RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/19/2008 9:35 PM

GrayUK

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Its not a conspiracy of silence (The truth is out there!)
I just feel that as David raised the issue it is up to him to 'name and shame'.
I am sure he will, he is very safety 'aware'

Paul

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/19/2008 10:12 PM

Strykaas

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Was the crash linked to a nearby UFO ?

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/19/2008 10:34 PM

westwind two

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I think the cause of some of these strange secret failures might be the result of a UFO from the planet Uranus.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 1:06 AM

PeterDays

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Not Jet but RC related

Death in a RC Helicopter Accident:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/18/model-helicopter-kills-child-in-brazil-1/

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 5:08 AM

Boomerang1

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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3540268/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm

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Some people would call David Gladwin an 'alarmist'. I would NOT be one of them. - John.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 2:27 PM

uncljoe

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Boomerang1
Thank You for the Info.
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 2:49 PM

Gordon Mc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomerang1

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3540268/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm

Post 70

Some people would call David Gladwin an 'alarmist'. I would NOT be one of them. - John.

Just FYI in case anyone finds it useful : If you go to the post that you want to refer to, and click on the "Post # <num>" link at the bottom right-hand side of the post then you will get a pop-up window that shows the URL for that specific post. Copy-pasting that URL gives a slightly cleaner way of refering people to the post. In this case, it's http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4739106

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 2:52 PM

JetCatJimmy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: westwind two

I think the cause of some of these strange secret failures might be the result of a UFO from the planet Uranus.

UFOs are flying out of Uranus now!? Oh MY!

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 3:22 PM

David Gladwin

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I dont want anyone to speculate at all, but after the hassle and personal insults I received after (objectively and correctly, it was hardly rocket science) ) identifying the BobCat elevator problem and the Mig 29 hydraulic problems, amongst others I don't, at my time of life, want to be on the receiving end of that nonsense again, but wanted to know your ideas on how best to handle the situation. something I don't think can just be swept under the carpet.

Heres my view: We are indeed fortunate to be able to indulge in this hobby ALMOST without any outside interence, that freedom should be treasured and guarded. We are virtually self regulating and that means we must regulate ourselves actively, and that in turn means being active in dealing with any problems we encounter and proactive in anticipating potential problems to ensure the highest degree of safety. There is nothing wimpish or sissie about that as I can assure you all after almost 40 years of operating military and civil jets, it is the way it is in aviation.

I dont see model jet ops. as all that different and I have tried to bring those relevant aspects of fullsize safety culture in to model jet operations. In turn that means discussing and identifying problems and FIXING them BEFORE we have a big accident which just COULD have us all shut down, crying in our beers AFTER the event is pointless. I care greatly for this hobby and its future and I have NO interest in damaging ANY manufacturer whatever they, or you might suggest BUT we just can't pretend that all is well when we know there are problems in our midst.

In safe operation of all jets structural integrity is of the essence and some, a minority, of what I have seen and heard of does not impress. The model which broke up and crashed on Saturday was a new version Eurosport and the internal wing structure was seen to be poor. (can't be denied, lots of witnesses and photos, bits of wreckage fell in the pits) The main spar was undersize and not glued to the skin at all in some places. Now we all know that hundreds of Eurosports have made thousands of safe flights without any problem. Most of also know that a number have broken up in flight, wings failing, fuselages exploding (hardly surprising if one examines the internal airflow of early Euros) I have also seen another model from this manufacturer, a Lightning lose its stab. and crash quite near me , the internal structure of the stab. was seen to be totally inadequate, botched, so clearly this not an isolated problem. My own Euro wings had some serious flaws, now fixed, and as I still own it I have more than a passing interest, so am well qualified to comment, just as I was with the BobCat problem I built and own two of them, with over 450 flights between them and not a single problem.

The question now is just how many more Euros are out there with suspect internal structures, potential failures and crashes, it is impossible to examine them without destroying them so what action should, must, be taken ? Or, knowing of this potential problem do we do nothing and take a risk that we will get away with it, again ?

The least C-ARF can do is to replace this model FOC , there is NO doubt its loss was caused by defective factory work, and assure us all that steps have been taken at the factory to eliminate, as far as is humanly possible, this problem in the future.

So lets hear your constructive comments on how we can deal with this and similar problems; by all means disagree with me but tell my your better approach, my mind is open, but please, please leave the comments about UFOs and Uranus for another thread, its a waste of bandwith here !

Regards, David Gladwin.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 3:50 PM

Geoff White

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Its quite simple David.

