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New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:03:26 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		HI Jack !.....I never saw Ralph fly, he seemed new at it. Wow Webra's turning 1:05's on long course. I always liked the Webra 40's. To bad AMA won't let us put the Nelson/Jett mufflers on other engines, that don't have them. Could you imagine a Thunder Tiger, with a Nelson/ jett muffler possibly turning a time like that. Talk about cutting costs. Most of us remember Doug Whittaker, he was a great competitor.I wonder what he is up to now days....Mike

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 26

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:11:00 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Mike I have no idea what's happened to him and his Viper Team of years past. They were a team that were very hard to beat back then.

You know Harold Sattler? Randy Smith? Loren Moen? Terrance Petachek(Developer of Neme-Q)and the rest of the Guys up iin this neck of the woods. Canadian's are some great pilots and great friends especially at the Social after LOL

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 27

missunderstanding - 2/16/2002 12:11:01 AM   
js3



Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Guys,

You've misunderstood MDP's meaning in his post. When he says [QUOTE] Another reason is to try and eliminate the thought, you cannot be competive with a hand made all wood kit. [/QUOTE] his meaning is that there is a perception that, because the winners have flown molded (Fred-A-Plane method) planes like the "Bird of Prey", "Neme-Q", and "Vortex" that those planes are faster than a basic old-style, foam and balsa planes like the "Scat Cat" and "Dodger". Mike (MDP) knows as well as anyone that you don't have to have a molded airplane to win. Witness his Revlution. It utilizes a solid foam core wing with balsa sheeting, and a built-up, balsa/ply fuselage. In the right hands, the Revlution is very competitive and every bit as fast as the newer composites. It's all in the thumbs, as "they" say.

Don,

[QUOTE]A composite wing made with all wood and no rohacell should be legal.[/QUOTE]

While the wording on this particular rule may be ambiguous and poorly written, my opinion is that your statement goes against the spirit of the APRA rules. It shouldn't matter if the composite wing is made with balsa or rohacell, it is still a composite (molded) wing and should not be allowed.

Just as a matter of semantics, every structure we build for R/C technically should be considered a composite because we use more than one material in construction. Be they built with balsa and foam, balsa and ply, or concrete and vegetables, they are all composite structures. This is moot though because I believe the spirit of the APRA rule is that the planes should be easy to build and inexpensive. The inexpensive part eliminates all of the “composite” birds.

Just my opinion.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 28

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:14:34 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		BTW Mike;
Have a Trick for you on your next fuse. Was fooling around when designing a new one. 1/8th side's with Fiberglass Sheet rock tape reinforcement. Very Light and extrememly Strong.

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 29

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:26:33 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		John,

The whole ruling out of composites just grates my nerves. I know why groups do it. But once you get used to composite planes, it is hard to accept wood planes, unless you just happen to like them.

My electric pylon planes are all molded composites, and the all molded composite F3D/30 that I use for 3 pole practice costs $157.77 retail and is of drastically better quality than a Predator.

You are right. Every plane is a composite. So why pick on one particular kind?

I wrote an email to Duane Gall last September about the lack of low priced ARF's being the real problem with racing. Maybe that's what the real problem was. People who didn't want to spend $400+ didn't have the same level of convenience. Now they have an option.

< Message edited by PylonWorld -- Feb 15 2002 7:50PM >

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 30

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:52:19 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		HI Don !....I know how you feel. The composites ($500 aircraft)are hard to beat for simplicity, and repeatability. I think if the cost of them came down, they would be allowed. The whole ruleing was made for the cost factor anyway.....The term composite aircraft, will need to be looked at a lot closer. I remember working construction, years ago, I worked with a composite crew, made of Sheet metal workers, and insulaters.hmm.....I think sooner, or later, the word composite, will be defined more clearly. A lot of the high dollar manufacturers, don't use Rholacell (spelling ?) any longer, they are using glassed balsa sheeting. Now another question, what about bagged wings ? Carbon/glass/ epoxied over foam ? This is not nearly as expensive as the molded wings, and not having to make a mold every time you change you airfoil, would cut the cost dramaticaly. We could all be part of the airfoil of the month club. We still have a way to go, before all the bugs a out. I used to offer a Composite wing for my REVO. I sold my rights to Lyle Larsen, and he uses it for his Bird Of Prey now....It was to expensive, even for me.......Mike

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 31

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 12:53:59 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Jack,

I'm using 1/8" sides on my new Quickie. I figured if they can use less than 3/32" on the Predator, why should I overbuild, too.

Where did you put the fiberglass sheet rock tape?

