Sell us more snake oil!! (Full Version)

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Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 5:59:18 AM)

:greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy:

[COLOR=crimson]After having looked at a whole bunch of info on here and on the various manufacturer's websites regarding the fuels we use in model engines, I had a good chuckle.

Upon reading all this info from fuel manufacturers websites, I just had to laugh. I thought to myself, if the "top five" fuel manufacturers were all equally represented in all rc hobby shops across the country, I would simply buy the least expensive jug.

You'd think these companies were manufacturing fuels for the space shuttle program the way they expound upon their "proprietary" ingredients, and ultra high purities, etc. Again, I had to laugh.

Of course they all have to give the impression that they, and only they, have the secret elixir that will keep your engine clean, cool, and running strong for 1,000 years or more!

Just imagine what a nightmare it would be if we had all these fuel "options" to choose from when we went to gas up our cars.
Hmm..let's see, do I want the Super Premium with extra hypnotanium surfactants? Or maybe the mid grade with 5% power booster? Or maybe the 10% power booster on the low grade with engine knock inhibitors and a touch of castor oil? But wait, this is a sports car, I have to look at the performance fuels 20 pumps down. AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

As John Stossell from 20/20 steps in and says, "Give me a break!"

All the model fuel manufacturers claim their raw materials are better than the competition. You'd think they were making liquids for use in the medical field for crying out loud.

Last time I checked these were model airplanes. The last time I checked this was a hobby. The last time I checked, most of us were not out flying $8000 jets.

Some fuel manufacturers claim extensive "testing" on real live model engines. No data of course is provided regarding these tests. We are just left to wonder and fear what will happen to our $50 engine if we don't use their fuel. Then again, for all we know, a simple home brew mix would result in essentially the same results of a long running, reliable engine.

Such is the dog eat dog world of "our product is better than your product," model fuel manufacturing.

Sure sounds a lot like snake oil marketing tactics if you ask me.

Maybe I should go into fuel manufacturing. Come up with a product that is essentially like all the other products out there, but hype it with an exciting and over the top marketing campaign so that modelers everywhere will be scrambling for my "Super Duper Snake Oil Fuel." I can specialize with a different type of fuel for every single engine size and make. The most extensive line of snake oil fuel known to mankind!! Oh, and hey, what about different types based on which coast you live on? Or maybe different fuels for the expected high temperature of the day?? Oh yes, the product line is growing as I sit and ponder the greenback dollar and gullible retail consumers!![/COLOR]

Stay tuned...

lol :D



jerrysu29 -> Snake Oil (12/26/2002 6:24:19 AM)

Sounds like you have listened to too many snake oil salesman and not enough to the RC fliers that know what to buy and what runs the best in the engines they have. You want to buy the cheapest fuel you can go for it. You live in a free country. Choose a fuel you like and use it , and qiut listening to all the snake oil salesman, its as easy as that!!



CITYPICKLE -> Snake Oil (12/26/2002 6:39:00 AM)

Better yet which is your favorite color? I like the one that resembles Windex! What is with the color and what is your favorite? :spinnyeye



OnTheEdge -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 6:42:02 AM)

About my second year of flying, there was a guy in our club who use to make his own fuel. Claimed it was better than the major brand names and his only cost 9 bucks a gallon, at the time when a gallon of Byron 10% with 16% snake oil.....uh.....I mean Castor oil sold for I believe $12. This gentlemen was at the field quite often (every evening and every Saturday morning). He used to constantly experiment with props and fuels on a test stand so being fairly new, we thought this guy knew what he was talking about. His conversations were quite filed with details of RPM numbers and the such. Well my friend an I both bought a gallon and our engines wouldn't run for anything with the stuff. We fiddled with the carbs, needles, glo plugs, muffler pressure etc, and to no avail. From that point on, I just buy a premium fuel and stick with it. I've been in this hobby for over 12 wonderful years now and have met hundreds of modelers and with the exception of that gentlemen (who by the way I never saw him fly a plane.....only test stands clamped to our picnic tables) I don't know of anyone who makes their own fuel. Not that it can't be done or that it can't be done with the same results as the off the self stuff, but none the less, no too many modelers actually do it. My point is, if it can be done and done for less cost, then a bunch of guys would be doing it.

One other thing to keep in mind, is that engines run differently with different fuels. That's a fact of life. If every gallon of fuel you buy is a different brand/type because that's the "Dollar off" special of the week, then you might end up spending more time tinkering on the ground then flying in the air.

Oh....one more marketing idea you forgot is a special blend for those that fly at high altitude.

