Will one fuel do it all? (Full Version)

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olgoat -> Will one fuel do it all? (5/30/2006 3:14:35 AM)

I have a GMS 76 2 stroke which I use Power Master 10% nitro with 18% syn/Castor oil mix, YS91 and Saito56 that I use Power Master YS/Saito 20/20 all syn and recently bought an OS 91 4 stroke that according to the instruction the fuel I use in my GMS 76 is acceptable. Is there a fuel that I can use in all of my engines? Can I use all synthetic in a 2 stroke?

Thanks in advance,
Lonnie



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/5/2006 5:18:38 PM)

i use Morgans (Cool Power) 30% Heli fuel in all my glow engines (2-stroke/4-stroke planks or helis), it's all synthetic and gives great performance and life in all engines I've used over the past 16+ yrs in this hobby with the exception of one.........a K&B engine, the only way i got that engine to run right was with a Castor based fuel, it wasn't the best engine in the world so i ditched it and replaced it with an OS and solved that problem.

kc



olgoat -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/6/2006 6:13:36 AM)

kc,

Thank you for the info, I believe I'll switch to all syn. fuel, carrying 2 or 3 different cans of fuel really sucks.

Lonnie



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/6/2006 6:57:49 AM)

it makes life allot simpler when you got a 1 does all for your glow engines. I've still got another fuel container for the 100 octane low lead aviation gas for the gassers but it's not that big of a deal between just those two. good luck and enjoy the flying.

kc



Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/6/2006 8:53:05 AM)

Hello I seen the post and thought I would drop a line saying what I have been using for several yrs WO any probs .
I run 15 % nitro with 20 total oil 3% of it is castor .Normally this fuel is 18 % oil all syn but I have it mixed with the extra oil for my 4 strokes so I can take just one jug with me at a time .So far all of my engines have liked this brew with out any bearing failures or scored cyl walls or pistons ,although I can get more out of the 4 strokes with more nitro ,I feel why prematurely wear out a $ 3-500 engine when I don't really need the extra HP.
MY gassers I use a amsoil 80-1 mix with great results .

Oh just for the record When done flying for the day I always drain the tank then run the engine and whats left in the tank dry and if its not going to be used for any length of time I will add a after run oil ,my choice is just plain old ATF ,with the exception of the YS brand .
Hope this helps Happy Landings.



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/6/2006 9:11:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf

............,I feel why prematurely wear out a $ 3-500 engine when I don't really need the extra HP.


I'll bet you that my running the higher nitro with more power but running cooler will last longer then your lower powered hot running engine. heat is the death of an engine not RPM (within the Recommended Range). I've got an OS 70 surpass that swings a 10x10 APC at just over 10 grand with the 30% fuel, it's 7+ yrs old and runs just as good today as it did when it was new, it's still all original and has only had the valves adjusted once after initial break-in. my flying partner has a Saito 45 that never misses a tic and been running 30% for i know the past 10 yrs (the engine is conciderably older then that but ran 15% prior to the 30%)

understand that Nitro is one of the few things in life (just mentioned this in another post about the same subject the other day) that IS a 'Win Win' situation. not only is it a power boosting product it's also a cooling agent. in all other instances of engines more power means more heat, this is not the case with nitro. you can however get to a to high a percentage and get pre-ignition which is detrimental to an engine as it over stresses the con-rod but this isn't the case in any of the 4-strokes running 30% and only a very few cases with 2 stroke applications (heli's and ducted fans) but these few cases can be cured by adding a head shim to lower compression.

and just for giggles, Castor is not recommended in 4-strokes due to the carbon deposits and build up on the exhaust valve(s) although allot of your 4-stroke fuels are a Castor/Synthetic blend.

kc




Dr Nitro -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/9/2006 11:18:29 PM)

I run just about anything I have laying around in just about anything I have. From FAI all castor fuel to Control line blends to 30% and 40% fuels for my helis.
All it normaly takes is retuning the engine and possibly changing glow plugs on any of a bunch of different engines.
Of course, I don't run high nitro in my MVVS or Rossi engines or anything under 20% in my YS's. Pretty much anything else is adjust and fly.
Do not be afraid of a little castor in your fuel, it will do no harm to your YS or other 4 strokes, as long as it is in small quantities.



loughbd -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (6/10/2006 3:58:01 AM)

I use one fuel for all my glow engines except my tartan. 10% nitro, 20% castor oil.

If you use straight synthetic get ready to replace bearings on a regular basis.



Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (8/30/2006 3:54:57 AM)

Go here and read what all they say about nitro contentand heat . www.rcaircraftprovinggrounds.com this is just one of many .If this doesn't convince you I suggest you get a temp gage and do some experimenting yourself.
And FYI I don't run my engines hot ever.
As far as using a little Castor in my fuel ,carbon is easier to clean than paying for new parts but so far theres never been any need to clean squat. I to have engines well over 15 yrs old that still run and look as good as new
Oh please keep on using that 30 % in your 2 strokes ,I hear that sales are down .



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (8/31/2006 12:59:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf

Go here and read what all they say about nitro contentand heat . www.rcaircraftprovinggrounds.com this is just one of many .If this doesn't convince you I suggest you get a temp gage and do some experimenting yourself.


Not sure who you're so hostile toward but, i have done the testing and when you tach an engine with FAI (0 nitro) and take a temp reading after it has stabilized, then take 30% nitro and prop the engine so you get the SAME RPM (you have to keep the RPM the same or your add in heat from friction as a major contributor) you'll find the 30% runs the same engine considerably cooler at the same RPMs.

quote:

And FYI I don't run my engines hot ever.
As far as using a little Castor in my fuel ,carbon is easier to clean than paying for new parts......


why on earth would you ever need new parts, you just said you do not run your engines hot, Castor serves its only strength at that critical point during an engine run, if it never got hot (ran lean) then you will never gain any benefit from using the Castor.

quote:

....... but so far theres never been any need to clean squat. I to have engines well over 15 yrs old that still run and look as good as new


if you've ran any engine for any amount of time with Castor oil in the fuel there will ALWAYS be a brown carbon build up on the engine, you can't avoid it, and if by some miracle you have ran an engine for 15 yrs, hell even 15 min, with a Castor based fuel and it 'still looks as good as new' then your the only person in the entire world who has and you have some tinker bell fairy protecting the engine from the Castor build up.

quote:

Oh please keep on using that 30 % in your 2 strokes ,I hear that sales are down .


Thank you I will, it's worked without a single problem for close to 20 yrs and the only staining/tarnishing i have out of the 30% all synthetic is from the red dye used in the coloration of the fuel, it has a tendency to dye the piston/sleeve/etc.. but causes no interference with performance or longevity.

kc




Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (8/31/2006 4:12:56 PM)

Here we go again energy makes heat, more energy makes more heat ,more nitro won't cool off a engine more oil will.
I guess all the fuel facts are wrong and fuelman plus everyone else thats made posts on this subject are wrong as well.
I don't think so .

I'm not hostal at anyone but I don't like you coming on here and saying how my engine wont last like yours due to the fact I am over heating them running the proper fuel thats recomended by the manufacture.

I seen a man take a new 160 OS after break in and use 30% fuel in it ,it lasted 3 less than tanks and seized up due to over heating BTW it was properly tuned .So you do what you want but leave me alone for doing what I feel is right by my engines.

The OP was can a person run one fuel and I told the man yes I have been for quite some time .Then you pop in here and say how my engine wont last as long as yours which has nothing to do with the original OP question in the first place .
If you was trying to be helpful and I took it the wrong way i'm sorry.
We do agree on one thing heat kills engines .
And using more nitro does make higher cylinder pressure,advances the timing ,higher exhaust temps, these things lead to higher operating temps .

Heres one of my older engines than ran 20 plus gallons of fuel thru it .Still runs letter perfect and looks new and has never seen a antifreeze bath .



loughbd -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (8/31/2006 7:04:06 PM)

Nitro is added to increase power. It does it by acting as an oxidizer. This generates more heat and heat results directly in more power.

As far as what's the best fuel, it's like asking what is the best automobile. Ask ten people and you will get ten answers. It's a fool's question.

Yes, as you said, you can pretty much use one fuel for most glow engines. I use 10% nitro, 20% castor oil and 70% methanol in all my glow engines except theTartans and the YS's. Notice I said 20% castor oil. That's what I run in my 4 cycles too. I almost never have to take one apart to clean carbon out of them. Yes they tend to turn brown inside but they don't burn up and my bearings NEVER rust. I have a Saito 45 with the BOLT ON HEAD that I bought over 25 years ago. I finally had to change bearings in it. They actually finally wore out. No rust, just worn out. That engine has been in constant use since I bought it in Japan. One set of bearings in 25 years and valve cleaning maybe twice in the same time frame. That's why I use castor oil as my lube. Synthetic is OK as long as you add some castor, maybe 2 to 5%. Just like Clarence Lee does.

Any good commercial fuel is fine. If the fuel was no good, the company wouldn't be in business.

