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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 9:57 PM   
ravill



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Status: offline 		After reading this, I have been moved to add another layer of safety to my blossoming turbine career. Just as I have a spare pair of hearing guards, I will go straight to wal-mart and buy an air powered blow horn to hand to my spotter along with the hearing protection......

After being dumbfounded at watching my turbine fall into the ground (engine was shut off when model was deemed uncontrollable) I was soooooo relieved that no one got hurt. I learned many lessons that day and today I have learned a few more. I will set all my prop airplanes to engine off with failsafe.

Just for thought, what if, we could make a speed and altitude limited parachute deployment upon failsafe? A speed sensor can be bought from jetcat. A gps that senses altitude is also available. Yes, these are expensive (cheaper technology is out there, just look at some of those awsome casio watches...) but, I would pay $400 to save anyones life! Even those people on RCU that just love to start fights!!!

With some luck, the parachute would slow the model down giving it a more predictable trajectory and if just tore the airplane in pieces, then maybe the resulting increase in cross section, would slow the pieces down.....But again, if this were to happen among a group of spectators, then this would transform one falling piece into many falling pieces, albiet smaller pieces with less mass!!

I wish I had the capitol, ingenuity and the time to design something like this. From what I've been able to gather, when these turbines go into failsafe, there is not much we can do to save them anyways.....

I suppose a solution would be to set failsafe to snap with a parachute deployment....The snap would slow the airplane down and the parachute would give it a predictable trajectory....

Hey, I think I'm on to something!!!

sorry, I'm just rambling...

But, truthfully, every flying day should be a day in which we can scrutinize, atleast, our own behavior into a safer one. Safe and happy flying to all.

Raf

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 10:03 PM   
Gordon Mc



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quote:

ORIGINAL: paf
A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there


On what basis do you make such a claim ?

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 11:27 PM   
paf


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf
A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there


On what basis do you make such a claim ?


To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.

To me, the main reason for PCM failsafe is to prevent energy buildup when uncontrolable model flying at high altitude gets into a nose down attitude with WOT. It's not a cure-all.

P.

P.S.
Did anybody notice the ING commercial shown just prior to the accident report with kids peacufully flying model gliders ???

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 11:29 PM   
Woketman



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Status: offline 		ING commercial? What video link were you looking at? Please post.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 11:34 PM   
paf


 

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ORIGINAL: Woketman

ING commercial? What video link were you looking at? Please post.


It was posted on the first page of the thread:

mms://stream.publishing.hu:1755/tv2/video/tenyek/tenyek_0513_low.wmv

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 11:40 PM   
Gordon Mc



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quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.


5 seconds is more than enough time to stop a prop by having failsafe set to engine kill

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/15/2006 11:57 PM   
EddieWeeks



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Status: offline 		I switched back to PPM 10 years ago and I am much happier with it... I did crash a jet
with the PPM in Deland but I had some control all the way to the ground.

I get a lot more bumps and hits than everyone else but I see them all and when I get
two in a flight I land... no big deal...

I can't say if PPM (FM) would have helped in this case, but if it was like my crash he would
have %50 control at first.... Then %20... more than enough time to chop the power and
have the engine power back.. Way better than lock out at full power...

Eddie Weeks

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 12:02 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EddieWeeks

I switched back to PPM 10 years ago and I am much happier with it... I did crash a jet
with the PPM in Deland but I had some control all the way to the ground.

I get a lot more bumps and hits than everyone else but I see them all and when I get
two in a flight I land... no big deal...

I can't say if PPM (FM) would have helped in this case, but if it was like my crash he would
have %50 control at first.... Then %20... more than enough time to chop the power and
have the engine power back.. Way better than lock out at full power...

