RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
    Search This Thread  
 
Printable Version


NEW!! Boomerang Nano Landing gear Pro-Lynx - RTF
Seller:  digitech
Details:   $450.00   |  9/24/2009   |  Classified Ad
We will rotate YOUR AD in this spot if you select "Forum Featured" when placing or editing your ad!

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Jets >> RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Page: <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 1:07 PM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 2265
Score: 100
Joined: 2/5/2002
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Mark, I am vocal on those issues which directly concern me and of which I have first hand knowledge. I was THERE and watching the jet when it crashed, I watched the debris flutter down into the pits. where I was standing. I was at St Athan and watched and was ready to run when the stab failed on the Lightning. I own and have built and have first hand knowledge of the Euro structure, which on my model had structural deficiencies. I think I am well qualified and entitled to speak about the issue. You may disagree.

I spoke up on the BVM BobCat pitch contol problem, it directly concerned me. I have built two BCs and have hundreds of flights on them, I still fly them with complete confidence in the structural integity and pitch control system.

I was not present when the Ultra Bandit nose failed , I have never built one and know nothing of the structure and little of the circumstances. Therefore NOT qualified to comment.

No doubt a sa rep you have vested interest in keeping this quiet. Be grateful you are not dealing with more serious consequences of this failure.

Now what are YOUR ideas for ensuring that we avoid similar failures ?

regards, David Gladwin.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to schroedm)
       Post #: 326

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 1:44 PM   
Chris Smith



Posts: 498
Score: 100
Joined: 5/23/2004
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Berea KY, Clarksville/Adams, TN, USA
Status: offline 		David,

The points you are trying to make are spot on. I also view things from a professional aviation culture, and some others I know that are not aviators do as well. I feel it does mean I'm on the look-out. In a way it is a burden to be oriented at safety in this way, but I don't think being less aware would make the sport more fun.

In other words, ignorance would not be bliss. From what I've seen in jet modeling, there is probably more "it isn't going to happen to me" syndrome than there should be.
What you are advocating is more pro-active safety, rather than reactive.

Chris

_____________________________

Fly Army

Hide Signatures

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 327

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 7:23 PM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 2265
Score: 100
Joined: 2/5/2002
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Thanks Chris, very much appreciated. If you, as a professional, can endorse that it is the way we do things, then that is most satisfying for me. Perhaps your endorsement will convince some that I have no hidden agenda but someone has to push this safety issue if our hobby and our freedom ito operate, unrestricted by legislation, is to prosper.

Lets hope we can spread the gospel, doing it right and safely is almost always just as easy as doing it wrong, and so much more rewarding, too.

Just heard there was a Hawk crash not far from here, RAF Cranwell. After the mid- air at Coventry, the Madrid crash, not a good week for aviation safety. Both guys in the Hawk ejected safely but the aircraft crashed very near the tower

Thank you again.

regards,

David.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Chris Smith)
       Post #: 328

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 8:43 PM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		David
As you know I am with you on this 100%.
It is a difficult one, if you own a plane (ARTF) from any supplier; you have to 'believe' they have built it right!
If you have to half destroy it to inspect it then it is no good to anyone.
The issue with the Wing was a manufacturing/design problem. The spar not being tall enough prevented bonding.
Due to the way these are built it cannot really be inspected after gluing, so an inspection stage needs to be introduced before the top skin is attached.

Having worked in design engineering all my working life, I know what steps, we, as a company take to ensure we have analysed as much as we feel possible all failure modes. Much of what we do is life critical; it can be military or maybe medical.

In the medical field we manufacture respirators often used on newborn babies. If we have a failure due to a design fault or manufacturing defect and cannot prove we had done all we could be reasonably expected to do, then we are in for one hell of a legal battle!
It is down to the manufacturers to be Pro-active and undertake proper FMEA's on their designs.

This would have three effects.
1) Safer designs
2) More sales.
2) A degree of 'due care and diligence' should they ever be taken to court due to a death related to a structural failure proven to be a design or manufacturing defect.

It would be beneficial to them and us.

My 2 Cents…

Paul


_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 329

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 8:53 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not sure about the "more sales" part.

The extra QA/QC costs money, which means that the price of the product must include that. Time and time again a very substantial number of people on this forum have demonstrated that they would rather have a poorer quality product that is cheap, than a higher quality product that costs more.

Gordon

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 330

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 9:30 PM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		It costs less to build something correctly and not have to put it right afterwards.
Care in manufacture and design is much cheaper than correcting errors, losing sales and possibly ending up in court!
More sales come from confidence in the product standards, brand and reliability.

If cost was all that mattered we would all drive around in the cheapest car we can buy, as we know, this is not what happens.
Quality is the key to business.

Faults cost sales in the end, no matter what your name or brand is, that is what killed the UK Motorcycle industry and almost wiped out the car industry in Europe and USA.
I wonder how many of the ARTF companies actually employ qualified engineers (contract or full time) to examine the design, structure and manufacturing processes involved?

I hope it never comes to it, but I feel we have been very luck so far.
Lets not rely on luck!

Paul


_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 331

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 10:14 PM   
JetCatJimmy



Posts: 358
Score: 100
Joined: 3/15/2007
Last Login: 11/5/2009
From: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I agree with your point, to a point. There is a forum here that has a massive following with pilots modifying a prop-powered Bobcat copy and putting a turbine on the back. My concern here is that no only are people with less experience moving into this field, cutting corners as they build their first turbine on a budget, but also that there is a lack of respect for your airframe when you can replace the entire plane for a fraction of the cost of the turbine that powers it.

There are many highly qualified builders out there that will undoubtedly make sure their airframes are secure before taking a chance on harming someone or something, but there are just as many people who are budget builders 'driven' to buy this 'model' as an entry into this section of the hobby. I for one, would feel uncomfortable flying such a blatant ripoff of another's hard work and design. Many of these tried and true airframes are built on the backs of much hard-learned experience. Those improvements that lie beneath the skin will not easily be transferred to another model - forcing other pilots to make the same mistakes without knowing that these roads have already been paved by the more expensive model. My 2 cents.

< Message edited by JetCatJimmy -- 8/21/2008 10:20 PM >

_____________________________

Jimmy
BVM Bobcat - P80

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 332

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/21/2008 10:37 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrayUK
It costs less to build something correctly and not have to put it right afterwards.
Care in manufacture and design is much cheaper than correcting errors, losing sales and possibly ending up in court!


Do you really think that the companies building the various China ARFs etc would ever end up paying a crapload of money due to a court case in a country like the US ? I don't.

I expect that if they ever got held legally accountable at all (which in itself seems highly unlikely) then hey'd simply close up as Brand X and reappear a few weeks later as Brand Y. Look at how many times Anton has started up a new factory when he had fights with the old one, and you'll see how willing some are to walk away from their prior problems and start over.

quote:


More sales come from confidence in the product standards, brand and reliability.


Uh, yeah …

Years ago at least every second jet you saw at a jet rally here in the US was from one of those "high standards, high reliability, recognised brand" companies called BVM. Now maybe one in ten here is a BVM model, and the cheap China ARFs proliferate. While some of us still value high quality to the point of being willing to pay noticeably more for it, we seem to be a distinct minority.

Most people seem to be very willing to accept the lower quality as part of the cost of getting cheaper goods. I just had this exact conversation with one of my buddies who's assembling a China-ARF .. he started off cussing about the poor quality of workmanship, with crappy assembly and missing or incorrectly placed blocks for control horns etc. (which could be catastrophic if the error were not caught) etc … but then he said ".. but that's the cost we accept for having cheap-ass China ARFs – if this thing were as high quality as a JMP model hardly anyone would be able to afford one !"

quote:


If cost was all that mattered we would all drive around in the cheapest car we can buy, as we know, this is not what happens.


The car anaology has numerous flaws. For starters, people buying the more expensive cars typically have them comprehensively insured ; as a result, people don't tend to look at the extra money they spend on their higher-quality car as something that may well be totally lost any time they drive the car. With our toys, I constantly hear people saying things like "Given that I'm just gonna stuff it and lose it at some point anyway, I'd rather lose $x than $2x so the cheap one is fine by me even if it is lower quality". Also, most car companies have serious assets that you can go after if things went wrong ; a China-ARF sweatshop on the other hand...

Don't get me wrong – I'm all for there being improved quality in the products that we are all using .. I am simply dubious of the claim that higher quality will necessarily mean more sales, because I don't see hordes of people ditching their Feibao / Jet Eagle Models / Xtremejets / whatever cheap China ARF preferences to buy JMP, BVM, Airworld / whatever - if anything, I've been steadily wathcing the exact opposite happen with people ditching higher quality in favor of immediate cost savings.