To all of you that would like to read what THE model engine man (Clarence Lee) has to say about nitro methane and fuel in general, get a copy of his book, The R/C Engine, Vol III. Then look on page 40, Chapter 5.

Here is a little quote from that section by Lee. "In the final analysis we might quote from a long time West Coast engine expert, Luke Roy, who states: "Adding nitromethane to fuel can solve overheating problems...when the engine seizes up, it'll cool off"."

I will continue to use castor oil and moderate nitro and run our engines until the cows come home.

Bruce Loughridge
AMA 13797 since 1956

Moderator removed a couple paragraphs....



Rcpilot -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 12:06:03 AM)

I use Omega 5% in all my engines. I've been running that fuel for about 6yrs. I put it in everything from old worn out 40SF engines up to OS 4-strokes and TT 4-strokes. I've run it in Moki 1.35, Moki 1.80 and the 2.10 I've run it in the MDS 1.48 and the MDS 2.18. I've run it in ALL the Big Cats from the 2000 all the way up to the 4500 (Thats Super Tigre for you newbies--and YES, it IS spelled T I G R E and NOT T I G E R) I've run that fuel in every engine I've owned since 1999.

17% oil. 30% castor and 70% synthetic

Haven't cooked one yet. I buy 5% 'cause I'm cheap. I used to run 10% and even 15% sometimes--but just don't see the need for it anymore. I put big enough engines on my planes that I'm not looking for absolute max power or max RPM out of each engine. I usually overpower my planes by at least 50% over the factory recommended size. Sometimes I've got twice the max recommended engine on a plane.

Keep in mind that my glow planes are small 40 size 3D planes. Most have a .75 engine--thats on 40 and 46 size planes.

When you have that much HP hanging off the firewall--5% works just fine.

I did run a gallon of 20% nitro through a Tower Hobbies .75 once. It was neat and had rediculous power, but not worth the price at $24 a gallon.

For just normal sport flying--use 5% or 10%. Anymore than that is a waste of money.

Start competing in pattern or racing or something else where prizes and money are on the line--I'd probably jump way up to 30% fuel. But for Sunday flying--anything more than 10% is wasted money.

If your flying a brick with an old Royal .40 and you need 40% nitro to get it off a 600' runway--knuckle up and buy a new motor you cheap turkey. [sm=lol.gif]



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 3:00:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf

Here we go again energy makes heat, more energy makes more heat ,more nitro won't cool off a engine more oil will.
I guess all the fuel facts are wrong and fuelman plus everyone else thats made posts on this subject are wrong as well.
I don't think so .


and the guys/gals a few blocks from my house who MFG Morgan Fuel and the club members that have done their testing from day one are wrong too huh??? very unlikely.

quote:

I'm not hostal at anyone but I don't like you coming on here and saying how my engine wont last like yours due to the fact I am over heating them running the proper fuel thats recomended by the manufacture.


No, that was you with your 'I feel why prematurely wear out a $ 3-500 engine when I don't really need the extra HP.' comment.

quote:

I seen a man take a new 160 OS after break in and use 30% fuel in it ,it lasted 3 less than tanks and seized up due to over heating BTW it was properly tuned .


how ignorant must one be to realize, if it overheated, it wasn't 'properly tuned' overheating was caused by either to little ventilation over the engine/head or it ran lean, doesn't get much more simple then that.

quote:

So you do what you want but leave me alone for doing what I feel is right by my engines.


do whatever you like, but when you start blowing smoke up someones tail about something you obviously know next to nothing about, I'm gonna point it out.

quote:

The OP was can a person run one fuel and I told the man yes I have been for quite some time .Then you pop in here and say how my engine wont last as long as yours which has nothing to do with the original OP question in the first place .


i guess you really are so ignorant that you cant see i posted long before you popped into the thread with your, here we go again, 'I feel why prematurely wear out a $ 3-500 engine when I don't really need the extra HP.' comment.

enough time wasted on ignorant people
kc




downunder -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 3:03:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KC36330
when you tach an engine with FAI (0 nitro) and take a temp reading after it has stabilized, then take 30% nitro and prop the engine so you get the SAME RPM (you have to keep the RPM the same or your add in heat from friction as a major contributor) you'll find the 30% runs the same engine considerably cooler at the same RPMs.