Eddie Weeks


I thought I was the last person on the planet to not belive in PCM. I fly PPM, and don't plan to change. I will gladly change to spread spectrum pretty soon, when that gets refined. But if I did fly PCM, the failsafe would be set to kill the engine! Anything else is nuts.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 12:17 AM   
EddieWeeks



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Status: offline 		The funny thing is, when I range check my plane, with the engine running (PPM) I walk
until things start to chatter, and the engine quits right away sometimes... as the receiver gets
bad frames, it only takes one frame where the engine run channel goes to the stop engine... and
the engine quits... Also.. If I turn the transmitter off... The turbines quits right away.. A sec or less...
If the AMT ECU quits getting frames it shuts down really fast... The IPD system with multiplex is very
similar. Something to think about... I don't think if anyone will change back to PPM because it requires
less expensive radio gear...
Eddie Weeks

< Message edited by EddieWeeks -- 5/16/2006 12:23 AM >

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 12:20 AM   
wojtek


 

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quote:

I doute if anyone will chage back to PPM because it requires
less expensive radio gear...


lol ...

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 12:26 AM   
paf


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.


5 seconds is more than enough time to stop a prop by having failsafe set to engine kill


From my experience (failed throttle servo, killing the engine using electronic kill switch in order to land), it takes around 15 seconds for a 32x10 CF prop to actually come to a stop during level flight.

20kg model at 80 mph (33 m/s) has 10890 J kinetic energy. Your average, relatively high-drag, giant scale model will slow down to approx. 55mph (23m/s) in 5 seconds, dropping the energy down to 5290 J.

A 32" prop has has moment of intertia approx. 0.025 kg/m^2, so spinning it at 5000 RPM gives you 3152 J kinetic energy.

A 9mm bullet right at the nozzle has approx. 500 J kinetic energy.

Either scenario is a losing proposition.

Although not intuitive, you're better off falling into a stationary 32" prop at 5000 RPMs rather than getting hit by 20kg glider at 55mph. Your worst nighmare (like the accident in question) is a spinning prop on a nose of a heavy airplane

P.


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 1:58 AM   
causeitflies



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Status: offline 		15 seconds!? That's a loong time. My 26" prop stops in about 5 seconds.
Sounds like you need a set of rings

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 2:12 AM   
ghost_rider



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Status: offline 		It is said that “Charity beings at home” and such how many of you that have attended a jet event this year
had your AMA engine kill checked by the club or event organizer?

We should make it a must at every major / non-major jet event with no exceptions.


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 2:24 AM   
Gordon Mc



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quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.


5 seconds is more than enough time to stop a prop by having failsafe set to engine kill


From my experience (failed throttle servo, killing the engine using electronic kill switch in order to land), it takes around 15 seconds for a 32x10 CF prop to actually come to a stop during level flight.


Sounds like something's wrong with your engine.

I'll tell you what.... if I give you the choice of sticking your arm into a 34 inch prop running at full bore, and doing the same for a prop that's windmilling lightly 5 seconds after being shut down on an engine that apparently has little or no compression - which would you choose ?

Given that you assert point blank that PCM set for engine kill could not have made any difference to the outcome of this event, either you have documented proof that the fatalities were not in any way attributable to the prop, or you believe that being struck by such a prop at full power can't kill you -- which is it ?

Gordon






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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:08 AM   
paf


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.


5 seconds is more than enough time to stop a prop by having failsafe set to engine kill


From my experience (failed throttle servo, killing the engine using electronic kill switch in order to land), it takes around 15 seconds for a 32x10 CF prop to actually come to a stop during level flight.


Sounds like something's wrong with your engine.

I'll tell you what.... if I give you the choice of sticking your arm into a 34 inch prop running at full bore, and doing the same for a prop that's windmilling lightly 5 seconds after being shut down on an engine that apparently has little or no compression - which would you choose ?

Given that you assert point blank that PCM set for engine kill could not have made any difference to the outcome of this event, either you have documented proof that the fatalities were not in any way attributable to the prop, or you believe that being struck by such a prop at full power can't kill you -- which is it ?

