick and not volatile enough, just as #2 diesel fuel would. The main component of the fuel is kerosene, the ether is used so that it ignites at a lower temperature so that a more usable compression ration may be used. You may want to find a small industrial diesel engine and use that, but I don't think they make them smaller than a garden tractor size or so. And of course it would cost big bucks.



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/16/2006 4:27:43 AM)

You are correct. "Bio diesel" is meant to replace diesel fuel for tractors and trucks. I wondering though if the addition of the ether and castor oil will render it usable in the small two stroke model diesel engines (Four Stroke?). Thats why I am also worried about atomization. The rules of the national competition are to be able to have the car in pieces be able to fit in a box a little larger than a shoebox. Last year we used a tank from a paintball gun tank with a relief valve and ran the gases through a small double action toy steam engine the students found online. This coming year they want to also try and use the "Bio Diesel" fuel thats being developed and build a car but I am not knowleagable in model diesels and fuel only in two and four stroke gas and glow engines. Someone pointed me at a website where a book "all about diesels" was avaliable which I will be purchasing. I am lacking in knowledge in this area and can use all the help I can get.

Thanks for all your help. It is really helping these students and this project.



Hobbsy -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/16/2006 12:55:02 PM)

Ghost, you can purchase an ether, ignition enhancer and castor package from RedMax and add the fuel of your choice. I experimented with SoyBean Oil but could not get a good mix so that I could have a good idle and a good top end. I could get one or the other but not both on the same mix. I'm convinced that a little more experimenting and I can get it. Tell him what you are doing and he may custom blend something for you.



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/16/2006 1:57:28 PM)

I wonder if corn oil, sunflower, or canola oil would be thinner? Less calories though, I assume that means less BTU as well.



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/21/2006 5:53:47 AM)

Thanks guys I think I have found a direction for this project on the fuel and the engine. The last thought I have is the fact that the car has to drive itself in a straight line with no control or line to follow. Sort of a free flight car for 100 feet and the lane being about 3 foot wide. Would it be better to use a pusher or a puller type prop driven car, or, because of the need for sability use a clutch and gears?

Ghost Flyer



Jim Thomerson -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/21/2006 3:41:25 PM)

Maybe you could stretch a wire and have a couple of eyelets on the bottom of the car. Could you tether the car to a central point and have it go around in a circle? That's done with one form of model race cars. I'd go for tractor as there is a much better selection of props available.



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/21/2006 8:35:10 PM)

Once you start the run it cannot be touched or controlled in any way. It must make the run totally on its own. An onboard timer can be used to shut down the powerplant. The closest car to 100 feet wins. I wonder if GPS is allowed, hummmm.



Jim Thomerson -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/22/2006 1:52:03 AM)

I think, having had no experience with cars,[&o] that your car will try to run in circles because of engine torque. I would try both an adjustable air rudder and adjustable steering setting for the front wheels. Maybe also asymmetric distribution of weight. Lots of practice runs. If it were easy, everyone could do it!



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/23/2006 12:09:41 AM)

good call, I didn't think of the engine torque.



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/23/2006 1:17:26 PM)

quote:

I think, having had no experience with cars, that your car will try to run in circles because of engine torque.


Engine torque tries to roll the car, not yaw it. You may be thinking of P factor, which will not be present without a rudder. Nose gear equipped airplanes go straight with no tendency to turn till the nose wheel lifts off the ground.



Jim Thomerson -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/23/2006 6:37:39 PM)

Yes, that is why asymmetric distribution of weight might help. I'm not clear what having a rudder to make a car go straight has to do with P factor. We are trying not to turn the car. Another thing I would make adjustable is the engine thrust line, both up and down and left and right.



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/23/2006 8:56:02 PM)

quote:

I'm not clear what having a rudder to make a car go straight has to do with P factor.


I was confusing the spiral vortex effect of the propwash on the rudder with P factor. Also the to have no P-factor effect the prop needs to be straight or angled down slightly. At any rate a nose gear airplane seems to go straight till the nose gear is off the ground. A rudder is not required as it only complicates things. A crosswind will now affect the car with rudder.



downunder -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/24/2006 8:11:23 AM)

I'm thinking a small gyroscope connected to the front wheels for steering....



ghost flyer -> RE: Diesel Engine Information HELP (5/27/2006 6:43:29 AM)

I think a Gyroscope would be permitted in the rules.

I wonder if like one person suggested with the wheels on the ground the car would track straight? Tail draggers are always the ones that want to veer off.



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