RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash  
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/22/2006 11:35:43 AM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 1943
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I can now reveal the problem as I have informed Wren of the details. There are hundreds of Wren tailpipes in service and mine is the first failure. Same happens from time to time in real aviation even with the very best manufacturers eg Rolls Royce and I hold Wren in similar high regard. The tailpipe failed as only two of the welds (of about 20 ) were holding the tailpipe together the rest of the welds had not fully contacted the inner tailpipe and the welds were right on the extreme end of the tailpipe metal. After all this flying, 106 flights, the two welds had failed in fatigue and there simply was not enough strength left in the other welds to hold things together.

The fix : I suggest tht all operators have four straps welded to their tailpipes to hold the two sections together so that if the welds fail there is another load path.

Thats life in aviation, things from time to time go wrong in every organisation, we simply have to be frank and honest in our reporting and do or damndest to prevent a recuurence.

Treadstone : Yes I HAD inspected the tailpipe on the L39 just as I would have done on my walkround on a RB211 or CF 6. and every engine I have operated before . There was no distortion, wrinkling, uneven discolouration or any other sign of distress all looked normal and I do use a torch and where neccessary and dental mirror (but not a shuftyiscope, dont go that far ! !) I defy anyone to have picked up this problem.

The pipe is being sent to Wren for their examination and action.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

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(in reply to paulputman)
       Post #: 201

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/22/2006 12:18:54 PM   
Gazzer



Posts: 957
Joined: 4/21/2004
From: Southam, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		I watched the awful Discovery programme last night about Japan Airlines 123 which was a 747 in 1985 and killed all but 4 on board. The post crash investigation revealed a repair by Boeing was at fault, only one line of rivets had been used following a scrape on the underside with a nose high pilot, and the rear pressure seal bulkead blew out taking the fin and some stab with it.

And this goes to show that safety no matter who you are, can catch you out. The chief engineer at Japan Airlines killed himself shortly afterwards.

So I would imagine no time wasted by Wren reviewing the current products in manufacture, those who have them fitted can check them by removal and inspection as far as practicable, and perhaps a bulletin about this issued by Wren in due course, and if it is feasible to inspect, how this might be achieved.

But the safety planning observed by David meant an appropriately located and to hand extinguisher saving the majority of the aircraft, that's what we mean about safety. Risk reduction. I've noted on one or two crashes where a fire starts, younger fitter than I men running up the fields and airways with a fire extinguisher, all being taken from the pits.

At the big shows, have the professionals to hand, after all we have first aiders in attendance, and at club level, working agreement on where to place extinguishers so if something goes wrong, you can leg it to the extinguisher nearest and therefore faster intervention.

I hope to speak to some colleagues in the fire service at a nearby airport and see if I can get some guidance and advice on firefighting for our models and then share this. As I can't drive (or sand currently!!!) this may take some time. If it happens it should be worthwhile though.

And with the quick and honest sharing of the information, everyone is able to make a positive decision about what best to do BEFORE it gets the chance to re-occur, diminshing further the already low likelihood of failure.

Gazzer

_____________________________

Good judgement comes from bad experience.... Must be a good judge!

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 202

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/22/2006 12:40:30 PM   
Robrow



Posts: 757
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Southport, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Yes, unfortunately despite our best efforts, from time to time these things do happen. I remember years ago doing a post engine change check run on an Olympus and only finding the jetpipe/exhaust bellows assy. was leaking hot gasses as we performed power checks. Fortunately the with the bay doors open the hot gases just vented to atmosphere but it did serve to remind us why we were doing the check run in the first place.

I suppose other than physically doing a pull check on the spot welds, which would entail removal of the pipe assy, but even then it could still be difficult to pick up,this mode of failure is very difficult to anticipate. There is an awefull lot more to a good spot weld than most people will realise, temp profile during the weld cycle, contact surface area, penetration, duration, etc. To the layman a bad weld can seem no different to a perfectly good one, also the characteristics of a good weld can change with time and the constant heat cycling.

Rob.

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UK distributor: Merlin 90 & 160. Jet Central UK. Turbojet Technologies. www.jets-munt.com

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 203

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/23/2006 4:53:06 AM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 1943
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Gazzer,

If you discuss firefighting with your local brigade the probability is that they will tell you the same as I was told when I had to do my bi annual Safety Equipment Procedures training which included a visit to a fire training school, specialisising in aviation fire safety.
From what I remember they recommend as the best extinguishant BCF but that is now only permitted for aviation use and difficult for us to get hold of, I recently tried to get mine refilled in Australia, no joy. They are still used in the cabins in airliners as they are the most effective, trade name Halon. A similar agent is used in aircraft engine fire bottles and work by depriving the fire of oxygen.

Best for our use is CO2 and that worked for me last Sunday.

Effective but very messy is dry powder, best kept for kitchen use only.

However, a new agent, trade name Fostrex was recently announced by Eclipse Aviation (www. eclipseaviation.com) and will be installed in the Eclipse 500 VLJ and is claimed to be VERY efficient. I hope to get more news of this at Farnborough in July and will report back if I have any joy.

I have somwhere in my possesion a firestick which was proposed some years ago for model jet use. This was a plastic tube filled with Halon and if the temp. rose above a certain value the plastic would melt releasing the Halon. Problem is, of course, we cant get Halon any more !

Co-incidences happen, I was discussing the JAL fin separation just yesterday with Dave Burns, our IJMC rep who is also a Qantas engineer.



Regards,

David Gladwin.

