Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (Full Version)

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badigital -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 7:52:39 AM)

Hey guys,
A partner and myself are building a Ziroli B-25, my partner of course doing most of the building. However I have a dilema, I am really confussed on which motors to use. I am not a big fan of the G-23, however I want to stay gas...... Any ideas or have you all tried something else?.....We are also looking for wheels and brakes that will fit nicely with the Robart retracts as we have them already....Any ideas here?
In building the rudders has anybody eliminated the bellcrank system that Ziroli lines out?....... If so what did you do?......

Anxiously awaiting answers so we can get this bird ing the sky by July (hehehe)




CSpierings -> B25 (1/30/2002 8:18:39 AM)

I've seen a couple fly on G23s and they performed well. I've also seen a 101 inch one with G38s and it was very fast.

Chris




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 8:20:52 AM)

I have a Ziroli B25. I originally built it using a pair of Kalt 22's that I had laying around. They are similar to the G23, but not as powerful. I found that they were inadequate power wise. Bear in mind I live in Southeast Asia, and the humidity levels here usually necessitate a bit more power than you would need. I re-engined with a pair of G38's. The plugs stick out rather a lot and impact the scale appearance of the plane. The engines are effectively overpowered, but that just means lower throttle settings. If I were to do it again I would probably use the Brison 2.4's, better fit and plenty of power. If I lived in a less humid climate I might be tempted to try the RCS 1.4's although I have heard mixed reviews on these.
The bellcrank system on the rudders was certainly sloppy. I ultimately created base mount hatches at the stab fin joint, and used voltz micromaxx servos with the push rod exiting on a very short throw to the rudder. I covered the pushrod with a scale type fairing cover. I was a bit worried about torque with this servo, but it turned out to be fine.
I have about 12 flights on the plane. You need to use rudder and reasonable differential on the ailerons or there is a tendency to skid in turns. Otherwise it flies great. Landings require a bit of practice to make sure you use adequate flaps to slow down while maintaining power to ensure control.
I am using robart metal wheels. They came out with these last year and they are reasonable like and look scale. Glennis makes a scale wheel which is probably a bit heavier, they also have brakes for their wheels. I don't know if the glennis brakes would be compatible with the robart wheels. I am not using brakes. We fly off grass and it tends to slow the plane down after landing. I am able to get an idle low enough that the plane will sit after taxi prior to take off.

Good luck with the project.
Mike




F4u5 -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 9:52:15 AM)

A friend of mine has Q-42 (now US41's) installed, They are nice because the muffler mounts on the back side of the cylinder almost hiding it. You do see a little bit of the head bottow, but this is a trade off for better performance, wiothout a muffler sticking out the side. I have seen them with G-38 also, which also has mufflers on the back of cylinder.




Big_Bird -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 10:06:05 AM)

The one that I built and flew was way overpowered by two G38s. I would recommend the G23s. They are plenty powerful enough and probably have less vibration. With both G38s running, I sure had a lot of vibration in the ailerons. Had to go to metal geared servos.
Ken




badigital -> Another Question (1/30/2002 11:20:37 AM)

Mike,
Thank you for your excellent insight on the issues I have raised. I like your idea of mounting micro servos in the tails to eliminate deadband in the control surface. Could you mount them servos directly into the inboard side of the vertical stabilizer?.... Has anyone tried this?... I have heard alot of pilots talk about the finished weight of their bird?... Any idea where yours has come out at?...
I am seriously thinking about using the RCS1.40, it is a lighter motorand just slightly a bit more power can be achieved with the 1.80, or willl this be too much for that?... We are after a truly scale model here so let me know? We have looked at the Glennis brakes and wheels but are not sure what to do yet, do you like the performance of the Robarts? Our stip is 575' of asphalt any pointers here...should I be worried about the landing approaches?




badigital -> F4 and Big Bird (1/30/2002 11:26:51 AM)

I am thinking that by using such larger motors one would have to compensate by adding tail weight, was this true? I want to keep her as light as I can but, I want authority as well! 2 Q 42's seems like an awful lot of motor for this bird considering that it is recommended to use 23's. I am looking for good motors with low vibration any ideas????




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 11:35:14 AM)

The width of the servo is problematic for a proper mount inside the vertical fin, the fin is too thin. I put the hatch and mount at the base of the fin partly in the stab. Also be careful on the hinge method on the rudders. I changed it from Nick's plan. I used pieces of brass tube in alternate placement between the rudder and vertical stab and then went through with a music wire. Nick's method was too soft. you can get away with a heavier bell crank arrangement with the servo mounted inside the stab. This allows for a larger servo, and if the linkages are short you would be ok. I thought about this after I had done the other arrangement.
Some reinforcement of the nacelles is also desirable. I used a carbon kevlar layup to reinforce inside. There is a lot of potential vibration as well as shock on landing.
I am unsure of the weight on my plane. It has a lot of scale detail so I am sure the weight is up there. With the G38's the plane takes off in about 75 feet at 2/3 throttle. It would lift a lot faster if I really ran the engines up.
Since you are going for scale, give some careful thought to the gear doors in the nacelles. The curvature is heavy. You will have to use large u shaped hinges. Mine are home made. You need a fair amount of offset from the nacelle as the door opens.
flaps can be set up as pseudo fowler using robart hinges. It gives a reasonably scale effect without the headache of making and tweaking a fowler mechanism. Otherwise Wayne Siewart at Aerotech, makes a fowler mechanism for his P47 that can be adapted if he will sell one without the kit. The problem is that you would need 2 per side.
Your strip is more than adequate. I was flying off of 350 of less than pristine grass. A hot landing will take up a fair amount of the strip. landing too slow can cause a tendency towards a wing over. I suggest a few practice approaches and you will see what I mean. The plane is by no means difficult to handle.
Please let me know if you need any other info.
Mike