Gordon








What I'm saying is that, both the plane with windmilling prop and the fast spinning prop on its own, have enough energy to kill you several times over. Just shutting the engine does not make the plane safe - just a bit safer. From the video, I'm not able to tell if the engine was set with PCM idle failsafe or not, but even with the engine shut, there wasn't enough time for the plane to slow down to a non-deadly airspeed. I doubt that both victims got a direct prop hit, suggesting to me it was purely the total mass/velocity of the thing that did major part of the damage.

The major advantage of killing/idling the engine with failsafe is that hopefully, in most scenarios, the plane will impact at lower speed than with an engine running. However the plane has enough energy to be deadly several times over even with the engine dead.

Another wakeup call for me is what seems to be a generally accepted "safe flying practices" by the pilot - flying parallel to the runway behind a seemingly reasonable deadline, yet it's no help and doesn't give anybody time to react. I doubt sounding a horn would have helped much here either.

A really tall fence separating the spectators from the flying activity is about the only preventive measure I can see helping here.

I don't have the answers, but increasing the overall reliabality of the control system we all use sure sounds like a good start.

P.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:29 AM   
Silver182



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ORIGINAL: piethein

Hello All,

Some time ago, I read about a suggestion for Failsafe, I think it was from Large Models Association or similar. This suggestion had all control surfaces to go to full deflection and to either idle or kill the engine. THis would kill the speed from the model. Also this would lead to a loss of model in many cases, but I would rather loose my plane than someone to loose his life in this case.

I would like to know if some other suggestions have been around for a good failsafe to kill the speed from the model.

BR,
Jussi


Jussi,
AMA Experimental Class aircraft for many many years...until just recently were required to have a full fail-safe system which would kill the engine and deflect all flight surfaces to the max... to effect a snap roll engine out... so the aircraft would not be able to wander into a crowd. Rather it would basically stop flying and screw itself in ASAP!

As I have said before I believe this should be a requirement for all model aircraft weighting over 20 lbs. I have been flying my turbine powered Jets with this fail-safe setup for several years.

While a member of the Denver Airshow Team throughout the 90's and flying at many full scale airshows we always had fail-safes set for full snap-roll deflection... as I recall we had one or two radio failures over a ten year period of time and in each case the airplane just screwed itself in out in a safe flight zone.

If you've ever been at the controls of an model airplane that has locked up, with only the factory default HOLD fail-safe settings, you'll understand why this should be a requirement.

In court when the prosecutor asks you... did you do all you could to avoid an accident? What would your answer be?
Lee H. DeMary
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:45 AM   
David2004


 

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Status: offline 		OK, here is the deal. It was a Composite-ARF Pitts S-10, with a 3W engine. The pilot is a highly qualified German pilot, of the caliber of the pilot who put the 117 in a few weeks ago in California. I have his name and have seen videos of him flying at different shows. He is a superb pilot but posting his name here would serve no purpose. It appears that a local pop radio station was broadcasting on the same frequency that he was flying on that lead to the interference and crash.

The two deaths were an elderly couple, husband and wife. Both died instantly and it was gruesome.


What a tragedy for everyone.



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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:48 AM   
Mi-25


 

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Status: offline 		I saw the same aircaft type demonstrated at the WJM in Hungary last year (same size/sound/colour). If my memory is correct - it was flown by a German guy - and it was huge! If it's the same guy - I thought he really flies very well - shows what can happen when a problem strikes.
Great tragedy for all.

Leon

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:57 AM   
air mail rcu


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


quote:

ORIGINAL: paf
A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there


On what basis do you make such a claim ?




To me, the model seems to have went out of control approximately 5 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to bleed off enough kinetic energy to make it non-lethal, even with the engine at idle. However that's no excuse for anyone to not have a PCM failsafe go to idle.

To me, the main reason for PCM failsafe is to prevent energy buildup when uncontrolable model flying at high altitude gets into a nose down attitude with WOT. It's not a cure-all.

P.

P.S.
Did anybody notice the ING commercial shown just prior to the accident report with kids peacufully flying model gliders ???