Best of luck with your new business! :D

...............Mark



jerrysu29 -> Re: Snake Oil (12/26/2002 6:58:21 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CITYPICKLE
Better yet which is your favorite color? I like the one that resembles Windex! What is with the color and what is your favorite? :spinnyeye [/QUOTE] Every Manufacturer uses a diff color of dye in their fuels Just More Snake oil



Hossfly -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 8:24:19 AM)

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sell us more snake oil!! (post # 1)



After having looked at a whole bunch of info on here and on the various manufacturer's websites regarding the fuels we use in model engines, I have come to one irrefutable conclusion.

They are all out to make a profit and to take as much market share from the competition as possible.

No big suprise there. It's the corporate way of life.

<<<<<<<<<<<<

No real argument from here, however I used a number of fuels after I started RC back about '71. Prior to that I used Fox Fuels for my CL/FF flying and had no problems.
In '71-76 I used my own fuel, made for my HS by first SIG then Nitrotane, and made to my formula under my Aero Sports name. It was just fine.

Then I used several brands until I moved back to the REPUBLIC. Again I used both local and imported (into TX) fuels. Never quite satisfied. Main use was a couple Texas brands which never really satisfied me with totally reliable engine operation. Then some 4+ years ago, while driving back from the UP in MI, I stopped at old friend Don Phillips' Venture Hobby in Wheeling, IL. He had this *Wild Cat* stuff and said the locals preferred it big time. Being unsure of the stated low oil content, one at 16% and one at 18%, for TX heat, I just picked up one case.
Well friends, I have no financial interest in Wild Cat fuel, however, I now order each year by a load for an 18 wheeler to deliver to my door. No more problems with steady reliable engine runs when either 40* and dry or 100* and 100% humidity.

So to devil with hype or snake-oil, I don't care as long as operational stability is always there. Wild cat fuels are the best ever for me, and I use the Jet 10%, YS 4St 20/20, and 16% oil 5 / 10 / and 15%. No problems.



Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 8:53:21 AM)

Now I think in the interests of consumers, that fuel manufacturers need to do a bit more research.

They need to specify on the bottles, which fuels to use with which brand and size engine and for what part of the world. And hopefully they will include the running characteristics for each temperature and humidity combination too....and altitudes as well. Hmmm....that may be awfully small print...ok..well they can include a reference book by the fuel section then. That should help us all immensely.

And I think Consumer Reports should do a complete test on all available model fuels as well as some home brews. We need the facts...just the facts...and nothing but the facts.

Oh..and all hobby shops should stock bulk raw materials for those do it yourself chemists too.

That is my dream....like a golden propellor spinning silently through the air...because the new and improved fuel makes no noise during combustion. Yea yea, I know the prop will still make noise from the air...but it's my dream darnit!!

:-)

just stirring up the fuel barrel



EASYTIGER -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 9:55:56 AM)

I guess with some engines, it does not matter too much, but with others, it SURE DOES.
I will not run my DF engines, OS and BV, on ANYTHING but Wildcat Jet A fuel. Sorry, but I have tried others, and had real problems. Don't know if there is any particular proprietary ingredient in it, or it is just the mix(I asked...wildcat fuels is not telling,they will not even tell me the oil content!), but it WORKS.
I have used all sorts of fuel in my other engines, from fifty year old (really) Cox and K&B 1000 to Morgan and Cool Power and all the rest, and MOST fuels run well with MOST engines. But not all.
Like Edge, I have bought fuel from a local guy that turned out to be useless. I have bought other homebrew fuel that was fine.
But I have never had a gallon of major brand fuel that was bad. Don't know if it is their proprietary snake oils, or just consistency!
I you really want to save...mix your own. You can save a TON. Or just buy it from one of the big guys in 55 gallon drums. Either way, though, you are committed to using just one type of fuel for quite a while...just make sure that blend runs well in your particualar engines.



Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 6:17:25 PM)

Well this is good info. I wanted to get people commenting and thinking....so this is good. I learned some stuff. Though some folks may not get the point of my ramblings at times, enough do so that we all can think "outside the box" as they like to say.

Keep your comments and experiences with various fuels coming.

Wildcat's website lists the percentage of oil in the various mixes...as do some of the other fuel manufacturer sites.



Tattoo -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 7:22:49 PM)

25 years and I've always run the cheapest bottle (or whatever I win in the raffle:)) For years it was SIG Champion. Then from 98-2000 it was Powermaster. Recently it's Omega. I've always run 10% in the summer and 15% in the winter, and use WD-40 for after-run. Always fly a click or two rich and have fun. When not in use, my engines carb and muffler are ALWAY capped to keep moisture and dust out. When stored they are preserved and put in tupperware. I've got some engines with a LOT of time and years on them and have never retired or rebuilt one due to being worn out. IMHO it's more to do with how they are run and cared for, and less to do with what snake oil you run in them.

One thing that blows me away is how guys can throw a plane up on the shelf in the garage with the carb wide open to the air. By the time they go flying again there is a good visible layer of dust and grime in the carb opening and barrel. They fire the engine up and suck it all down...and then wonder why their 2 year old engine won't make power.