karben -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/30/2002 5:31:10 PM)

In reply to your letter about the B-25.. I am not blessed with the answers but have 4 close friends each building four huge B25's at the present time.. I would like to direct you to this enclosed web site as they possibly could be of some help to you.... Wingman..

hhttp://www.skunkworks.rcplanet.com




gibb -> B25 (1/30/2002 7:32:37 PM)

I've had my B25 flying for 3-4 years now and It is a *****cat to fly. So much so, in fact, that it rivals a trainer. Now, mine is not tricked out and it only weighs about 30 lbs with G23's.
I will admit that more powerful engines could be more fun for this bird, but it flys very well on the G23's and is a good trade off for the weight. When you use the G38's o(or bigger) you just add weight, vibration, and poorer flying characteristics. What's the benefit here? Maybe just speed. Also, the nacelle is not that large and only has ample room for about a 16oz tank.

This thing is so easy to fly, that I can hold the nose gear off the runway on touchdown for several feet. And I'm not that good of a pilot!
Really take another look at the smaller engines. I think you'll be happier.
I'm including a pic which shows the downling camera that we used a couple of years ago to get some great video. We also mounted is on top of the fuse and aimed it backwards. The video is really a neat addition to the normal library of pictures.

Good luck.
Jim G.
Livonia, MI




badigital -> Great Photo (1/31/2002 12:08:12 AM)

Jim, that is an excellent shot of your bird!
I thank you for your input on the engines! What type of wheels did you use on yours? How did you setup the rudder controls?




gibb -> B25 (1/31/2002 12:51:40 AM)

Thanks, for the compliment. By the way, this is the 101" version and not the 118 ".
The wheeels are just byron 5.25" they are narrow and fit nicely into the nacelle.
I unfortunately built it to the plans and used bellcranks. Although I find this a bit sloppy, it works well and is dependable. I used a giant servo driving the nose gear and the rudders works just fine and has plenty of authority. I use a small amount rudder in making a turn as well. Like most B25's, the tail wants to drag a bit.

Believe it or not, this has been my most dependable plane for the last few years. The robart gear even hold air for several weeks.

Here is another pic taking off with the camera installed.

Jim




badigital -> bellcranks (1/31/2002 1:07:17 AM)

I want to eliminate the bell crank driving the rudders, any ideas?
I see you are flying off of asphalt as well as I will be, are you using any brakes? If not what is your touchdown to roll-out distance? Can someone still get the Byron wheels?

I am looking at a set by Glennis now but man they are $$$!

Lastly, if you were to change your model at all what would you do differently?




Candyman -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/31/2002 1:38:35 AM)

I have started on a 101" B-25 too so I'm interested in these questions. I'm not sure if I will use bellcranks or separate servos but I ususally prefer short pushrods so maybe I'll go with separate servos.
How much weight is typically needed in the nose to balance this model? How long rollout distance?




badigital -> Candyman (1/31/2002 4:23:22 AM)

These are all the same questions I am asking as well. Hopefully what is here will help you too.




Candyman -> Retracts (1/31/2002 6:02:36 AM)

Yeah, I have a bunch of questions but the biggest problem is how I'm going to afford the retracts. And after that engines. I was wondering if a pair of OS 1.20 Surpass III with pumps would be enough? I have one that has been very reliable so far. They are not as strong as a G23 though... Would a pair of OS 1.60 be way overpowered?




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/31/2002 7:21:44 AM)

Badigital
The balance on the plane is surprising easy. The engines are quite near the CG. When I reengined to G38's the balance point changed just a touch. I carry two batteries on board with a backup system. Shifting the batteries has easily allowed for balancing.
As I mentioned earlier in your climate G23's should do the trick. On Candyman's question of OS120's I think they will be underpowered. Those were nice shots of Jim's plane.
Mike




badigital -> CG (1/31/2002 11:01:43 AM)

Hey mselby,
Thank you for all your advice, I have another question, when building the wing has anyone used or eleminated the steel rod that connects the two halves of the flaps together. I am in favor of eliminating that rod and using servos instead for a total of four servos on the flaps, any comments anyone?