If you claim, and I have no doubt you are telling the truth, that you can see the manufacturing defect by looking at the wreckage then the owner of the model needs to get his CARF rep to also inspect the wreckage and to confirm or deny what you and Paul claim. Assuming it is confirmed then it over the CARF to respond.

Geoff.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 3:56 PM

David Gladwin

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That solves THAT problem Geoff, but what about the greater issue of other Euros out there with perhaps similar deficiencies ?
Regards, David.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 4:03 PM

Geoff White

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Well if it proves that it was a manufacturing defect then I would say CARF have a duty to ensure it is broadcast widely so all owners can inspect their models. And they get the message out using a combination of website/reps and forums.

As it is, if I owned a Euro I would be looking very carefully at the structure, regardless of the outcome, but people should be doing this routinely regardless of model type.

Geoff.

< Message edited by Geoff White -- 8/20/2008 4:21 PM >

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 4:45 PM

Gordon Mc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geoff White

Well if it proves that it was a manufacturing defect then I would say CARF have a duty to ensure it is broadcast widely so all owners can inspect their models.

Since David stated that:

is impossible to examine them without destroying them

how do you propose that owners inspect their models ?

Gordon

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 5:01 PM

Geoff White

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Oops, Just read again his posting and I missed that very important bit of info

. In that case I have no idea.

Geoff.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 5:12 PM

Gordon Mc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geoff White

Oops, Just read again his posting and I missed that very important bit of info .

Doncha just hate it when that happens ? (Not that I ever miss anything important....)

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 9:55 PM

Strykaas

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In many areas, customers are made aware of serious product defects, where FOC inspection and servicing is possible. It happens to life size cars, to radio gear (e.g. Multiplex Tx), etc... Why shouldn't it happen with RC aircraft kits ? I think it will happen as soon as a kit manufacturer is sued to court and convicted guilty after someone is killed. You can also imagine that replacing all sold kits for free would be damn too expensive for these companies... IMHO, the best that can be done is to do what you've done, advertising facts, taking and sharing pictures, so that the customer decides what he buys. These companies shall also have to prove that theirs kits meet the quality requirements for turbine powered models ops. That begins with web sites showing pictures of the R/C aircraft internals. What's hidden inside ? huh. However, it's not a proof that all kits are OK. Here comes ISO quality standard certifications that ensure (or should I say favor ?) consistency across kits production. Which companies selling R/C a/c kits are ISO certified today ? None I think. Maybe we could start with that and simply enforce, though AMA, that turbine powered kits shall meet ISO xxxx quality level. Several R/C products manufaturers have jumped on the bandwagon over the last few years, engine manufacturers especially to my mind (MVVS, ...).

But what could be said about the scratched built models ? Shall we ban them ? Or shall we rely on builder's ability to build strong enough models ? Well, tough issue in the land of the free. The power, speed and inherent damage potential (kinetic energy in fact), of turbine powered models just put them into a specific category in my view. They can't be flown like a usual a/c nor flown by mean pilots ... In France, R/C aircraft categories (small, average, big) are based on weight, and not kinetic energy, and as you all know, it goes with the square of speed, so that relatively small models may fall into the "big" category... The reason for the weight-based categoy is obviously the unbiased criteria (what is the max speed of your model ? huh) taken into account, I cannot imagine official papers based on practical top end speed in fact... But why not think of speed ranges ?

David, you should post these pictures if you have any. One of such pictures is on the very first page of the lighting build thread, and is highlighted by SJN on the same page.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 10:48 PM

Airforce7

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Looks like C-ARF already utilizes ISO and QC standards judging by their jobs page! What about the rest?

http://www.composite-arf.com.hk/ar/LoadHtml?file=carf.htm

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 11:25 PM

JUMPSTREET66

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David ,
I could not agree with you more on the standards. I watched a guy on utube(rc jet crash videos) run his jetpowered aircraft off the paved runway while trying to take off.And to my amazement, did not return the aircraft to him and check the turbine powered aircraft out .(which would have been done in the "real world")He took off and the aircraft did come apart in flight as it passed the flight line. I have no idea if the catastrophic event was related to the aircraft leaving the runway. Who knows . . . ? No-one was harmed this time. He did however,loose aleast $10,000.00 or there abouts.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 11:28 PM

Gordon Mc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Strykaas
One of such pictures is on the very first page of the lighting build thread, and is highlighted by SJN on the same page.

Dontcha just love how the pic of the missing glue also clearly shows the "QC Pass" sticker ??? I guess hat means that the glue is meant to be missing. Or something.