Homebrewer -> Marketing (12/26/2002 8:59:50 PM)

Its all about marketing and product differentiation for products that are basically the same. Let's face it, model airplane fuel (glow fuel) is nothing but methanol, nitromethane and oil. Anybody can make it using Klotz oil products and get a fuel that equals most commercial brands.

Its not rocket science. I wish I understood this whole "consistency" stuff I keep hearing. Many people feel that a fuel is consistent if they don't have to tune their engines between flights. I'm sorry, that only shows that your airpressure/airtemp/humidity etc.. and other factors remain unchanged since your last flight.

Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 99.9% pure methanol versus 99.97% methanol? I don't think so. You lost that consistency the minute you open that bottle in a semi-humid environment.

Here's some favorite lines that I hear and read online:

"My engine runs faster on brand X instead of brand Y." (Probably true since brand X may have less oil than brand Y.)

"With this fuel, I only have to tune my engine once a season, the fuel is more consistent" (sorry but you just don't understand simple engine theory and carburetion)

" I won't buy that fuel anymore since they don't list the oil content on the bottle" (call the fuel maker, they will tell you the oil content of the fuel that has worked for others for years without any problem)

"We don't pay our pilots to fly our fuel" (really, do you provide them fuel at no or lost cost?)

"We are the number 1 product of fuel in USA and abroad" (how many #1's can there really be?)

"We use only the finest materials....virgin methanol". (is there an extra virgin methanol, like olive oil?)

"We have so much confidence in our proprietary oil blend, we use it in our lawnmower and our weedwacker?"

___________________________________________________

So, here's how you can make/HOMEBREW/the best fuel which is purer than any commercial brand out there!


BUY YOUR 99.98 PURE METHANOL FROM https://www.worldwideracingfuels.com/prod_fuel.htm#methanol

THIS METHANOL BEATS WILDCAT FUELS 99.9% PURITY AND MORGAN FUEL'S 99.97% PURITY

BUY YOUR 99.95% pure nitromethane also from [url]www.worldwideracing[/url] fuels.com
This nitro is equal in purity to Wildcat. However, you probably can get away with using 99.7% pure nitromethan that appears to be good enough for NHRA top fuel and funny car drivers.

KLOTZ TECHNIPLATE 80/20 SYN/CASTOR MIX AND ADD BY VOLUME OR WEIGHT TO OBTAIN DESIRED OIL CONTENT.

PS Does anybody know if snake oil is an acceptable substitute for castor?



Cleared4Crash -> zoom zoom (12/26/2002 10:23:24 PM)

Ahh yes...good points....good points people....keep them coming....go team go! go team go!

I see Tattoo is liking the cheapo stuff too. :)

I remember reading a long time ago, probably in RCM, about some guy who always stored his engines submerged in a bath of transmission fluid. Seems reasonable to me, though a bit messy when you want to take one out and use it. Might be better for longer term storage.

Yes, I remember my college days in marketing class. It was quite enlightening. That's the trouble with selling essentially the same product with little difference from one brand to the next, you have to rely on snake charming to get and keep customers.

The homebrewing thing I can relate to. I'm not sure most people want to mess around with it...not to mention storing bulk chemicals around the household. It seems logical that one can get a very similar mix by doing it that way. Of course, you will be lacking the "top secret additives" and that may cause your engine to turn into a puddle of molten metal. Ohh..there is that marketing thing again.."fear"...one of the great marketing motivators. That college class done me good! :p

I know that people are having good and bad experiences with manufactured fuels. Is it the fuel? Is it the weather? Is it the engine design? Well that's just really hard to say. If you found something you like and it works, great! If you make your own and save a few bucks...great! If you always buy the cheap stuff..great! If you always buy the expensive stuff and add even more oil to it...great! If it works for you and you are happy, then that's what matters.

Many of my posts are meant to be more "thought provokers" than anything else. It's good to get a wide range of opinions and ideas and then each of us boil it down to what works for us individually.

Keep em coming guys....I KNOW there are at least five more of you just itching to share your deep dark fuel thoughts. Don't be afraid. Stand up and be ignited!!...er...I mean counted. :p



Hossfly -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 10:38:23 PM)

Homebrewer:

You seem to have a problem with the mention of Wilcat fuels and imply that no one knows how to set a needle.
Lots of what you say is true, and since you obviously make your own fuels, you probably don't have to worry about what a lot of users of local *homebrews* or small suppliers and sometimes big suppliers allow to happen within their mixing functions.
That problem is allowing the methanol access to higher humidity conditions for extended periods of time. The absorption of water into the fuel base certainly can adversely effect the fuel from batch to batch.
When I sold AeroSports fuel through my HS, I was very certain that the fuel drums were opened in a dry cool temp. room and immediately transferred to metal cans, which were promptly sealed. No drum was ever opened and then not emptied. At least after the first several drums!!!
This is not always done within the small suppliers, and while one batch of fuel runs steady and well, the next batch one purchases may very well be difficult to get a good idle, needle consistently, and/or perform satisfactorily.
Wildcat has consistently out performed all other RC fuels I ever used, especially in the batch to batch department.

