ringed engine break in?  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Glow Engines >> ringed engine break in?
Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 1:40:33 AM   
peewee ridge racer


 

Posts: 2
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Park City, KY, USA
Status: offline 		Could someone give me some advice or just tell me how to break in a ringed nitro air plane engine? the engine is a GMS 120 using 15% nitro and 16% castor/synthetic oil
       Post #: 1

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 2:30:54 AM   
bingo field



Posts: 1052
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Mt. Morris, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Download any of SuperTigres manuals and it has a breakin proceedure for their motors. Doesnt GMS have a website?

_____________________________

http://www.tailhook.org/AVSLANG.htm
Sign over Ready Room Door: "Complacency Kills" - Thimk

(in reply to peewee ridge racer)
       Post #: 2

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 2:58:07 AM   
proptop



Posts: 4703
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: Rome, NY, USA
Status: offline 		You might get several differing opinions...let's see, aye?!
My method is just to run the first tank thru as rich as possable and still stay running. Sometimes I'll leave the plug battery on for awhile...meaning it's running so rich that if you take the batt. off, it'll quit on you.
Then lean it out some for the next tank, so that the plug batt. is not required, but still quite rich.

I will generally just run a couple- three tanks through an engine on a stand, then fly it...because I think extended test stand running is just a waste of fuel.
If you can get the carb adjusted to give you a decent idle and transition, then put in in the airplane and fly it, because it will get better cooling airflow there. (unless it's in a tight cowl or something )



< Message edited by proptop -- 5/31/2006 3:00:06 AM >


_____________________________

It''s bad luck to be superstitious...
Revver Bro #77

(in reply to bingo field)
       Post #: 3

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 4:01:43 AM   
downunder



Posts: 3314
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I do it pretty much the way proptop said except I like to run them for about an hour ending up in a rich 2 stroke then a few flights starting at that same setting but a bit leaner each flight. Also I'd use a lot more oil than that 16%, at least 20% or more.

(in reply to proptop)
       Post #: 4

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 6:16:35 AM   
loughbd


 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/29/2003
From: Bremerton, WA, USA
Status: offline 		I break in engines using the manufacturer's recommendation. They made it and I would think they know how to break one in.

(in reply to downunder)
       Post #: 5

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 3:14:22 PM   
Flyboy Dave



Posts: 13551
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: San Bernardino County, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Running ringed engines that rich is harmful, non-productive, and a waste of
fuel. Whomever it was that started the rumor/procedure that ringed engines
need a super rich breakin, didn't know what he was talking about.

Running the engines that rich will keep them from breaking in, meaning seating
the ring. Keep in mind that we are running 4-5 times more oil than a regular
engine. If you run a ringed engine too rich, too long....you will glaze the cylinder
wall and the ring will not seat, or it will take forever to seat. You will have an
engine that will not produce full power, or idle well because of excessive blow-by,
and low compression.

FBD.







_____________________________

An engineer says.... "That won''t work".
A mechanic says..."Oh yeah, watch this".
"Old Age, and Treachery will overcome youth and skill".
Revver Bro #4.

(in reply to loughbd)
       Post #: 6

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 3:20:19 PM   
downunder



Posts: 3314
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loughbd
I break in engines using the manufacturer's recommendation.

That's fine if you buy a new one in the box but a lot of guys pick up a new engine without the box or instructions. But even some of the manufacturer's recommendations are so vague you can't figure out what they mean. I ran in my Rossi exactly by the recommendations, that means I had a "greasy" exhaust

(in reply to loughbd)
       Post #: 7

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 7:34:59 PM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		All:

Excerpt from my "Saito Notes."

quote:

Break in of a fresh engine
A piston ring is seated in the first few seconds of engine running after its installation. This holds from the smallest to the largest of ringed engines, and is dependent on cylinder pressure to force the ring against the bore. Therefore, the initial running should be done at a high power setting.

My way is to allow the engine a few seconds to come up in temperature, then I immediately peak the mixture at full throttle, then right back to idle. For the first few minutes of running the engine goes to full throttle for about five seconds, then back to a rich idle for twenty. This gives me the high cylinder pressure to seat the ring while at full, and then at idle more oil is spread on the working parts.