Gordon

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- 8/21/2008 10:43 PM >

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to JetCatJimmy)
       Post #: 333

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 12:09 AM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Have to say...i do not know WHAT you are defending?
Crap quality?
Crap manufacture?
Crap designs?

Who wins?

_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 334

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 12:10 AM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline

_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 335

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 12:52 AM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrayUK

Have to say...i do not know WHAT you are defending?


Huh ??? Where on earth did this 'defending' stuff come from ???

Gordon



_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 336

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 9:14 AM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Thats what it looks like in your post...

_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 337

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 9:53 AM   
Boomerang1



Posts: 1209
Score: 100
Joined: 6/24/2005
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

I agree with your point, to a point. There is a forum here that has a massive following with pilots modifying a prop-powered Bobcat copy and putting a turbine on the back. My concern here is that no only are people with less experience moving into this field, cutting corners as they build their first turbine on a budget, but also that there is a lack of respect for your airframe when you can replace the entire plane for a fraction of the cost of the turbine that powers it.

There are many highly qualified builders out there that will undoubtedly make sure their airframes are secure before taking a chance on harming someone or something, but there are just as many people who are budget builders 'driven' to buy this 'model' as an entry into this section of the hobby. I for one, would feel uncomfortable flying such a blatant ripoff of another's hard work and design. Many of these tried and true airframes are built on the backs of much hard-learned experience. Those improvements that lie beneath the skin will not easily be transferred to another model - forcing other pilots to make the same mistakes without knowing that these roads have already been paved by the more expensive model. My 2 cents.


I have one of these 'Bobcats' and having repaired & recovered the thing after the previous owner crash landed it the structure (apart from the fibreglass fuselage) is all good quality, conventional balsa/ply construction. It gives me more confidence than some of the composite structures I've seen. Of the 130 plus pages of the 'massive following' perhaps 4 models have been converted to turbine power.

No lack of respect for the cheap airframe from me, I'm relying on it to keep my expensive turbine safe. Flown sensibly I can see no problems at all with a turbine suited to the size of the model, in this case an 8 pound Wren..

I'm sure some people think the house of purple invented the twin boom jet & think everyone else should be paying Bob royalties.


What REALLY worries me is the combination of suspect asian composite airframes fitted with far larger engines than recommended by the manufacturer by people who really have no idea of the consequences. John.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


< Message edited by Boomerang1 -- 8/22/2008 10:02 AM >

_____________________________

Distributor for: Nothing! So my posts can be unbiased.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 338

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 1:20 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrayUK

Thats what it looks like in your post...


Show me where, and I'll do my best to reword / explain it as appropriate.

Gordon


_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 339

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 2:20 PM   
HarryC


 

Posts: 1988
Score: 100
Joined: 2/10/2002
Last Login: 11/7/2009
From: private, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		I read it as Gordon agreeing with those who want quality but being realistic about human behaviour and recognising that in an unregulated market a great many will only see the attractiveness of a cheap price and either not bother about quality or simply not understand the need for quality when dealing with something weighing perhaps 30lbs travelling at 150mph. I did not read Gordon defending poor quality.
Harry

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 340

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 3:06 PM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 2265
Score: 100
Joined: 2/5/2002
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Perhaps we need to redefine poor quality vis a vis unacceptable quality such as was the case on the Euro wing.

I certainly agree with Paul that quality sells, doesn't have to be TOP quality, just acceptable, and if ithere were to be a slight price increase meaning that some guys can no longer afford them thats just tough, thats life, we can't all have everything we want. That said I can't see why there would need to be ANY price increase for correcting the sort of problems seen in this Euro wing.

What I see in Gordon's post is that we have to accept the status quo and little can be done about it. I dread to think of the consequnces if this carries on, sooner or later it will all go pear shaped.

I wonder too about the legal status of the various reps and sales agents of these Asian ARTFs. I doubt if many, any, have determined exactly how liable they would be if they had sold a customer a model which, due to a manufacturing defect, causes a serious accident. No doubt that would vary from country to country but IF I were rep/ or agent I would be seriously concerned.

Still, no one has yet suggested any answer to the problem with which we are presented................ and the uncharacteristic silence from the C-arfs "reps" is deafening !