As for ISO … much of that is simply not worth the paper it's written on IMO. From what I recall of my foray into those matters at a previous employer, ISO certification says that you have documented some process, NOT that you actually follow it.

Gordon

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 11:42 PM

uncljoe

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ISO certification says that you have documented some process, NOT that you actually follow it.

Gordon you are so right . We had to implement (ISO 9000) in our department but other's said that we all ready had procedures in place which worked & realized it was a total waste of money& time.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/20/2008 11:49 PM

Strykaas

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Please note I have said 'favor' instead of "ensure". Many huge companies spend big money just to get that certifcation, it just can't be useless ... IMHO, the global certification trend does come from the USA.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 12:34 AM

Gordon Mc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Strykaas
Many huge companies spend big money just to get that certifcation, it just can't be useless

The reason that my prior company spent a bunch of money on the certification, is that they wanted to bid on a contract that was only open to ISO 9000 certified companies.

We all knew it would do absolutely nothing to improve our quality, but when contracts are awarded by bureaucrats who blindly follow a checklist without understanding what the items on that checklist actually mean, that means that we have to waste a bunch of money just like they did.

Gordon

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 9:27 AM

HarryC

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IMO the ISO 9000 industry is a scam for the ISO 9000 industry's benefit. My last employer decided to get ISO 9000 so that it would be the first in its field to have it and would use it purely for marketing to claim it had one over on all the opposition. All we did was end up making forms to track the editing history of the forms we used! It was an utter waste of an awful lot of time. The highly paid "consultant" who was brought in to help us said we had done it the wrong way, instead of trying to get ISO 9000 on the core business we should just have applied for ISO 9000 on the marketing dept literature which is dead easy to get and has less value than worthless but still allows you to put ISO 9000 on your brochures and stationery.

The basis of the ISO is that you set a standard, measure your performance against it, and hold review meetings to make the performance measurement meet the standard that you set. It is perfectly valid to set a standard of "we will not answer a phone until it has been ringing for at least 2 minutes and will then be rude to the customer who is calling". We then measure how long phones are left ringing and how rude our staff are. We hold a review meeting every 6 monhs to identify which staff are picking up the phone too quickly or are not being rude enough, and retrain them. Hooray, we get awarded ISO 9000.

ISO 9000 is a worthless scam, it's a white collar crime. It doesn't tell you that the goods or services are of high quality, indeed it could tell you that the firm meets or exceeds its own targets for being bad!

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 12:01 PM

David Gladwin

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Pictures:

In the first picture you can see the spar at the tip is too shallow and the glue bead shows that the skin has not been contacted. Notice the difference in dimensions of two spar sections.

Second picture shows a nice glue bead, but no skin contact, spar is too shallow.

Third and fourth picture again shows nice glue bead at wing root but no contact with skin, spar too shallow.

Fifth picture shows the spar at root and the skin, showing lack of contact with glue bead.

Well, there's the evidence, make your own judgements but this is a minimalist structure, glass faced balsa spars, no carbon reinforcement, in my opinion the structural strength must be seriously compromised and this led to the wing failing in bending mode as G was applied to recover from the reversal.

So the question is, How many other wings are similarly compromised and as someone has just mentioned in an email its not just CARF ther are a LOT of cheap Asian products out there some of which we KNOW , as shown in an earlier picture are marginal at best.

That said I have examined the internal structure of my Airworld and PST composite models and they are absolutely fine, the wing of the AW Hawk is built like a tank.

Air safety is for real. Just after posting my earlier note I walked the dog through this village near RAF Syerston on which bits of Jet Provost had fallen after a collision overhead, and I walked near to the field over which a Vulcan broke up in 1960 at an air Display when the wing skin seperated. Switching on the TV , I was greeted by news of the Spanair (a SAS company) MD82 crash, which killed 150. Just last week I flew on a SAS MD82 from CPH to LHR. Things get a bit close to home somtimes !

So, please discuss the Eurosport failure situation, its a tricky one, but one I dont think can just be ignored.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 12:33 PM

schroedm

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Not being drawn on this but as of this morning, UK time, the factory was completely unaware of this incident.

May be an idea for whoever this happened to to contact the rep it was purchased through so it can be escalated to the factory before the nails are hammered into the coffin on this forum.

David, I understand your concerns and where you are coming from (aiframe/general safety is paramount) but it does seem you are over vocal whenever it is Comp-ARF related

I'm sure this is just coincidence but I just don't remember you suggesting all these draconian measures when noses were falling off of 250mph £10k sport jets

Regards,
Mark

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