Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (Full Version)

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skateflyer -> Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 6:19:04 AM)

Does anyone know the difference between Methonal and Metholhydrate, (spelling???)is there any?????



CP140 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 6:28:45 AM)

Nope... no difference apart from the name. Methanol=methyl hydrate



DarZeelon -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 6:48:16 AM)

Albert, Martin,


The word 'methanol' (note correct spelling) has a couple (...) of synonyms...
...As you can see here.

It is an alcohol derived from the hydrocarbon 'methane', which is used as a gas for cooking in many countries.

In its chemical notation, methane is CH4 and methanol is CH3OH; a hydrogen atom (H) was replaced by a hydroxide (OH).



skateflyer -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 7:24:28 AM)

OK thanks for the info. That means I should be able to buy inexpensive gallon of methal hydate at the local harware, add 20% oil and end up with something close to FAI fuel.



DarZeelon -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 8:57:26 AM)

Albert,


Just make sure it is at least 99% pure... doesn't contain harmful/acidic impurities.


And 'methal hydate' is not one of the names used to describe methanol.

Make sure the spelling is correct before you buy it, because if it is not methanol (or any of its synonyms), your engine will not run!



pe reivers -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 1:15:41 PM)

The cheap stuff is good for paint applications and degreasing, but is not pure enough for our glow engines.
You will get inferior fuel.



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 1:48:42 PM)

H'mm, the fuel bought at the race track seems to be a LOT cheaper than from the hardware store. About half. I suggest you find a good source of methanol race fuel.



Turk1 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 1:55:44 PM)

Hi,I am using industrial type methanol,directly pouring from 200 liter barrel.Wihout nitro and 20% full castor with OS A3 plug,Im having good power. Fuel costs me about 3$ per litre



Sport_Pilot -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 2:19:22 PM)

Costs about the same as a gallon of gas in the US. About $3.00 per gallon. That is for race fuel. A gallon of wood alcohol is about $6.00.



Turk1 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (5/18/2006 2:34:24 PM)

Hi, dont forget Im talking for Turkish market.Here a commercial brand fuel such as 5% nitro comes about 9,5 $ per litre.If I want to buy one liter nitro,I have to pay about 110$.My methanol costs me a little more than 1 $.



loughbd -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 1:15:39 AM)

I think you guys had better check the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Methanol is wood alcohol, methyl alcohol, or methanol. It is an alcohol.

There is no such chemical as methyl hydrate listed in the handbook and there is a listing for all the thousands of organic chemicals. The suffix hydrate indicates there is a water molecule in the base compound. You see this in many rocks and minerals. Opal is one. It's formula is SiO2-nH2O. It is SiliconDioxide with an n number of water molecules bonded to the SiO2. SiO2 is common quartz.

If you add water to methanol, all you get is contaminated alcohol.

Methanol and methyl hydrate (whatever that is) are two different things.

Definition of a hydrate from the glossary of "Chemistry and Chemical Reactivity, third edition". "An ionic compound in which water molecules are trapped within the crystal lattice." Methanol is not an ionic compound and does not have a crystal lattice. It is not a hydrate.

That was your chemistry lesson for the day.



CP140 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 2:32:43 AM)

True, the CRC does not list "Methyl Hydrate"... neither does the copy of the Merck Index I have. However... both are American publications and may overlook common or more antiquated names from the other side of the Atlantic.

I will refer you to the following link

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_alcohol.html

and have attached the following scan of a bottle I have...




loughbd -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 2:50:48 AM)

Again, the definition of a hydrate is an ion with water as part of the crystal lattice. Alcohol doesn't have a crystal lattice and it isn't an ion. In a hydrate the water molecule latches onto the atom that is missing an electron in the lattice. Alcohol don't do dat. I can write Rolls Royce on a Yugo but that don't make it a Rolls.



CP140 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 4:08:52 AM)

I suspect methyl hydrate is one of the more antiquated names for methanol and/or not commonly used on this side of the world.

However, that does not detract from the fact that methanol and methyl hydrate are synonyms. ( I apologize to all of you IUPAC lovers out there. )

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2001/2001_07_e.html

http://www.centrum-labs.com/mobile/Safety/MSDS/methanol.htm

http://www.mfa.org/_CAMEO/FRONTEND/material_description.asp?name=methyl+alcohol&language=1

http://www.recochem.com/english/products/faqs.html

Also, while your description of hydration is correct, there is (at least) one other definition.

http://www.iupac.org/goldbook/H02876.pdf




loughbd -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 4:34:10 AM)

yeah we used to call it methyl, bethyl, difluminate hydride hydrox cookies



treedog -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 4:39:21 AM)

Methyl Hydrate
Is there a difference between Methyl Hydrate, Methanol, and Wood Alcohol?
Answer: There is no difference between these products; it is just a different name for the same thing.

Is there a difference between Denatured Alcohol and Methanol, or are they the same?
Answer: They are not the same, but in most workshop applications either one can be used. Otherwise, Denatured Alcohol is an ethanol-based product and is considered less toxic than Methanol. Check to see if the manufacturer specifies one in particular and follow the recommendation.

Where can I use Methyl Hydrate?
Answer: Methyl Hydrate, also known as Methanol and Wood Alcohol, is used as a fondue fuel, shellac thinner, gas line antifreeze, and, when mixed with water, as a powerful window cleaner.