Regards, David Gladwin.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to HarryC)
       Post #: 341

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 4:10 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin
I certainly agree with Paul that quality sells, doesn't have to be TOP quality, just acceptable, and if there were to be a slight price increase meaning that some guys can no longer afford them thats just tough, thats life, we can't all have everything we want. That said I can't see why there would need to be ANY price increase for correcting the sort of problems seen in this Euro wing.


For RETRO-actively dealing with issues like this one specific case, I certainly agree that C-ARF ought to be able to fix that without increasing the price.

However, for PRO-actively instigating a program to improve the overall quality of all aspects of the models from the cheap end of the model market, I highly suspect that there would be price implications.

I have a number of friends who own manufacturing companies that outsource various jobs to China, and according to them it is far from cheap to get Chinese factories to adopt decent quality procedures / mechanisms. I fail to see why ARF Jets would be any different, but I am willing to be convinced by logical argument


quote:


What I see in Gordon's post is that we have to accept the status quo and little can be done about it.


I wouldn't say that little CAN be done about it – more that I think little WILL be done about it unless we collectively become more willing to pay increased prices for increased quality.

As far as I can see, it is within our collective power to change the average quality of our models by not going too far with the "I'll accept poorer quality in exchange for lower prices" approach, but how many amongst us are actually going to do that ? I guess I have a little less faith than you guys that we are all focused on protecting the hobby by paying for quality goods. Not sure if that makes me a realist or a cynic …

What can those of us who believe in the non-trivial value of a decent level of quality do to dissuade others from being swayed by the almighty dollar ? Any ideas ?

Gordon

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- 8/22/2008 4:18 PM >

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 342

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 4:11 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 7643
Score: 100
Joined: 1/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: , CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryC
I read it as Gordon agreeing with those who want quality but being realistic about human behaviour and recognising that in an unregulated market a great many will only see the attractiveness of a cheap price and either not bother about quality or simply not understand the need for quality when dealing with something weighing perhaps 30lbs travelling at 150mph. I did not read Gordon defending poor quality.
Harry


Bingo ! Give the man a coconut !

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

Hide Signatures

(in reply to HarryC)
       Post #: 343

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/22/2008 7:54 PM   
Chris Smith



Posts: 498
Score: 100
Joined: 5/23/2004
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Berea KY, Clarksville/Adams, TN, USA
Status: offline

Regarding these cases where jet models have come apart in flight resulting in a crash...

Post crash-

The first thing I would do after determining it was structural failure, is get the word out which has been done. This should happen regardless of whether the failure was caused by manufacturing defect or owner's building or damage from use.

Second thing, is to look at the point of failure then the point of impact or crash site, and consider if the location was tolerable or acceptable from a safety point of view. If not, (the pits, parking lots, or spectator areas would not be) then try to determine if a flight pattern, altitude rule or safety zone needs to be changed or adjusted. There is probably a lot more we could do to improve on this at most jet meets. Mandatory zero lines are a start but not enough.

Third, all owners of the incident model design should assume it directly affects their own airplanes. I 've said previously that I feel we tend toward the "it won't happen to me" thinking a bit too much. Manufacturers should feel obligated to help determine this ASAP. But we should also give them time.

If the manufacturer determines an engineering or procedural fix is needed, or preventative measures could be taken to avoid a similar incident, reputable companies will get the info out and provide the necessary parts and procedures. However, we should avoid setting a "compensation should be required" or "replace my jet" precedent. Buyer beware is not a bad thing as long as we have info. I believe the market does have some self cleaning to it.

The second and third post accident steps mentioned above could be considered pro-active safety measures as they help prevent future safety failures.

Thanks for listening,
Chris

_____________________________

Fly Army

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 344

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 8:45 PM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 2265
Score: 100
Joined: 2/5/2002
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Chris, I agree with all you say EXCEPT the compensation issue. If it can be shown that failure was caused by inadequate construction at the factory then full compensation should be paid. That alone may well concentrate the minds of the producers AND their reps. who may well have legal liabilty, including that suffered by any third party, if they have been involved in the sale.

The crash at Cottesmore showed that sensible flight patterns can minimise the risk and I have long been a vocal advocate of all flying, except T/O and landing, being on the far side of the runway and absolutely never closer than the centre line of a standard runway, assuming pilots are at the edge of the runway.

