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try this.. - 5/24/2006 8:46 PM

steve_molmer

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using a camcorder or a digital recorder in a plane is nice as a novelty but its nothing like flying the plane from a first person point of view.
why not combined the two:
- control the record function from the ground in real time as you fly the plane by the video signal you see on your receiver setup.
- switch between the two cameras using an open channel on your transmitter.
- this way you will know you are getting the video you want to capture.

So-fare I have been able to get about 10 miles out with my video setup.
The only issue that I have now is to increase the range of the RC gear. Even with an LNA on the receiver I still loose signal at about 3 miles on a good day.
When signal is lost the autopilot kicks in and fallows wave points that have been pre programed into the system out to the target and then back to the field.
Until some one comes up with a way to add a linear RF amp to an RC transmitter that the FCC will give there OK on. The max range is limited to the GPS and the autopilot, and not the transmitter.

Note that fuel consumption and battery power are not as big a problem as it was in the past.
An RCV 91 only burns 1/4 ounce of fuel per minute at 1/2 throttle.
A 8 amp 15c lipo cell will run your electronics for hours and hours.

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RE: try this.. - 5/24/2006 10:13 PM

Sky High

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10 miles!? You mentioned wave points for positioning. Didn't you mean way points? If you search this forum thoroughly you will see that others have already done the two camera set up and extended flights with GPS way point positioning.

< Message edited by Sky High -- 5/24/2006 10:15 PM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/25/2006 5:07 PM

steve_molmer

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Wave point positioning is a combination of fixed GPS way points and RF Beacon tracking and control. The GPS is only used to set location over the basic flight path that is predetermined ahead of time. The beacon system allows the aircraft to for lack of a better word “phone home, and ask what if” when it:
-- sees an obstruction, new building, another approaching aircraft ect. (This should not be confused with collision avoidance or other aspects associated with fully autonomous flight)
-- a new target of opportunity
-- gives the aircraft the ability to be controlled by multiple ground stations simultaneously, or by the one in range that it selects
-- this also allows a small secondary airplane to be dropped form the main plane this smaller air plane is then sent to a separate target via beacon control.
The main plane will then fly the small plane using its on-board controller.

The plane in the video is a trainer platform. (rev c)
We are now on (rev h)
If you are ever out at the CCRC in Cobb GA.
I will be happy to show you how the system work. (to a point)

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RE: try this.. - 5/25/2006 8:00 PM

JettPilot

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Hi Steve,

There is a way around the RC transmitter problem. I have put an external antenna on my RC transmitter to get more range and it has worked well for me. Look at the tripod in the picture below, that is my RC TX antanna. How did you get video at 10 miles ? What frequency, antennas and Video TX power are you running to get that far ? How high were you when you did that ? I also tried the low noise preamp on my system, but it did not help my range much....

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RE: try this.. - 5/26/2006 4:42 PM

Ladyflyer

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It is worthwhile to mention that is illegal in the US to modify the antenna on unlicensed RC transmitters in order to increase range.
Likewise, the legal issues flying hobby RC aircraft beyond visual range.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JettPilot

Hi Steve,

There is a way around the RC transmitter problem. I have put an external antenna on my RC transmitter to get more range and it has worked well for me. Look at the tripod in the picture below, that is my RC TX antanna. How did you get video at 10 miles ? What frequency, antennas and Video TX power are you running to get that far ? How high were you when you did that ? I also tried the low noise preamp on my system, but it did not help my range much....

< Message edited by Ladyflyer -- 5/26/2006 4:45 PM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/26/2006 6:57 PM

Sport_Pilot

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From his equipment, I would say Jett pilot is a ham, and therefore, possibly, legal.

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RE: try this.. - 5/26/2006 6:59 PM

Sport_Pilot

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From his equipment, I would say Jett pilot is a ham, and therefore, possibly, legal.

Also I an unaware of any legal issues of flying past visual range, other than civil negligence.