(in reply to Gazzer)
       Post #: 204

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/23/2006 11:06:19 AM   
BaldEagel



Posts: 4176
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Wychling, Kent, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Gazzer

Halon is now banned in all UK aircraft, due to as you say it depribes the fire of oxygen unfortunatly this exclusion of oxygen also applies to the passengers, hence Halon is now also banned in offices and public areas in the UK.

Mike

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No matter what anyone says 100% is the maximum you can get.

(in reply to David Gladwin)
       Post #: 205

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/23/2006 2:20:53 PM   
Gazzer



Posts: 957
Joined: 4/21/2004
From: Southam, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

Yep was aware of the Halon ban since they were taken off the police vehicles I drive, shame, as they were good!

However, using my "contacts" I am hopeful that the specialists will take a common sense approach and give overview and guidance, not something they would normally do as fires are dangerous and the reason they have full courses is obvious.

That said the lads are pretty pragamatic and nice enough to make me some tea, so who knows, I will try and get something that can be of value.

Those on board extinguishers referred to I think were also designed to break in an impact thus depriving the immediate area with oxygen and reducing fire risks.

Given where we are with electronics and sensors, should not be too long before someone invents a self releasing CO2 cartridge that ignites on impact or temperature too high............... Not for one moment suggesting you should not fly if you don't have on board extinguisher but again something to consider that could reduce risks...........

Which brings me to a little phrase I heard a while back and have just remembered.

Put a guy in a car that has massive fenders/bumpers, is fully airbagged, with seatbelts and massive and big made of thick steel etc, and put another guy next to him on a tiny exposed framework car with a large bottle of nitro and a bottle of glycerine strapped to the front, and a spike comign out of the steering wheel and guess who is likely to have an accident first........

You have to work at safety!!!


Gazzer

_____________________________

Good judgement comes from bad experience.... Must be a good judge!

(in reply to BaldEagel)
       Post #: 206

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/23/2006 5:03:17 PM   
Eddie P



Posts: 678
Joined: 2/4/2003
From: Reno, NV, USA
Status: offline 		Really good discussions.

(in reply to Gazzer)
       Post #: 207

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/24/2006 12:54:31 PM   
air mail rcu


 

Posts: 522
Joined: 8/3/2003
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Halon is banned in the States. Has be for some time. Same reasons.

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Take-offs are optional. Landings are mandatory.

(in reply to Eddie P)
       Post #: 208

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/27/2006 7:34:27 PM   
Daren Savage


 

Posts: 286
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Los Alamos, NM, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER

But the end result was probably the guy just flew the plane anyway, and nobody said anything because they did not want to be unpopular?

You UK guys...how would YOU react to the same situation?


I could've grounded him, but I'm not his mommy. The PIC and his back up pilot both have enough age, experience and education to know better, but know...wink, wink, nudge, nudge, be a pal, be a pal.

If these turbine guys want to risk losing the last local field to fly turbines and would rather drive 3 hours each way to B.W., or deal with the mobs at Sepulveda, who am I to stop them?

Safety is an attitude, not a rule.

Daren

< Message edited by Daren Savage -- 5/27/2006 7:42:54 PM >

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
       Post #: 209

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/29/2006 1:43:57 PM   
BaldEagel



Posts: 4176
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Wychling, Kent, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Hi all

Have not logged on to this forum for a while as I think this one has run its course on this issue, what we need is a dedicated forum to disscuss these issues, but one that sounds sexy enough to encourage others to read it you know those who think they are safe already.

Suggestion for forum title?

With all the expertise being expressed here we should be able to come up with some good suggested safety rules for both club and display use although they should not be far appart, a moderator needs to be appointed, one that will keep the rules in a logical sequence and fromat for disscusion.

What do you all think?

Mike

_____________________________

No matter what anyone says 100% is the maximum you can get.

(in reply to Daren Savage)
       Post #: 210

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/29/2006 3:31:35 PM   
CJ2002



Posts: 618
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Wilts, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BaldEagel


With all the expertise being expressed here we should be able to come up with some good suggested safety rules for both club and display use although they should not be far appart, a moderator needs to be appointed, one that will keep the rules in a logical sequence and fromat for disscusion.

What do you all think?

Mike


Mike,

We have suitable and sufficent rules/guidance to feed from (in the UK anyway - CAP 658, BMFA, JMA & GTBA). We don't need any more rules...what we can do is to review/refine the ones we have and concentrate more effort on their use and improving the safety culture in general - that's the way forward. I like David Gladwin's idea of a 'flying control committee' at jet meets...might trial it at the next Classic Jets if I can persuade the right people to help me out.

Cheers,

Dick
England


PS...the JMA Cttee were given a mandate to talk to the BMFA wrt the idea of putting in place some sort of certificate of competence for jet pilots. I know they've started the dialogue and if it ever comes to fruition as a meaningful and workable programme, it could enhance general 'jet safety'.



(in reply to BaldEagel)
       Post #: 211

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/29/2006 5:23:20 PM   
BaldEagel



Posts: 4176
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Wychling, Kent, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Dick

I agree we do not want anymore rules what we need is a practical set of rules to be used every day by the ordinary folk that fly on club sites, something short sharp and to the point and about flying safety, this is after the club committe or whoever has allocated the car parking area, pits and control thereof, and the area of take off. I was not trying to re-invent the rule book, just bring it into the attention span of the ordinary flyer the ones who are not involved and don't read all the present CAP's or BMFA handbook JMA etc:

Mike

_____________________________

No matter what anyone says 100% is the maximum you can get.

(in reply to CJ2002)
       Post #: 212

RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash - 5/31/2006 3:14:39 AM   
David Gladwin



Posts: 1943
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline