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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/14/2006 8:23 PM   
Nighthawk117


 

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From: HADLEY, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I cant seem to view the video, can someone put up a link in WMV?

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/14/2006 8:25 PM   
RAMFlyer



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Status: offline 		Although unfortunate this thread has nothing to do with the Jet Forum. The moderator should move it to the appropriate area.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/14/2006 8:56 PM   
ghost_rider



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quote:

ORIGINAL: RAMFlyer

Although unfortunate this thread has nothing to do with the Jet Forum. The moderator should move it to the appropriate area.




The thread remains here. If you do not want to read it, just SKIP IT.

BTW, I just deleted a post that in this thread that was not appropriate. If you do not have anything to contribute, please just STAY OFF

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/14/2006 9:41 PM   
cyprusjets



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Status: offline 		i have just seen the video, i am surprised . I thought the regulations says that for safety reasons we are not supposed to fly behind the flight line !!!!

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 12:07 AM   
iiievolution



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Status: offline 		Terrible tragedy. Let this remind us of how important safety is in our hobby especially us that operate jets.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 12:19 AM   
causeitflies



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyprusjets

i have just seen the video, i am surprised . I thought the regulations says that for safety reasons we are not supposed to fly behind the flight line !!!!

He wasn't flying behind the flightline until he lost control.

This brings back a memory of when I took a teenager in our club to a giant scale flyin (not as big as the planes in the video) and a pilot had either a PCM lockout or complete power loss. Even though the plane was flying in a smooth arc, I immediately knew the pilot didn't have it. I told the kid to watch out as it slowly arced toward us, even though it was still well out over the flying area. Sure enough it just kept coming and just as I shouted "LOOK OUT! RUN!", the pilot shouted "I AIN'T GOT IT".

Now from playing sports, catching long fly balls and returning kickoffs , I'm a pretty good judge of trajectories. I ran away from the impending crash but the kid didn't know where to go. In a split second I half pushed him to run but the plane hit within a foot of him showering him with parts as he hit the asphalt.

At another flyin while talking to some guys a plane crashed within 30 feet of us without warning. We never would have known what hit us.
My point is that we always have to be aware of what's going on in the air and we have to be extra vigilant where there are spectators because they don't always know what's going on. We can sense an emergency while the spectators may not have a clue.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 12:46 AM   
Spartan Missile


 

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Status: offline 		What a terrible tradgedy. My thoughts are with the bereaved and injured.
The pilot must be going through a hard time, can you imagine if it was YOU ?

How to promote a hobby and keep it safe ?
I notice many UK Jet events specify "No Spectators"


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:42 AM   
Bob101


 

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Status: offline 		Well...it "appears" to be a giant scale plane - either way it was either gasoline/ or glow powered and not of small size. But in the newscast they show the actual video of the crash and then the only other plane they show is what appears to be around a 2m sailplane with an electric motor on the nose and appear to talk to pilot of same plane.

I can't understand the language but that sounds about right, a giant scale gasoline powered airplane has a worst case scenario crash so they show something like a sailplane and people think they'll get hit by the nearest park flyer.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:54 AM   
tailskid



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Status: offline 		Sad news indeed....the plane appears to have 'locked up'....maybe a PCM Receiver? The pilot appear very qualified from what I saw in the video.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:07 AM   
David Gladwin



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Status: offline 		Not only does this issue NEED to be on the jet forum it should be on EVERY forum to remind everyone of the terrible consequences which can happen in our pursuit of this hobby, whatever type of power unit. Having been in top quality professional aviation all my life and deeply involved in air safety promotion for some of those years I have seen some dreadful approaches to safe operation of model aircraft by SOME operators and in some of my writing for RCJI and on RCU I have tried to highlight some of the deficiencies and bad practices in our operations and pass on some fullsize safety "culture". I have been lambasted by some, generally those who have no safety culture or "awareness", applauded by others, generally those who have some fullsize aircraft background, I even had one individual who, on RCU, suggested I took pleasure from pointing out that we have had had two fatalities in the UK, two fatalities too many. I have also seen some,/much first class operation of model jet aircraft where discipline and safety awarness is usually much better than seen in some disciplines.

It has long been my concern that sooner or later there WILL be a jet fatality, which with hindsight may well be shown to have been avoidable, if we continue as we are so lets use this dreadful accident in Hungary to take a long hard look at what we do and how we do it, NOW.