After these first few minutes I'll go back to full and get about 800 rpm rich drop, then lean the idle a bit but not all the way, and put the engine in a plane. Over the next hour or two I'll slowly lean the idle, and bring the HS closer to peak. After a couple hours total time the engine is all ready for extended high power, and I've been able to fly the fuel through the engine instead of oiling the grass at my house. Or not oiling the grass as much as many do.

Not per most manufacturers, but it works for me.

Bill.


_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

(in reply to downunder)
       Post #: 8

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 9:37:24 PM   
Rcpilot


 

Posts: 6840
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loughbd

I break in engines using the manufacturer's recommendation. They made it and I would think they know how to break one in.


Thats funny, because a lot of manufacturers tell you to run an ABC engine stupid rich for initial break in. And we all know what that does to an ABC engine. Don't we?

Manufacturers tell us to run our engines overly rich because that gaurantees that the connecting rod bushing won't seize on the crank pin. They could care less what that overly rich break in does to long term engine performance, they just want to avoid a warranty claim from a stuck rod bushing. It's strictly a C.Y.A. thing on the part of the manufacturers.

I haven't read an engine manual since my first new one that I bought over 8yrs ago. I read the manual on that engine and did the break in according to the manaul and I effectively ruined the engine. It was an OS 120 Surpass non-pumped engine, and I broke it in just like the manual said. Word for word. That engine turned into one of the biggest POS I have ever had the displeasure of owning. That was purely the fault of the break in. I didn't know it at the time. I thought 4-strokes just sucked. It wasn't untill I discovered RCU and started reading posts from guys like FBD and W8YE that it finally dawned on me why that OS Surpass was such a POS. It was because I broke it in according to the manual. Who better than to tell you how to break it in but that manufacturer--right? Total BS.

Didn't take me but one engine, and $350 to figure out what was going on.

My break in procedure NOW:
I add 4oz of castor to a fresh gallon of 5% Omega fuel and break them in like I plan to run them. WFO and screaming bloody murder with a small diameter--high pitch prop that will let them run at MAX rated RPM or darn close to it for a couple tanks. Haven't cooked one yet, or had a turd engine from my break in procedure in the last 8yrs.

Break it in like your trying to break it. If it breaks, then send it back. If it doesn't break, then it never will. Babying an engine with too much fuel and low RPM isn't really babying it at all. It's ruining it. They are made to run, and run well. Start it up and run it WFO with the main needle about 1/2--3/4 turn rich with a tiny prop and let it scream.


_____________________________

Airplanes have expiration dates. It''s just not printed anywhere on them.
I''m not really an airplane pilot; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

(in reply to loughbd)
       Post #: 9

RE: ringed engine break in? - 5/31/2006 9:56:26 PM   
loughbd


 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/29/2003
From: Bremerton, WA, USA
Status: offline 		The guy that started that "rumor was Clarence Lee, Dave Geirke and the manufacturers among others.

RCpilot,

And which manufacturer says to run an ABC engine rich at anytime? Not OS, Enya or any of the other major manufacturers. I have had three OS120 Surpasses, two FS120's and dozens of other OS four cycles and two cycles and broke them in according to manufacturers instructions and EVERY SINGLE ONE was/is a great running engine.

(in reply to Flyboy Dave)
       Post #: 10

RE: ringed engine break in? - 6/1/2006 3:42:52 AM   
Rcpilot


 

Posts: 6840
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loughbd

The guy that started that !QUOT!rumor was Clarence Lee, Dave Geirke and the manufacturers among others.

RCpilot,

And which manufacturer says to run an ABC engine rich at anytime? Not OS, Enya or any of the other major manufacturers. I have had three OS120 Surpasses, two FS120's and dozens of other OS four cycles and two cycles and broke them in according to manufacturers instructions and EVERY SINGLE ONE was/is a great running engine.


No engine manufacturer suggests rich running during break in? Not OS?

You obviously haven't read the manuals--yet you subscribe to that very theory on breaking the engine in.

quote:


I break in engines using the manufacturer's recommendation. They made it and I would think they know how to break one in.


Well, here's a direct quote from the 46AX manual--straight from the OS website.

Install the engine with the propeller intended for
your model. Open the needle-valve to the advised
starting setting and start the engine. If the engine
stops when the glow plug battery disconnected,
open the needle-valve to the point where the engine
does not stop.Run the engine for one minute
with the throttle fully open, but with the needlevalve
adjusted for rich, slow !QUOT!four-cycle!QUOT!operation.