A normal parachute will open in 3 seconds. A ballistic deployed chute will open in one second. More then enough time to have prevented this tragedy. This kind of chute is used on ultralite planes they should be mandatory on large RC planes.


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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 3:57 AM   
Doug Cronkhite


 

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Status: offline 		Sounding a horn would only have people looking in the direction of the horn. It doesn't appear as though the pilot of this airplane did anything willfully reckless or problematic.. except not setting the failsafe to idle/kill on the engine, which would have at the very least reduced the energy of the crash by a great deal.

Sadly, I have flown at many airshows where people are allowed to fly who have much worse problems than this, only they've been lucky whereas this pilot wasn't. One pilot is repeatedly asked to fly at airshows, even though I've seen him routinely behind the safety deadline, and at least twice, was so far behind himself that he was actually over the assembled crowd and over the static display area. I have also heard of someone crashing a turbine so far behind the crowd line that it actually came down next to a hotdog vendor.

Just because you're able to takeoff and land at your local field does NOT mean you're capable or qualified to fly in airshows. We seriously need to do something in this country to get this under control in my opinion, or we're just another accident waiting to happen.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 4:13 AM   
erbroens



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quote:

I don't think if anyone will change back to PPM because it requires
less expensive radio gear...


That´s exactly the problem...this seems to defy logic. I am flying now my turbine weekend beater on PPM by a personal preference and not because it is less expensive. The main reason that I am doing this is because the PPM plane warns you that something wrong is building up inside the plane, or in the frequency itself ... and as long the turbine shuts down by the ECU if the data frame is bad enough, It already have the main advantage of the failsafe feature present on PCM receivers.

And as far as i tried it (about 80 flights on PPM, in a very busy club) it seems to work very well.
meanwhile other PCM airplanes (not jets) crashed by undetermined causes... so I am quite in the
dark here, using what seems to work best.


Enrique








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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 4:44 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

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ORIGINAL: David2004

OK, here is the deal. It was a Composite-ARF Pitts S-10, with a 3W engine. The pilot is a highly qualified German pilot, of the caliber of the pilot who put the 117 in a few weeks ago in California. I have his name and have seen videos of him flying at different shows. He is a superb pilot but posting his name here would serve no purpose. It appears that a local pop radio station was broadcasting on the same frequency that he was flying on that lead to the interference and crash.

The two deaths were an elderly couple, husband and wife. Both died instantly and it was gruesome.


What a tragedy for everyone.




The news report said he was an engine and airframe manufacturer...and it says 3W on the tail, you don't see engine manufacturers flying somebody else's brand in demos, and the news told where in Germany he lived, so it's not really a big mystery to most to figure out who he is. Does not really matter, though.
As far as the "local pop station" being the culprit, I seriously, seriously doubt that. It was rather sudden interference(if it WAS interference) I don't know of too many radio stations that suddenly switch on during the middle of the day. While it is possible, it's rather doubtful, I think it would be better to wait for more facts to come in before accepting such a conclusion.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 5:02 AM   
causeitflies



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Status: offline 		I thought he meant that they were doing a live broadcast from the event.

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 6:02 AM   
go vertical


 

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Status: offline 		in feb. i started a thread in the 3d forom about how i felt 3d flying was geting out of hand at some events i got crusifid by the guys who thought i was trying to cut into there fun it became a ego thing but we were having at least a debate about saftey when RCU locked the thread and ended the thread now that this tragic event has happend lets see if they lock this out

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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/16/2006 7:29 AM   
piethein


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Lee,

To me this full deflection failsafe will serve also the second purpose. It will tell the others, that something is wrong, at least in the case of Jets, that we try to fly smooth. If the plane does a sudden "snap", it will tell the fellow modellers the situation, before anyone can hit the horn for alarm. The horn alarm sounds also as a good idea. Will get one for our events.

Also the kill of the engine will ensure, that full throttle will not be returned, if the failsafe goes away, maybe just a sec before hitting the ground.

BR,
Jussi



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