Here are some suggestions for starters in addition to the rules which already exist.

1. At all public events ALL models shall be scrutinized AND the failsafe operation DEMONSTRATED to the scruitineers.
This IS done at Classic jets in the UK, a very well run event.


2. ALL flying except for take off and landing (which can use the runway cenerline for reference.) SHALL be on the FAR side of the runway. There to be NO exceptions and that INCLUDES demo/show pilots, regardless of their origin/company/contest success. Minimum height 25 feet.
This is just a little more than the legal requirement (30metre rule) in Australia.


3. A safety "overseer" will monitor ALL flying and any pilot breaking the rules for any reason will be told to land. A second transgression puts the pilot out of the event.
This is similar to the "flying committee" system used at events like Farnborough and the RIAT.

4. All synthesised transmitters to be confirmed, by use of a monitor that they ARE radiating on the frequency selected and declared and NO frequency changeing to be done without the express approval and in the presence of the transmitter controller.

Safety issues in fullsize aviation are discussed continuously, and very aviation magazine includes a safety section , it is an attitude of mind and an integral part of aviation which needs to be greatly improved in model jet aviation, discussion on RCU can go a long way to achieving an improvement. In my view saying that this accident should not be discussed on the jet forum is symptomatic of our problem.

Many modellers would do well to follow suit and take very reasonable step to minimise the chance of an accident BEFORE it happens to the jet community. As well as the primary aim of avoiding the individual result of a trgedy it will benefit all jet modellers and those involved in the trade by ensuring that we are able to continue our operations with relative freedom from outside legislative interference.

Of course we could sit back and do nothing, content in our complacency, arguably the no1 problem in aviation safety.

Please discuss.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:16 AM   
ghost_rider



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Status: offline 		Very well written Mr. Gladwin.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:31 AM   
TommyWatson



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Status: offline 		Well said David, I totally agree with all your points, Now all we need to do is to get everyone thinking this way.
This very sad news should be sent to every club secretary to be shown to every member.

Regards





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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:59 AM   
mikedenilin


 

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Status: offline 		Could it be possible that we can set up an "Early Warning" system, like a loudspeaker or siren, to alert the spectators to look out and run when the pilot's in trouble? The pilot or his spotter can activate the siren or loudspeaker if they determine that the plane is uncontrollable..

From the video, you can see that some spectators are talking to each others and would not be too alert to avoid the accident.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 5:37 AM   
Bob101


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikedenilin

Could it be possible that we can set up an "Early Warning" system, like a loudspeaker or siren, to alert the spectators to look out and run when the pilot's in trouble? The pilot or his spotter can activate the siren or loudspeaker if they determine that the plane is uncontrollable..

From the video, you can see that some spectators are talking to each others and would not be too alert to avoid the accident.


They have a warning system at Joe Nall set up with a button for the spotter to hit if the pilot looses it etc...

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 6:09 AM   
mugenkidd



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Status: offline 		Quite a tragedy, and one I hate to see happen. My thoughts are with all of those that were involved at all in this accident. However I think the last thing the "jet" community (here in the US) needs is more regulation. In saying that I hope that the AMA seriously takes a look at the dangers of 40% + aerobatic planes that any yaahoo can purchase and fly without the need of a waiver. Not that a waiver would have made a difference in this circumstance as the pilot looked to be very skilled. Also we much be sure that we don't rush to make rules based on emotions of the tragedy that might not make the most logical since. Similar to the mood of the country right after 9-11 on what needed/could/should be done in the name of national security and the same national opinions now.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 6:33 AM   
Jascat100



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Status: online 		When I lived in Scotland, the annual airshow at Fife airfield had marshals with hand held air sirens. Like the ones spectators have at sporting events.
If a plane were to go out of control, the sirens alerted everyone to be aware of the situation.

Regards

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 7:04 AM   
swissflyer



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Status: offline 		well david...what you written down is a great example of improvement every organiser should make..
i will pass your post to my RC club boss...so we can try to make safe our shows...

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 9:23 AM   
Gazzer



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Status: offline 		Hear hear David,

Right, so lets persuade RCJI, Jetpower et al to run a frequent "safety" column, analyzing risks and offering solutions. From display to average Joe Sunday flying, there will be lessons and education for us all and hopefully some of it will get embodied.

Safety is not about oodles of documentation, legislation, its about attitude, professionalism and due respect, to others and ourselves, likely it will enhance the pleasure of this hobby.