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RE: try this.. - 5/26/2006 7:30 PM

steve_molmer

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Jettpilot:
Your setup looks good.
I am using a high gain antenna to get extended range on my transmitter and an LNA on the receiver.
The FCC rule do not allow for an RF amp on the 72MHz transmitter.
To ALL:
I hold an UAV operator certificate.
As far as altitude and distance from the air field that I fly, a certificate of authorization from the FAA
Is required to operate at these distances and a flight plan must be filed a minimum of 30 days prier to a high altitude flight.
If the FAA doses not approve of the flight plan we do not fly out of the AMA limits for that field until we have approval.
Look with this type of flying I always look at safety first.
When I am training a new pilot the first thing that I teach them after they have proven their ability to fly by the video and OSD is that the airplane is expendable.
In general, they are trained to put it into a tree or the ground to avoid public property and people if all ells fails.

< Message edited by steve_molmer -- 5/26/2006 7:33 PM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/27/2006 1:36 AM

Ladyflyer

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Sorry Spurt, I was not insinuating that HE is not a ham. Buying the equipment does not make you a ham however.
HE may very well be a ham but that was not the point. The comment was for general INFORMATION.A caution for the non hams who may, after seeing the photos think it is all right. Even hams have power limits on the 50MHz frequencies alloted to RC aircraft. Perhaps that question was not on the exam you took when you got your license. There are laws against RC flyers flying beyond line of sight. Of course laws only apply to some folks when they agree with a personal interpretation , Right? I have no doubt you are unaware,but ignorance is a weak defense at best. More ignorance will not improve your case.
Yes Jett, The pictures you posted look fine. And I was not insinuating that you are breaking any laws. Merely a caution to others who may not realize the legal aspects.

I have seen your excellent video. Can you say where the flights took place? The terrain is pretty interesting, almost a SE Asian quality.

Thank you Steve for the Clarification.

< Message edited by Ladyflyer -- 5/27/2006 2:16 AM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/28/2006 8:03 PM

bluethunder8000

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Great work Steve,
but you ddn't tell us -as jett pilot asked you- about the VID TX power and what was your MAX altitude you reach to get such distance ? don't you afraid of flying glow engine over this distance is that reliable ?

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RE: try this.. - 5/29/2006 8:07 PM

JettPilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladyflyer

Even hams have power limits on the 50MHz frequencies alloted to RC aircraft.

There are laws against RC flyers flying beyond line of sight. Of course laws only apply to some folks when they agree with a personal interpretation , Right?

I am a Ham and while there are power limits, there is no rule against me building and using high gain antennas

As far as a law against flying an RC plane beyond line of sight... Maybe in the socialist state of Canada there is such a law, socialist governments are always control freaks, so it would not suprise me... Here in the US we have no law against flying an RC plane beyond visual sight. If you are interpreting the law this way then you are the only one trying to "see what you want to see rather than seeing reality."

JettPilot

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RE: try this.. - 5/29/2006 11:25 PM

twinturbostang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JettPilot
As far as a law against flying an RC plane beyond line of sight... Maybe in the socialist state of Canada there is such a law, socialist governments are always control freaks, so it would not suprise me... Here in the US we have no law against flying an RC plane beyond visual sight.

Ahem....

AMA Model Aircraft Safety Code

Radio Control
10. The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot.

Disclaimer: This post is just a reference that such a law DOES exist. I have no opinion for or against this rule here.

< Message edited by twinturbostang -- 5/29/2006 11:27 PM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 1:46 AM

MaxStanford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinturbostang

AMA Model Aircraft Safety Code

Radio Control
10. The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot.

Disclaimer: This post is just a reference that such a law DOES exist. I have no opinion for or against this rule here.

Your quote is from the AMA safety code, it has NO force of law. Your posting an AMA rule does not show in any way that such a law exists. If you and lady flyer are so knowledgeable about this "law" of yours, why dont you post it along with where it can be found.

< Message edited by MaxStanford -- 5/30/2006 1:47 AM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 2:36 PM

bkdavy

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The AMA Safety Code does not have the force of law, however the FAA Advisory Circular establishes guidelines for model aircraft operation. Having said that, note that the originator of this thread does state that he holds a UAV operator certificate from the FAA. Consequently, the Advisory Circular and the AMA safety code do not apply.

