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Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 9:45 AM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Pictured is how I made up an electric starter for 1/2A using old electric motor/gearbox parts. The body is just a plastic pipe connector with one end bored to the size of the motor can with a snug fit. The switch is from Radio Shack. This rig gave me good service for about 8 years but as it was run on 12 volts direct, it finally gave up. Not bad really for the many, many starts it provided. Yes, it's rated at probably 7.2 volts but when used as a starter, it runs only in short bursts.

I'm hoping someone has a junker but still good motor they don't need. Cash, trade or some sort of service in exchange. Yes, I've done a search in the classifieds and have placed a wanted ad but what the heck.

The motor needed has a 35mm diameter and the pinion is 14T and 13.5mm diameter. I can always use the old pinion so in that case, the motor shaft must be 3mm.





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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 1:07 PM   
flyinrog



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Status: offline 		The can motors at Tower are pretty cheap, they have a 400 7.2volt motor for $5.79 and a 600 7.2 volt for $8.49 not sure if thats what you need ,,but I'd check into that before I'd bother with ads they're just too cheap..I'd send you one if I had it but mines in my starter and Ptulmer gave me that one....Rog

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 1:16 PM   
mclintock



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Status: offline 		You may have already tried, but maybe the commutator is just blued and needs to be shined up.. gotta do some tab bending to get the end bell/brusholder off, but it's trash anyway.


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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 2:50 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Clint,

You may be right. I just assumed the windings got fried,, maybe not, I'll check. Thanks.

Rog,

Good suggestions but I guess my problem is that I don't know what to call the motor I have. I just know it's ideal, fits the housing I made etc. The other prob is that to buy a one off 10 dollar item from Tower and the like costs two to three times after you deal with freight, customs, taxes etc. A killer when you don't have an LHS nearby.

Meanwhile, I've found that if I overprime I can hand start eventually. I used to be pretty sanctimonious about using an electric starter but no more. Something like going to automatic after driving a stick for so many years. Must be gettin' old.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 3:07 PM   
SGC


 

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Status: offline 		its the same dia as my 540 buggy motor but mines got a 3.2mm shaft

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 3:51 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		I know its going the wrong way,
but if you order a elect car motor(540) and a 7cell nicad pack the shipping/overhead is less wasteful... but I know the plan is to spend less, not spend more to justify shipping. Then you'd have a handy pocket starter

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 5:08 PM   
GrahamC


 

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Status: online 		Hey Andy,

I haven't seen you since I move from Timmins about 5 years ago. I didn't get invovled with the RC club there til about a year before I left. I was playing around with electric sailplanes at the time. I haven't been to Timmins in a couple of years but we do get there regularily to visit our kids and grandkids and to pick the grandkids up to spend the summer here.

Your motor looks like a 540 size motor just as others have noted. I might just have something sitting in one of my "parts" boxes that you would be welcome to, I will have a look tonight. Might even be able to drop it off at your door as we might be heading that way soon for a visit.


email off list you like planophore @ aei.ca

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada


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ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Pictured is how I made up an electric starter for 1/2A using old electric motor/gearbox parts. The body is just a plastic pipe connector with one end bored to the size of the motor can with a snug fit. The switch is from Radio Shack. This rig gave me good service for about 8 years but as it was run on 12 volts direct, it finally gave up. Not bad really for the many, many starts it provided. Yes, it's rated at probably 7.2 volts but when used as a starter, it runs only in short bursts.

I'm hoping someone has a junker but still good motor they don't need. Cash, trade or some sort of service in exchange. Yes, I've done a search in the classifieds and have placed a wanted ad but what the heck.

The motor needed has a 35mm diameter and the pinion is 14T and 13.5mm diameter. I can always use the old pinion so in that case, the motor shaft must be 3mm.







< Message edited by GrahamC -- 5/11/2006 5:09 PM >

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 7:14 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the info guys,, a 540 motor it is then, and yes, likely 3.2mm shaft. Had to eyeball it, the callipers wouldn't fit between the gear and the case.

GRAHAM, yes, I remember. That sailplane of yours was pretty neat,,, almost got me started in electric,,, ALMOST.

We'll have to meet at Timmies and then go flying. I have a spot for electrics ( and gliders) to die for and it's all MINE, mine, I tell you!!! You'll see. (Think sod farm).

You guys are great, many thanks.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 7:23 PM   
andrew b



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Status: offline 		Strip the motor down and have a look, if the winding HAS gone, rewind it with radio shack magnet wire and add a few more turns (if thats possible).

A 7.2 volt motor thats run on 12 volts is a "performance" motor, a 7.2 volt motor thats run on 18 volts is called a "contest" motor


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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 7:41 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Andrew,

That'll be an interesting challenge. I assume I'd have to get the same diameter wire? If the wire I get is smaller, what will I get, what will I have to change?

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/11/2006 11:37 PM   
vicman



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Status: offline 		My first thought was an old battery drill motor.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 3:00 AM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		wasn't there a vid of Uncle Dave Bronk starting a motor with his drill?

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 5:03 AM   
Bipe Flyer



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Status: offline 		It looks like a 540 with removable brushes. Those two springs on the end bell hold the brushes. You can get new brushes at the LHS. http://www.greathobbies.com/products/productinfo.php?prod_id=TRI4080 There should be a couple of screws on the end bell. If you loosen those you can turn the bell a little to adjust the timing.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 6:02 AM   
BMatthews



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Status: offline 		It's also possible that the brushes have worn but are still good but the tension springs have bottomed in their slots so the actual brushes are not pressing on the commutator any more.

If it's survived all this time on the 12volts then I'm pretty sure that it's not the windings. Far more likely to be brush or comutator related. Pull the brushes and lood through the slots with a light at the commutator. It'll be black but check the separation slots for arc erosion. If it's not too bad you can clean it up and install new brushes. If it's too far gone then you'll need another motor. Ive got one that looks a lot like your motor. What's the diameter of the whole shell?

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 8:15 AM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Tried to get it apart a short while ago. The end bell is held in place with two bent over tabs into slots. I put a screw driver against the tabs but the only thing that gave was the softer metal making up the brush channels. That bent over nicely and now the brushes won't come out.

Only thing I can see is to grind off the tabs, spot some new timing that might even give more power, make new tabs and see what happens.

But while I was fooling with it, it occurred to me what I might have done wrong. Normally I drive the starter off of my 12 volt field box. During the first season of use, I found the Radio Shack switch was failing prematurely. What happens is kind of a safety feature with this starter. If I get any kind of hydraulic lock, the starter will just stall. This would happen from time to time and to save the switch, I installed a 20A fuse. This has blown occasionally telling me that the whole system works pretty well. And it did for a good five years. Never a bent rod even when starting diesels.

One day last week, after a full morning of flying, and a full afternoon of engine testing, the battery was getting weak. So, genius that I am, I set up my 12 volt car battery charger to drive my starter. All went well till I got the inevitable stalls trying to turn over a VERY tight .074. But this time, there was no fuse in the circuit and the starter gave off an odd kind of noise. You know that sound effect they used when Dr. Frankenstein revived his creature with 20 million volts? That's the one.

Ah hell, I heard it and ignored it. A couple of these and next thing you know, the starter is kaffing on me. I didn't make the connection (pun) because, well, the fuse was supposed to blow, you know? THAT fuse is in the field box, NOT on the starter,,, dummy.

Next time, I'm going to put a fuse in the line. But next time, I also won't use the battery charger.

Bruce, the can diameter is 35mm.

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< Message edited by 1705493-AndyW -- 5/12/2006 8:17 AM >

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 3:51 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		Smoked it

The limited amp suply from the small batt (& Fuse) was saving your motor from getting a full dose of 12v BigAmps.
When an electric motor gets loaded, it draws more amps than freewheeling, lots & lots more- the stall & fuseblow for hyrdolock.

Get a high turn number 540 motor to take the higher voltage better, low turns= lower resistance = massive amps if available. They use the low turn motors to let the most amps possible thru since they are limited to 6 or 7 cell battpack voltages. Most amps possible is a bad thing when you aply a Buick Battery with 400CCAmps

Another plan would be to get a 12v circuitbreaker rather than fuse, it resets when it cools rather than you reset the fuse with a trip to the parts store...

That is a nice way to handle hydrolock though- Torque Limited Starter by fuse amperage. Neato, just slip a 5amp in for 049 work

< Message edited by KidEpoxy -- 5/12/2006 3:53 PM >

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 4:25 PM   
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Status: offline 		Check out your local hobby shop and pick up a new rebuildable motor. Then you will have a starter that will last a life time. Just take the old motor along. Do you know what the motor came out of? It is probably an old stock 27t motor. They are no longer around much due to the re-buildable motors.