End of story



loughbd -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 4:59:50 AM)

denatured alcohol is ethanol with enough methanol added to make it poisonous to drink



CP140 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 6:04:05 AM)

And here I was trying to forget all that organic chem I learned. [:)] I'm going to have nightmares tonight, I just know it.

FWIW, denatured alcohol can be prepared by the addition of relativley small amounts of compounds such as benzene, methanol/methyl hydrate or any of about 90 or so others. You can probably find it in the UK as "methylated spirits"

As stated, the addition of these other compounds makes the ethanol poisonous. It also makes it taste awful, and darned near impossible to distill to anything worth spiking the punch with.

A really good chem lab might be able to clean it up, but would probably spend more money on reagents and grad student wages than they would have spent if they'd just gone out and bought a decent bottle of whisk(e)y. By denaturing the ethanol, it can be sold without all the taxes usually applied to the "good stuff" and be used in manufacturing etc.



loughbd -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/2/2006 9:30:08 PM)

That info came directly from a can of denatured alcohol.



CP140 -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (6/3/2006 2:18:49 AM)

I don't doubt that it did. My previous post wasn't terribly clear. let me try again. The addition of methanol/methyl hydrate to ethanol is only one way to denature it.

There are in fact a number (Approx. 50, according to one reference I have) of cocktails using some of over 90 different denaturants which are allowed to be called denatured alcohol.

Different recipes will be used for different things or different manufacturing processes...



emchen -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (2/3/2007 6:50:05 AM)

I have been using 80% methal hydrate 20% castor for a while in my fuel.It doesnt have as much power or rpms as with nitro fuel
but it has been working not bad for my planes.I cant get glow fuel in merritt so I make my own.



Fuel Dinosaur -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (2/3/2007 4:04:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: skateflyer

Does anyone know the difference between Methonal and Metholhydrate, (spelling???)is there any?????


Hey guys, sorry, but methanal is an ALDEHYDE and NOT methanol. Methanal, if you spelled it right is HCHO, and another name for it is FORMALDEHYDE and you do NOT want to put that in your engine. Formaldehyde is the 10% solution we used to place human brain for tissue sections later on!!! You are looking for methanol, the smallest alcohol, with formula CH3OH When you buy methanol, you should ask for the MSDS sheet on that chemical, and make sure it has the correct formula and lists the purity. These chemicals have many oddball common names, in addition to their IUPAC names. For example if I said something about oil of Mirbane, folks would not know what I am talking about, but if I say nitrobenzene, more folks would understand it and if I said that particular smell of wax shoe polish, most folks would remember that smell, especially earlier on when we ran all kinds of neat stuff in our engines. [;)]

PS: Methyl Hydrate is a synonym for methyl alcohol, which is the same thing as methanol, CH3OH. This is the same alcohol that folks distilled from various hair products and proceeded to go blind. So don't drink it, but your engine sure loves it. I knew it would pay off to take organic, inorganic, advanced organic and inorganic, physical chemistry, instrumental analysis, etc. It was to prepare me to make great model airplane, boat, and car fuels when I got older, but did not grow up.[:)]



Jim Thomerson -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (2/3/2007 6:52:19 PM)

Just to be topical, take a look at this lin on methane hydrates.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/12/methane-hydrates-and-global-warming/



Grits -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (2/4/2007 3:51:43 PM)

Not trying to hijack the thread but what is the difference between ethanol and methanol for fuel use? I know you can drink the ethanol but in terms of btu's how do they compare? Will ethanol work as glow fuel?



Fuel Dinosaur -> RE: Glow fuel, for all the chemists out there (2/4/2007 6:15:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grits

Not trying to hijack the thread but what is the difference between ethanol and methanol for fuel use? I know you can drink the ethanol but in terms of btu's how do they compare? Will ethanol work as glow fuel?


Folks have tried ethanol, isopropanol and you name it for the more volatile, small alcohols and methanol works very well. So initially, it was just tried empirically to see how well it would work. Any of you older speed guys remember the smell of nitrobenzene at competitions? Methanol is more volatile than ethanol. Fuel cell use concentrated on methanol too because methanol was easier to oxidize than ethanol and methane. Other names for our methanol are monohydroxymethane, hydroxymethane, methyl alcohol, carbinol, pyroxylic spirit, wood alcohol and others. Methanol boils about 65 degrees C, about 13 degrees below ethanol. So be sure to use methanol in your fuels and drink the other stuff.[:)]

PS: Bulk production of methanol has been greatly improved over the years and can be made for as little as $.40-$.60 a gallon and a few years ago, you could buy 6,000-8,000 gallons for about 65 cents a gallon. Not true now, but we can make enough methanol for cars and model engines. Ultimately, we now reduce carbon monoxide with hydrogen under pressure and about 250 degrees. That is, methanol can be quite competitive with fossil fuels. Looked up heat contents for methanol and ethanol, methanol is about 62800 btu per gallon and ethanol is about 84400 btu/gallon or about 1.34 x as much for ethanol, compared to methanol. However, ethanol does have properties that make it better for relatively high rpm use in model engines. With the addition of nitromethane for oxygen, better idle and more power and more complete oxidation (in this case combustion) of methanol, the slight btu "handicap" for methanol is, in practice, not a problem. The reason you do not drink methanol, ever, is that your liver alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme breaks down methanol to formic acid and formaldehyde and that attacks your optic nerve, and can produce blindness.



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