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 32

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 1:08:58 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Along the Whole inside with a 1/4" overlap on the Firewall to the Stab then I installed a mounting block and screw the Stab on. This was no control horns visable. Also a little trick on Aileron's is a 1" piece SuperCoverite as a full length hinge approx 3/32 gap underneath. Then a 1" piec of 1/64th covering the lower hinge line(Just an Overlap) This gives the wing when covered no visable trace of an Aileron other than a 1/32" cut on both sides. Basically same procedure as composites. If you want a picture I can show you the wing. Construction I have one setup for instructional purposes.

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 33

Wing Hinge - 2/16/2002 1:12:37 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Here is the hinge see the opening if not I'll do a close up.

Attachments
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(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 34

Better view - 2/16/2002 1:15:19 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		This is a little better

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(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 35

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 1:16:56 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Mike,

Rohacell is expensive all by itself. Just the Rohacell for the sheeting costs $50.

The V-Max uses Rohacell and even uses 1/4" Rohacell for the outer 12" of the CF capped spar on both ends of the wing.

Check out the prices for [URL=http://www.cstsales.com/Rohacell.htm]Rohacell[/URL].

Unless Lyle change recently, he's still using a structural foam for the skins on all of his composite planes, including the Bird of Prey.

Jerry Small uses 1/20" balsa for the skins on the Sidewinder, and I'm not sure what RVB is using on the Miss Ashley II.

Fiberglass over foam is nice. I had a Speed 400 plane with a bagged prepainted fiberglass skin over blue foam wing, and it was almost as nice as a molded wing.

The thing that is hard for me to get used to is the little dings that wood wings that are not covered with at least 3/4 oz fiberglass get. When I took the Predator wing out of the box, it already had (mostly) little dings all over it. And the fuselage and stab, too.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 36

composites. - 2/16/2002 1:29:07 AM   
js3



Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Don,

I agree with you completely about the composite planes! I have a Bird of Prey, a Neme-Q, and will soon have a new Miss Candace. I love them! In my opinion, there is no comparison between the composite planes and those built the old fashioned way.

Maybe it's just that I HATE monokote and my (lack of) ability to apply the stuff, but after a couple dozen flights, or one season in the sun, the covering just seems to bubble up, wrinkle, and the edges start to come loose.

The thing I don't like about the composite planes is the price. Not that I think they are overpriced! I think they are worth every penny I paid for them. If I went to that much work to make a plane for someone else, I'd want a good amount of cash too. It's just that if I loose two planes in a season, and let's face it, many of use loose that many at one time or another, I cannot afford to replace them.

I also agree with you that low-cost ARFs, even if they need substantial modification to be made race worthy, are good for racing in general.

I just remember the first race I attended last season. Of the three planes in the very first heat of 424, two were Neme-Qs and the third was (I think) a V-Max! That is around $1300 on the line in airframes only! That is not the way to encourage a newbie to join us! The perception is that a $450 airplane is necessary to win.

I believe banning composites in 424 is a good thing but in a way what I really like to see is people flying Predators or other low-cost planes, winning heats and races against the likes of the Neme-Q. Then people would see that it really is pilot skill and not the equipment that matters most.

About the F3D/30... I've seen two of them, and while they are probably worth the $150 price tag, I would be sorely disappointed with it if I were to pay any more than that for one. There is no comparison in quality between it and the planes made by Lyle Larson, Harold Sattler, Terence Palaschuk, Chuck Bridge, Tim Lawlor, etc. (Sorry if I left anyone out here)

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 37

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 1:37:05 AM   
Scorpionjack



Posts: 656
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Minot, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Atleast you spelled Terrance's name right he will get me for that in Canada : )

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 38

New 428 Rules - 2/16/2002 1:38:25 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		John,

You're correct that the F3D/30 is not in the same league as any of the $300+ composite planes.

The first thing I do is add some tape and polyester to the fuselage. And the weave shows through on the fuselage in a lot of cases. The wing doesn't ding easily, but because there currently is no fiberglass cloth on the back side of the sheeting, the balsa in the wing will crack if bumped hard enough or if somebody gets to tight of a grip on it. That's why I carry the plane to the line and get someone else to hold it by the fin when I'm sport flying, or flying the course from a long ways away.

But even though it's not in the same league as the high end planes, the Predator is not even in the same league as the F3D/30.

I have at least 4 people flying F3D/30's at the field now, and I think 5 or 6 have them. Everyone loves the ease of getting one together.

< Message edited by PylonWorld -- Feb 15 2002 8:44PM >

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 39

Re: composites. - 2/16/2002 1:41:04 AM