To clean up the comm and brushes pick up one of the little fiberglass pen sander stick refills. Shrink a bit of shrink tubing and leave just a little of the end of the stick out so you can insert it into the brush hood and while holding the stick on the comm, spin the motor with your other hand until the comm is clean. It's that easy. Then use the stick to clean off the brushes. The motor won't be as good as new, but it will run alot better.

Tell ya what, I'll pm you and get some info. I probably have an old motor that still has alot of life left in it.

See ya,
Rod

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/12/2006 4:26 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, smoked it. Actually, the 20 Amp worked well for .049 to .074,, somehow. About one out of twenty stalls would blow the fuse and they're cheap enough and stalls were only occasional.

Interesting thing though. On glow, the Norvels hand start readily enough if the engine is well run in and you slobber it with prime. But on diesel? Nope, no way. My bursitis tells me that if I want to keep flying these little guys as diesel, I better get that starter fixed. Not a prob, all my tanks use neoprene tubing by default now and switching back and forth is a simple deal.

Then again, the diesels start without a lot of fuss on spring starters.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af4dQNa60_w

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/15/2006 9:59 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Problem solved. I called my LDHS (Long Distance Hobby Shop) and they advised me that they had a 550 motor for 12 bucks. Slightly longer case and high turns to handle the higher voltage. Exactly what I need and cheap.

Thanks to all for the help.

A side note.

Because I have no LHS, I have to buy everything long distance. It's all too easy to go on line and with a bit of mouse work find what you need. But what if what you don't know what you need or what to call it or that there might be something better? And even calling a Big Box type hobby supplier, while you can get good prices and most times good service, too many times the reverse is true. Just now I had the kind of experience that restores my faith in the LHS (if you have one). Greg at Leading Edge Hobbies in Kingston is courteous, helpful, knowledgeable and even made the effort to recommend something better and CHEAPER,,, of all things. As far as I'm concerned, he's MY LHS from now on.

Again guys, thanks for the help, will be running stinky power again in a few days.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/22/2006 9:54 PM   
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Status: offline 		I went the commercial route with a Sullivan Hornet starter plus an old 10 cell 1300 maH nicad pack I made in 2002 which is still good and can be fast charged for a portable rig. I used 6 tie wraps.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/22/2006 11:44 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Somiss1,

That's a good idea, that cord sometimes gets in the way. The starter I have was made up before LM's or Sullivan's. Miller made one back then but theirs was, I believe, direct drive spinning at a speed too fast for my liking. So I used their cup and rubber inserts. As it turns out, Norvels like to spin fast to start and that has to do with their Revlite configuration.

I may just adapt mine like yours. Many thanks for the idea.





< Message edited by 1705493-AndyW -- 5/22/2006 11:46 PM >

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/24/2006 6:03 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		cp1300 cells for starting:
I used an 8 cell cp1300 to start upto TT GP42 & OS46, and Magnum 52 fourstroke
Was a little tough, just had to back the prop off the compression stroke before hitting the starter... just enough to get some momentum prior to compression

just an FYI for ya'll interested in them cp1300 but want to save a buck or two.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/24/2006 6:26 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks KidE,

I have a Norvel .15 and a .40 that'll be happy to hear that. Interestingly, both the .15 and the .40 are NOT set up as tightly as the .06. I used my Sullivan mini-starter on those. but if this one works, that makes one less extra item in a, getting heavier all the time, field box.

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/24/2006 7:11 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		woah
I guess I didn't mention that I am using a magnum starter for a 40, not a sullivan (burnt a sully on a AP15 hydrolock)
I was commenting on the cells, not the starter torque or amp rating

I will say that the 40size starter does a fine job on the Novel 074 with just 8 cells. I was concerened that the lower voltage wont spin up to a high enough rpm for 1/2A... well, 8cell cp1300 40starter did fine, just turn the rubber insert around & shove it on.

Hope this clears up my post

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RE: Electric starter for 1/2A - 5/24/2006 7:19 PM   
AndyW


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks KidE,

Gonna try it anyway just for fun. Fuse in the line, of course. On the other hand, both the .15 and the .40 hand start quite easily so maybe there's no point. But maybe on diesel.



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