Discussing this issue at the Nats. yesterday, it is clear that some of us most certainly share John's concern about bigger and bigger engines being installed in easy to "assemble" ARTFs and being flown by modellers of relatively little skill and experience. Such misuse is a very big threat to the hobby. We dismiss the threat at our peril.

Perhaps of equal or even more concern is the rather dismissive attitude to safety in model jet flying as shown by the small response to this thread, such a contrast to all other branches of aviation, both sporting and professional, and the total lack of reponse from anyone connected with C-ARF, manufacturers of the airframe concerned. Speaks volumes.

Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Chris Smith)
       Post #: 345

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 9:24 PM   
GrayUK



Posts: 3111
Score: 102
Joined: 10/7/2003
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Best wishes to Dan and is family....Martin Baker does it again!

_____________________________

Man made global warming.....Ha! Give me a break!

Hide Signatures

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 346

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 10:12 PM   
Geoff White



Posts: 446
Score: 100
Joined: 5/14/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Oxford, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Can't believe I was chatting to Dan just last month. It was great talking to him about the experiences being in the back seat of the Hawk but I guess the risk was always there.
As you say Paul, thank you Martin Baker. I am sure his wife and three daughters are thankfull as well.

Geoff.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 347

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 10:29 PM   
erbroens



Posts: 2342
Score: 100
Joined: 11/20/2003
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Status: offline 		Gentleman, a small issue wich I suppose the RCU staff could fix : This thread was originally named as "2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash", later renamed to "Safety matters".

The problem is that anyone who goes to RCU´s main page sees the original title when somebody updates this thread and associates it to R/C jets. Some people may be under the impression that we must be serial killers, with dozens of kills every weekend or so, Instead of reminding the giant gasser slow flying bipe wich caused the accident, as well the heli pilot cited on it too.

I am not asking to this thread to be removed from here,but the title fixed, as we don´t need bad publicity, as I am sure nobody here deserve it.

Thanks, Enrique

_____________________________

“If the facts don''t fit the theory, change the facts!”

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Geoff White)
       Post #: 348

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 10:40 PM   
CJ2002



Posts: 744
Score: 100
Joined: 12/21/2001
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Wilts, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.


Best wishes Dan...hope you're back on the ball soonest mate.

Rgds,

Dick




Hide Signatures

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 349

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 8/25/2008 11:10 PM   
Chris Smith



Posts: 498
Score: 100
Joined: 5/23/2004
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Berea KY, Clarksville/Adams, TN, USA
Status: offline 		Cheers to Dan. Nothing beats training and procedures. He obviously kept a head about him all the way.

The compensation issue is a difficult one. I'm all for what will work if safety is enhanced. The litigation required to resolve a suit could make things ugly unless the company volunteered. Would manufacturers step up? And if not could they be made to? How do we manage the oppurtnist once the precedent is set? I do see how it could work in the case of an isolated defect from a reputable company. On the other hand, the makers of the low quality marginally engineered products, may find it cheaper to offer the replacement rather than change how they do business.

As the numbers of people flying jet models; including high performance EDF increases, the fairly low injury or near injury accident rate may also increase. How much of the increase will be due to failures in the product? My guess is, it will depend on what the jet market is willing to put up with. If there are enough buyers in the market that are willing to take a chance on poor quality products to cut costs, we could see an increase.

Your concerns with apathy, larger numbers of cheaper ARFs, and more pilots that may not know what the airframe limits or structures can handle, may be the combination that will eventually make the sport unpleasant. We risk elitism if we don't welcome participants and new companies, but is there a point where a stabilized number of quality pilots, and quality products should win over larger numbers and volumes of brands? I don't have the answer. I'll bet some industry leaders have an opinion though.

Wasn't there a discussion just like this when the park flyer market exploded?

Chris





_____________________________

Fly Army

Hide Signatures

(in reply to GrayUK)
       Post #: 350

Page:   <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>  
All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Jets >> RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Page: <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>  




Jump to:


 
Google 



Search | Marketplace | Event Calendar | Local Clubs | Magazine | Product Ratings | New Products | Discussion Forums

Photo Gallery | Instructor Search | Field|Track|Marina Search

Advertisers | Hobby Vendor Resources | Rate Manufacturers | Sign In/Sign Up

SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.

Charities we support that also need your help
Yorkie Rescue | Humane Society | ASPCA | Crohn's-Colitis America

Kaango.com Classifieds

2.594RCU1