As for the extended range on the transmitter, its not clear that operating on 72 mhz that far from the transmitter is a very good idea, legal or not. As the plane gets further out, the odds of encountering radio interference from another flyer go up exponentially. I believe this activity would be better conducted under a HAM license, and getting specific frequency coordination from the FCC.

As for the use of a high gain antenna, 47CFR15.203 AND 47CFR15.204 do specifically prohibit use of any antenna other than the manufacturers supplied antenna in any intentional radiator operated under Part 15 (which our transmitters are).

Brad

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 2:37 PM

twinturbostang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxStanford
Your quote is from the AMA safety code, it has NO force of law. Your posting an AMA rule does not show in any way that such a law exists.

I don't know. Maybe it doesn't withstand any criminal charges. But you do forfeit any insurance the AMA would offer had you followed their "laws".

quote:

If you and lady flyer are so knowledgeable about this "law" of yours, why dont you post it along with where it can be found.

Look pal. I was just quoting a rule from the AMA Safety Code. I don't know of any other laws regarding this. That's not to say there aren't any though. As I said, I was just presenting information, that's it. But whatever... I'll let you children squable about the details.

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 3:37 PM

Ladyflyer

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Sorry Jett,

You are wrong, once again all the way around.

< Message edited by Ladyflyer -- 5/30/2006 7:22 PM >

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 4:02 PM

Ladyflyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladyflyer

Sorry Jett,

You are wrong, once again all the way around. There are indeed laws and ignorance is no defense no matter how much of it you can prove. I too live in the US at present, I even drive American cars I am an American citizen. Sorry to see you have hostility for our good neighbors. It fits well with your woman bashing comments once again.Most real men find to reason to bash women since they don't feel unduly threatened by them. No, YOU have not influenced my signature. Try not to asssume even more credit. It is a response to a piled up little hopped up Honda car that I saw in front of a Police station.it had the imature, mindless "No Fear" quote on the back. Now that I have read it yours makes even less sense. (The double negative thing)
The power limit on 6 Meter RC freqs is.1 Watt. The limit is there for good reason. It is to prevent interference. Finally I see where the relaxed license requrements have watered down the quality of amateur radio operators in general. Don't take it personally. Care? Only for the innocent.

BKDAVY;

Amateurs operate in the 50 MHz band under Part 97 FCC rules. .... Just a heads up

quote:

ORIGINAL: JettPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladyflyer

Even hams have power limits on the 50MHz frequencies alloted to RC aircraft.

There are laws against RC flyers flying beyond line of sight. Of course laws only apply to some folks when they agree with a personal interpretation , Right?

I am a Ham and while there are power limits, there is no rule against me building and using high gain antennas

As far as a law against flying an RC plane beyond line of sight... Maybe in the socialist state of Canada there is such a law, socialist governments are always control freaks, so it would not suprise me... Here in the US we have no law against flying an RC plane beyond visual sight. If you are interpreting the law this way then you are the only one trying to "see what you want to see rather than seeing reality." That does not bother me a bit tough, most women think that way.

I like your signature, im glad I had enough of an impact on you to care

JettPilot

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 4:03 PM

steve_molmer

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bluethunder8000:

Looks like Ive opened up a can of worms here...

The video transmitter power is 1 watt RF. (FCC legal limit)
Think of it this way, you can speak softly TX and lisen very hard RX.
Max altitude is about 25,000' give or take.
We use RCV 91's with heated fuel tanks, on board glow drivers. Both the low end and high end carb control valves are adjustable from the radio.
I use an oxygen sensor and controller to keep the engine from running lean.
By the way I have found that you can not stay over 18,000' for long periods of time do to low oxs and crab icing.
So fare I have only had 2 major flame outs. When it happens it is a white knuckle ride all the way down.
I hope this answers your question ,jett pilot, and bluethunder8000.
I apologias about the delay in getting back to you on this I have been off site for the past few days.
Cheers

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 5:46 PM

bluethunder8000

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quote:
Max altitude is about 25,000' give or take????

shall i say WOW it is ever the lighest alt to hear in fourm s

quote:
heated fuel tanks, on board glow drivers. Both the low end and high end carb control valves are adjustable from the radio.
I use an oxygen sensor and controller to keep the engine from running lean.