Thats an ABC engine, and the manual specifically tells you to run it !QUOT!four-cycle!QUOT! rich for 1 minute upon initial start-up. Are you sure your reading the manuals?

Now, here's a direct quote for the 120AX, a ringed engine:

Install the engine with the propeller intended
for your model. Open the needle-valve to the
advised starting setting and start the engine.
If the engine stops when the glow plug
battery is disconnected, open the needlevalve
to the point where the engine does not
stop.Run the engine for one minute with the
throttle fully open, but with the needle-valve
adjusted for rich, slow !QUOT!four-cycle!QUOT!operation.

Same thing. Run it 4-stroke rich for a minute.

I don't care what the manual says. I trust guys like W. Robbinson, FBD, and W8YE more than I trust a corporate giant looking to cover their butts on warranty.

Here's a direct quote from a ST engine manual:

The engine should be running at full throttle, but running somewhat
rough, with a lot of fuel/oil being discharged from the muffler. This is
because the engine is running in a very rich condition–that is, more than
enough fuel is running through the engine than is needed. Run the
engine at this setting for at least five minutes.

Sounds like 4-stroking rich to me.

So, lets wrap this up:
I pointed out that the practice of manufacturers telling us to break our engines in excessively rich is simply to cover their own butt against warranty claims. It is not necessary to run an excessively engine rich, and in fact it can hurt the engines long term performance.

You countered my statement by claiming that you know of no engine manufacturer who recommends this overly rich break in.

And I just gave you 3 perfect examples of manufacturers doing just exactly that.

loughbd:
I'm happy that you've had good luck with your engines by running then in according to the manual--although I think you may need to brush up on those procedures, because it appears you've forgotten just exactly how the manufacturers tell us to do the break in.

But, myself, and a lot of guys put considerable effort into educating new hobbyists on the PROPER way to break in a glow engine. When you come into the forums with a combative attitude, and act like we're all stupid for not just doing it according to the manufacturers recommendations, it doesn't help. We want people to have fun, and we want them to break their engines in the right way and have good success with the hobby.

The generally poor attitude in your tone is completely counter-productive to the education process for these newbies. Because, in fact, the manufacturers are NOT giving us the best advice here. If you want to follow the manual--then good. Have fun. But don't post inflammatory remarks that hint at ignorance on the part of the rest of us. It doesn't help the newbie, and your, well, your just wrong.

< Message edited by Rcpilet -- 6/1/2006 4:53:25 AM >

_____________________________

Airplanes have expiration dates. It''s just not printed anywhere on them.
I''m not really an airplane pilot; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

(in reply to loughbd)
       Post #: 11

RE: ringed engine break in? - 6/1/2006 4:36:50 AM   
Cyclic Hardover



Posts: 7253
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: New Mexico, USA
Status: offline 		I believe that "endless breakin's" with gallons of fuel is a waste of time and money. I simply run a couple tank fulls through the engine to get it dial in. Leave it just a tad rich and fly the darn thing. Everybody has their own way. Mine works for me and all my engines run just fine.

Adding fuel to the fire here in that just because and engine has been broken in for 6 months on a test stand and 20 gallons of fuel does not mean it will run any better than mine if a person cannot properly tune it. I fly at a public field and there is a very healthy percentage of pilots who "think" there engine is straight vs those of us whose engines are.

< Message edited by Cyclic Hardover -- 6/1/2006 4:40:50 AM >

_____________________________

Retired Army Aviator - Excuse Me! You sold me a hair with a cake around it!

(in reply to Rcpilot)
       Post #: 12

RE: ringed engine break in? - 6/1/2006 5:35:51 AM   
loughbd


 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/29/2003
From: Bremerton, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Tone?? Hard to tell the tone of something unless you can hear it.

(in reply to Cyclic Hardover)
       Post #: 13

RE: ringed engine break in? - 6/1/2006 5:38:03 AM   
loughbd


 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/29/2003
From: Bremerton, WA, USA
Status: offline 		QUOT?? What does that mean?

I seem to remember that the original question was how do you break in a RINGED engine.

< Message edited by loughbd -- 6/1/2006 5:39:21 AM >

(in reply to loughbd)
       Post #: 14