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (1/31/2002 12:03:19 PM)

good point. I used separate servos on all the flaps. Just watch out for the mounting position and geometry of the horns and linkages so that you keep the flaps in sync with each other. I originally had ganged flaps on a Ziroli corsair and found it was just too sloppy. I have not used the pin method since.
Cheers
Mike




gibb -> B25 (1/31/2002 7:42:17 PM)

I used the ziroli method for all the control surfaces and they all work surprisingly well, however, here is what Iwould do if I built another.
1) Elevators- I used 2 servos driving each elevator- I would'nt change this.
2) Ailerons- 2 servos again- no problems: ( side note: the ailerons are very small and a standard torque servo will work fine)
3) Throttle- 2 servos mounted on the back of the firewall with short and closely matched linkages. Make sure you don't mount them too tight. Let the grommets absorb the vibration.
4) rudder/steering- I used 1 giant servo driving bothe the rudder and the steering. I would change this to 1 servo for steering and 2 mini's or maybe even the new volz servos mounted in the rudders. The weight of the servos are minimal since if you use the pushrod /bellcrank method you have to add all of the pushrods,etc..
5) retracts- 1 servo
6) flaps- I used 1 servo per ziroli and made the bellcrank linkage method: Although it works OK, I would use separate servos for each flap. The linkage/ bellcrank method hides all the stuff internally, but it is just too much work. The positive thing about individual servos is that since the flap are small, you don't need more than standard torque servos.
7) bomb bay- I used 1 servo driving bellcranks. It works OK, but could use more authority since the air flow under the fuse tends to close the doors. They stay open enough to drop bombs.

The roll out is of course up to the headwind and the landing approach, but I have been able to stop it quite easily on both grass and cement. Grass stops are in the 50 -75 feet and hard surface is around 100-200. You can scrub speed easily with a tricycle gear plane. Brakes are not required at this weight. Maybe at 35 lbs+. I don't use more than about 20-25 degrees of flap for landing. It just does'nt need it at 30 lbs.


Heres my recommendations for the building another:
1) Keep the linkage simple and all the scale amenities
2) When setting the engines, concentrate on the linkage being close first then go to tuning. Set one of the engines idles with the carb throttle stop and then adjust the other via the transmitter. That way you can keep the idle settings close. Believe it or not, the idle is more important than full throttle When coming in to land, you really don't want to fight the yaw from asymetric thrust. I also use 15/8 Graupner 3 blade props. They are not the best for performance, however, they are heavy and help the engine idle very well. I have never had a flame out!
3) Keep it light! Its easy to have great plans to add all the bells and whistles, but remember this (101") is only 1/8 scale.


Jim




badigital -> Changes (1/31/2002 10:17:04 PM)

gibb and mselby,
Guys,
Thanks allot, The information you have shared with me is definitely valuable and it always helps to learn from those that have tried. I will definitely change things as you all have suggested and keep it simple. One more thing, any idea for cockpit kits?




1wolf-RCU -> B-25's (2/1/2002 3:13:12 AM)

Along the lines of extravagant failure I'll bare all here for input from those who know. The 4 b-25's project is not a myth! They have RCS 1.8's (we fly off grass and didnt want to skimp on power)With servo's on each flap and submicro's in the tail (40 oz torque). We are using Gene Barton retracts (again this is for the grass Gene makes a well built retract). Each servo channel with a length over 18 inches and more than one servo is getting a y amplifier and the receiver is getting a redundant battery backup. The nacelles and nose are getting heavy glass cloth (5 ounce) while anything aft of the wing is getting 3/4 everything else gets 1.5 Due to the placement of the gear doors they are not seen much (the scales doors close once the retract is down so you don't see them while it's on the ground) so we are not putting the nacelle doors on. We have kept the opening as small as possible and it is barely visible with the plane on it's wheels. We did however go with the bomb bay doors (radio access) and the rotating turrent was done as a hatch for rear of the plane accesibility. The fuel fills and battery charge jacks and on and off switches and air fill and gauge are all accessed from a hatch between f4 and f5. while the engine on and offs are in the inboard side of the nacelles. Your welcome down anytime Brian By the way dog Steve all you want but don't dog my building abilities (at least till ya know me better) Glenn [url]www.skunkworks.rcplanet.com[/url]




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (2/1/2002 6:07:53 AM)

Ziroli sells the guns as an accessory. I think dynamic balsa may have a kit for the cockpit. I made the cockpit etc myself, it was a bit time consuming but fun.
Mike




mselby -> Building a Ziroli B-25(CONDENSED VERSION) (2/1/2002 6:33:10 AM)

badigital
thought you might like this.
Mike




1wolf-RCU -> b-25's (2/1/2002 6:59:02 AM)

By the way Gibb and Mselby I also enjoyed your input and that is a good looking B-25. It seems Ziroli has lost it's supplier for the gunsso we have had to improvise. Guys your input on the b-25's is and would be apreciated. Brian i had heard thru the grapevine (yea Steve told me) that yours is glassed and painted got any pics?? If you come up to see Jones again holler. And about the Steve thing I understand:( Between him and Jones it's no wonder your a little sensitive.




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