believe me i'm bright but right now i don't feel like that anymore
would you clarify it to me alittle and if there is a url or threads disscussing such add ons to the engine esp GAS engine to reach such altitude it would be nice of you to let me get my confidence once more that i'm still bright

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 7:15 PM

steve_molmer

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jett pilot:
For the LNA on the receiver.
You must use a notch filter between the antenna and the LNA. Also you must cut the antenna to the proper wave length for the RF RX frequency / channel that you are using. Ie.. 50 MHz notch filter and antenna must be trimmed to get the real benefit.
You do not need to use a high gain antenna on you transmitter if you can get a good 0 to 3 dbm antenna up and away from the issues of ground reflection, along with a tuned LNA and RX antenna you will see a very substantial gain in range.
You will need to putt your antenna on a pole as high as possible it will need to be higher that you have in your pict, I would say about 12’ would be fine to get max distance. But remember that you need to stay in the 800mW to 1W range to stay legal. Remember that the FCC rules that apply to a fixed point broadcast ie.. point to point do not apply to ground air broadcast to an aircraft, be-it a model or a full scale plane
Just one note on all this: you really need to stay in the limits posted by the FCC and the FAA.
The FCC uses some of this same tech to track and find illegal RF TX's all the time now.
The last one I helped with was a few years ago with one of my nav mops near an US base. Now note: that this supper geniuses was fling an rc plane equipped with all the video transmitter and telemetry goody’s just off base in restricted air space and on an illegal frequency for video TX use to top it off. ( one word covers this ” Dum #$^”)
The operations commander said and I quote:
“As I told the fellow after we took his plane, equipment, truck and him, yes 1.2GHz is illegal and yes we can and did see you from the time you turned on your transmitter till it was taken from you.”
For 2.4GHz you can get a waver from the FCC that allows for 4 watts when setting up point to multipoint for date broadcast and 1 Watt for point to point. This may require an RF survey of the area you wish to fly in.
I believe the only frequency range that is open for 4 watts or more for direct air to ground video broadcast is being suggested is the 5.8GHz range. At the point the equipment is almost non existence and the FCC is yet to pass final rule.
These are just a few word of advice take it or leave it.
regards

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 7:19 PM

steve_molmer

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bluethunder8000
email me direct on this it would take a very long time to cover this in a forum.
smolmer@ad-holdingsinc.com
cheers

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 7:41 PM

bkdavy

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Lady flyer:
Regarding operation on 50 MHz band under part 97. Note that the originator made reference to operating on 72 mhz, not 50 mhz, and mentioned that he was not permitted to use an RF amplifier on 72 mhz. The implication was that he was using a high gain antenna on a 72 mhz transmitter under part 15, which if not supplied by the manufacturer and certified by the FCC, is not legal.

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 7:56 PM

Ladyflyer

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Right, Thank you . I understood that . I was just clarifying since Jett claims to be a ham operating on 50 MHz. I had already commented on the illegal aspects of enhancing transmitter performance on the license free bands. It was worth pointing out that the amateur and license free operations are governed by different rule sets.

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RE: try this.. - 5/30/2006 8:49 PM

JettPilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladyflyer

Sorry Jett,

You are wrong, once again all the way around.

You seem to have no trouble spouting off how I am wrong and that certain things are illegal, but you fail to produce any kind of evidence or regulation.

Advisory circulars are NOT law, AMA does NOT write law either. Ladyflyer, you seem to be desperately holding onto a beleif that is just not reality, grow up...

As far as the radio part of it, I am a licensed ham operating on ham frequencys, and im operating within FCC regulations.

JettPilot

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RE: try this.. - 5/31/2006 12:45 AM

bkdavy

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Although the advisory circular is not "law", the FCC has made it abundantly clear that if people do not abide by the conditions stated in the advisory circular and fought for by the AMA, it would probably act to create regulations, which I'm sure would be quite restrictive on flying RC aircraft beyond visual range. If a person intends to operate such airplanes, they are best advised to contact the FAA and obtain a UAV operator certificate as the originator (Steve Molmer) has done.

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