With that much nitro you'll be pouring fuel into it at maybe twice the rate as with FAI fuel. A lot of a 2 stroke's cooling comes from internal cooling by the fuel so basically that's what you've shown, not that nitro automatically makes them run cooler. But at twice the consumption and maybe twice the price it's costing 4 times as much to run a little cooler and swing a slightly larger prop. I'm with Rcpilet, I use the next size up engine :)



Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 8:06:08 AM)

I have showed you a couple places where they state the facts so far all you have done is run off your key board and called me names .So who actually is the ignorant one here .
Show some documentation by some real people.

[ No, that was you with your 'I feel why prematurely wear out a $ 3-500 engine when I don't really need the extra HP.' comment. ]



This one cuts the cake ,you don't think adding extra strain and cylinder pressures of 30% nitro is not going to hurt your engines? plus the fact your swinging a larger prop than is more than likely recommended,Another extra strain bonus and yet you have the nerve to set there and say your engine will out last one thats been properly taken care of.

And I also agree with Rcpilet get a bigger engine if you need that much power !
And as far as me knowing a little about engines ,Owner and operator of a Automotive Machine shop for 30 yrs I think qualifies me as knowing some .

Ok I give oh mighty know it all Engine God ! Were all wrong and your right .
There ya happy !!!!!!!!






KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 10:26:37 AM)

quote:

From Wikipedia

Nitromethane is used as a fuel in racing, particularly drag racing, to provide more power.[2] In this context, it is commonly referred to as "nitro" or just "fuel".

The oxygen content of nitromethane enables it to burn with much less atmospheric oxygen in comparison to hydrocarbons such as gasoline:

4CH3NO2 + 3O2 → 4CO2 + 6H2O + 2N2
14.6 kg of air are required to burn one kg of gasoline, but only 1.7 kg of air for one kg of nitromethane. Since an engine’s cyliner can only contain a limited amount of air on each stroke, 8.7 times more nitromethane than gasoline can be burned in one stroke. However, nitromethane has a lower energy density. Gasoline provides about 42-44 MJ/kg, nitromethane provides only 11.3 MJ/kg. This analysis indicates that nitromethane generate about 2.3 times the power of gasoline when combined with a given amount of oxygen.

Nitromethane can also be used as a monopropellant. Without additional oxygen nitromethane will combust according to:

4CH3NO2 → 4CO + 4H2O + 2H2 + 2N2
Nitromethane has a laminar combustion velocity of approx. 0.5 m/s, somewhat higher than gasoline. Thus nitromethane is suitable for high speed engines. Somewhat higher is also the flame temperature at about 2400 °C. The high heat of vaporisation of 0.56 MJ/kg together with the high fuel flow does however provide a high cooling of the incoming charge (about twice that of methanol), resulting in reasonably low temperatures. In a Top Fuel dragracing engine this alone will provide the cooling of the engine.

Nitromethane is usually used with rich air/fuel mixtures. This is partly because nitromethane can provide power even in the absence of atmospheric oxygen, as described above, but it's also because nitromethane tends to produce severe knock and pre-ignition. Rich mixtures do however cause ignition problems and a lower combustion speed.

When rich air/fuel mixtures are used, hydrogen and carbon monoxide will be two of the combustion products, when these and any unburned fuel comes into contact with the oxygen in the atmosphere at the end of the exhaust pipes they often ignite. The result is spectacular flames from the exhaust system.

A small amount of hydrazine blended in nitromethane can increase the power output even further. With nitromethane, hydrazine forms an explosive salt that can combust by using only the oxygen in the nitromethane. This mixture is unstable, so it poses a severe safety hazard.

In model aircraft and car "glow" fuel, the primary ingredient is generally methanol with some nitromethane (0% to 65%, but rarely over 30% since nitromethane is expensive compared to methanol) and 10-20% lubricants (usually castor oil or a synthetic oil.) Even moderate amounts of nitromethane tends to increase the power created by the engine (as the limiting factor is often the air intake) and make the engine easier to tune (adjust for the proper air/fuel ratio) properly.

Nitromethane has also been used as a rocket fuel.



in case you missed it: The high heat of vaporisation of 0.56 MJ/kg together with the high fuel flow does however provide a high cooling of the incoming charge (about twice that of methanol), resulting in reasonably low temperatures. In a Top Fuel dragracing engine this alone will provide the cooling of the engine.

and from one of my earlier posts: understand that Nitro is one of the few things in life (just mentioned this in another post about the same subject the other day) that IS a 'Win Win' situation. not only is it a power boosting product it's also a cooling agent. and it also slows the burning of the methanol down so your not " adding extra strain and cylinder pressures of 30% nitro" as you put it.

i see that your 30 yrs of machine shopping were spent on mini vans, Yugo's, and other gasoline burners not Top Fuel nitro engines.

kc



RaceCity -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 5:45:54 PM)

I suppose it would be rude of me to inquire why Top Fuel engines have a lifespan of perhaps one or two trips down the 1/4 mile?