I've flown full size gliders and had some light plane exposure too, and one thing my instructor, who happened to be US Air Force fast jet said, has remained with me for may things.

"Don't go flying, go thinking about it first".

I have a one inch scar on my right forearm, half inch on my left thumb. ONe caused by a scalpel, one by a prop. Both were avoidable if I had thought about what I was doing first.

And let's face it, if you went somewhere to enjoy a hobby and you felt it was dangerous, would you get the same enjoyment?

This is a complete tragedy and information from it will be available, stuff we can all learn from.

Let's get the ideas in, the warning siren, ace idea, lets discuss safety and get the magazines to pick the mantle up and help us all.

As the BMFA say, "Safe Flying is No Accident", lets have that as the goal regardless of power source.

Gazzer

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 10:00 AM   
mikedenilin


 

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Status: offline 		I never like these 40% 3D planes. They are like flying lawnowners without a safety cover. The spinning prop blades are most lethal. I think that these 2 viticms were killed instantly by the spinning props.

I strongly believe that jets are safer than these large scale planes. Jet pilots are more aware of safety operations due to the waiver requirements. I really think that AMA should mandate a waiver program for the 33% upper planes or for large engine placement. I have seen some club flyers with wallets bigger than their brains flying these giants recklessly. They should be certified for safety reasons.

Any thoughts on this?

Mike

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:26 PM   
F106A



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Status: offline 		Here's a shot of the wreckage.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:31 PM   
wojtek


 

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Status: offline 		its not the 40% planes, and jets that pose most of the dangers as far as i have seen, it the out of control fogies with their 40 and 60 sized planes, or whatever they are out of control with .. saw a 40 sized p40 almost take a guys head off at FBF in Brooklyn 2 weeks ago .. in and out of the pits several times, and last moment before it went in they guy rolled to the floor and barely avoided being hit by his own plane in the head .. he would have been a sure goner. Also, i don't think newbie should be allowed to fly advanced models at spectator events. I have seen newcomer pilot come within feet of spectators on the ground at an RC event. 2 - 2 more feet and a whole family including a baby would have been nailed , and this one was strictly due to horrible piloting ( the guy had a lot of chance to dump the plane, and not try and save it OVER THE SPECTATORS )


Wojtek


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:33 PM   
SJN



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http://www.hirado.hu/cikk.php?id=116485

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 2:48 PM   
bevar



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Status: offline 		Speaking of flying lawn mowers, can someone retell the story about the kid at Shea stadium getting killed by a S.O.B (Sons of Brooklyn) out of control flying lawn mower during an R/C demo years ago? I had heard the old guy flying it lost control of it and it flew into the stands killng a child, who then died from the injuries.

Every one of out toys are dangerous, be it an 80 MPH 10th scale car, Helli, nitro plane, gasser or jet. Accidents just happen, so we all have to be careful each and every time we go up.

B

< Message edited by bevar -- 5/15/2006 3:27 PM >

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:13 PM   
Theyardarm


 

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Status: offline 		The look of sheer horror and abject terror on the pilots face after the incident will be the best safety reminder to me I have ever seen. I hope he finds a straegy to cope with that for the rest of his life. Just awful for all concerned.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 3:15 PM   
jetace11


 

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Status: offline 		I completly disagree with the comment that jets are safer.
A jet is like a 200mph throwing knife. At any kind of jet speed , a lot more people could get hurt than 2.
We practice safer safety procedures but a jet deffinatly would do as much if not more damage if something happened.
It's also a good thing our jets have failsafes to shut down the engines.
I had a conversation with my moms boyfriend Mark who just happened to be a CF-18 Tech and was telling me about a crash that happened in cold lake where one of the 404s came out the airframe as it hit and proceded to rocket it self eight ,yes (EIGHT) miles away from the impact site. So its a good thing someone thought of that failsafe device or we all might be ducking 150mph coffee cans that shoot fire.

I also was thinking that it might be a good idea to have head sets between the pilots/spotters and have the system pluged into the anouncers speekers so if a mishab starts to occur the spotter clicks to the open channel to the loud speekers so have the whole country can actually hear the word DEADSTICK or TROUBLE.

My heart goes out to the victims and their family.
I also feel for the pilot as I could not imagine the feelings/ thoughts and pictuers running through his head right now.

Fly SMART Fly SAFE
Mike

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