It would seem that an engine operating in such a cool, strain free environment would last perhaps forever?




KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 7:26:21 PM)

that little 8.9 liter engine is pushing out 6,000-8,000 horsepower and sucking fuel at just over a gallon per second which puts them from 0 to 330+ MPH down a 1/4 mile strip in 4.5 seconds and the exhaust gas from the headers is producing over 800 lbs of thrust alone, not to mention they are running 85% nitro and the engines are rebuilt after every 'lap' which is about 3 minuets of run time that consumes roughly 180 gallon of fuel, get your glow engine to burn 180 gallon of any type fuel without a problem and my hats off to you.

most people don't realize that engine has a complete oil change and refuel while it's running during that 3 min lifespan. the major reason for 99% of 'blown engines' while going down the track are from the tires breaking loose and spinning, this causes the engine to unload and that cools it down so the fuel doesn't burn as completely, this floods the cylinders with fuel and causes them to hydraulic lock and break rods/sleeves/etc.... keep in mind this engine is supercharged to close to 5 bars.

kc

Edit: had to change the wording in that last part a bit to make it more clear



Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/1/2006 9:28:27 PM)

Actually there has been numerous race engines built in the shop over the years .
As far as Yugos and mini vans I leave them to more experienced personnel like yourself to handle, there right up your alley

Like I said before theres allot of writing and nothing that proves chit .Show me where Don Nix or fuelman or any authority thats well known say a higher nitro content will lower temps .
Sure running twice the amount of fuel will have a cooling effect ,but theres other factors that enter this equation you just don't seem to understand .

You don't seem to get that nitro raises the compression ratio thus higher cylinder pressures ,which in turn adds more strain and stress to everything .It also advances the timing and unless the engine has been modified, in most cases if to much nitro is used it will cause detonation and can melt a piston top, break rods ,crank pins, bend valves the list goes on .



KC36330 -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/2/2006 3:03:50 AM)


quote:

Like I said before theres allot of writing and nothing that proves chit .Show me where Don Nix or fuelman or any authority thats well .........


I'm sorry that you worship such well known fuel MFGs and Morgan fuel is of such a low authority in your opinion, geeze i hope they are able to keep sales up being so low on the totem pole

quote:

You don't seem to get that nitro raises the compression ratio thus higher cylinder pressures ,which in turn adds more strain and stress to everything .It also advances the timing and unless the engine has been modified, in most cases if to much nitro is used it will cause detonation and can melt a piston top, break rods ,crank pins, bend valves the list goes on .


you're absolutely right, i don't get it. compression ratio has to do with volume, running nitro has no change on the head space nor the stroke so that aspect of compression does not change, and with nitro-methanol having less density then methanol alone also lowers compression, it also slows the burning rate of the methanol and that in turn reduces compression............and just so you know, the heat of the glow plug determines the advance/retard of timing on a glow engine, port timing is nitro based due to the increase of burn times that higher nitro content use causes. your argument holds up well in reference to a gasoline engine, but you're lost like a ball in high grass on a nitro burner.

kc



Cyberwolf -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/2/2006 3:22:33 AM)

Why your at it why don't you rewrite the book of physics .
You dont have clue what nitro even does .
Its a oxygenator ,do you have any clue as to what that means????????
Well hurray for you ya got one half right a glow plug will change timing also .
Goodbye turkey ,you know more than all of us ever will I don't know why you waste your time even coming on here you should be soaking up the sun with all your money that knowledge has made you.*LMAO*



downunder -> RE: Will one fuel do it all? (9/2/2006 4:27:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KC36330
that little 8.9 liter engine is pushing out 6,000-8,000 horsepower

Shucks, that's nothing cos even taking the best figures that works out to 900 HP/litre. A CL speed engine (2.5cc) pumps out around 2.7HP which is 1080 HP/litre. That's on straight methanol/castor, no nitro, no supercharging..just a really good pipe (yes, I know a pipe has a supercharging affect but not exactly 5 bar :)).

There's a few arguments being thrown around here that don't make any sense, like a drag engine burning 180 gallons of fuel between rebuilds so it must be better than a glow engine. I could turn that around by asking you to show me a drag engine that can run at 40,000 revs (even for an instant).

I also think there's a bit of confusion here with the difference between compression ratio and peak combustion pressures.

Ignition timing in glow engines is controlled by a combination of both plug heat range and compression pressure.



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