While I now have the facilities to mix my own, I prefer the ready-to-burn just like many fliers prefer the ARF models. If You were around my area, I might prefer yours.

Good luck.



Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/26/2002 11:12:04 PM)

Good point....indeed methanol is ...how do they say?....hygroscopic?? Kind of similar to some brake fluids and their affinity for moisture I guess.

As soon as it's exposed, it's sucking moisture from the air into the mix. So unless you have some sort of special drum or something that will float on top of the methanol while the level drops, so that the air interface is minimized, water is going to get in there. So I can definitely see where that would affect the performance of a batch.

good point to remember



G.MasterFlash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/27/2002 12:11:58 AM)

Don't forget wildcats claim that you will get cancer if you use any other fuel but wildcat. Jerry most definitely has a Doctorate in the BS department along with a masters degree in snake oil sales. Reasons why I will never buy his stuff.



Cleared4Crash -> Sound Familiar?? (12/27/2002 1:08:05 AM)

[COLOR=blue]I think in marketing class, this was known as how to appear to say something important, while actually saying little or nothing.

These advertising tidbits may sound familiar to you. [/COLOR]


[FONT=times new roman][COLOR=firebrick]won many titles at National events

better viscosity index

incredible protection and lightning speed

Lesser oils would have failed

strictest of tolerances

better lubricity

maximum freshness

ultimate in power, performance, and protection

superior to others in all respects

highest quality methanol, nitro, and special ingredients

purest virgin materials tested to exacting specifications

best manufacturing equipment available

secret formulas

better film strength

best commercially available spec

front of synthetic oil technology

winner’s choice

give top performance

pure virgin methanol

highest grade

finest available lubricants

complete protection

finest grade of virgin methanol

highest quality components

run cleaner and longer

highest grade in the World

benchmark for the industry

best methanol and Nitro

exceeds the industry standard[/COLOR] [/FONT]



Cleared4Crash -> More Info on Fuels (12/27/2002 1:21:32 AM)

[COLOR=darkred]I looked about and came across some sites with interesting fuel info. Take it as you will. I make no claims regarding the accuracy of the information.[/COLOR]


[URL=http://www.home.zonnet.nl/realrolfje/fuel/]About R/C Fuel[/URL]

[URL=http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/300_9.asp]AMA newsletter - Basic Homemade Fuel[/URL]

[URL=http://www.ilmailuliitto.fi/lennokki/fftf/lennokem.htm]Chemical Risks in Model Building[/URL]

[URL=http://www.supertigre.com/faq/faq-q663.html]Supertigre Fuel FAQs[/URL]


[COLOR=blue]Oh...and this is the MOST INCREDIBLE and AMAZINGLY typset post ever to hit the internet! It's sure to ROCK THE WORLD of model aviation!![/COLOR] :surprised



Perminator-RCU -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/27/2002 5:00:56 PM)

Just use regular FAI fuel. No nitro so it's dirtcheap. Only castor oil so you always get consistent quality. The castor oil is also very friendly to the engines.



Tattoo -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/27/2002 6:02:46 PM)

quote:

These advertising tidbits may sound familiar to you.


Not fuel related, but advertising related. One of my favorites is the way a certian company uses the phrase "New Space Age Polymer technology" to describe common everyday sign board known to R/C'ers as Coroplast.



P-51B -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/27/2002 6:26:42 PM)

Come on guys, let's face it, different engines do run differently on different fuels.

As for the openening post referencing different fuel choices for our vehicles, yes there is a difference. You don't see a formula I race car winning the Indy 500 on 85 octane gas pump fuel! Yes different engines prefer different ratios and fuels for optimum power output and performance. The reason it makes little difference at the gas pump is that auto engines are tuned to be "user friendly". Kind of like and OS FP or OS LA, user friendly, will last a while, but I sure won't buy one cause I like peak power!

Never heard the cancer claims from Wildcat, I was one of his first customers and faithfully use either his fuel or powermaster, I have noticed a difference.

I like snake oil, sometimes alternative medicince will prevent needing major "western medicine" surgery!



Homebrewer -> Flawed Analogy (12/27/2002 8:02:34 PM)

Sorry, but I've gotta comment about the previous post.

Trying to make the analytical leap in the comparison of octane levels in gasoline fuels as proof that model airplane fuels perform differently is flawed logic (comparing apples to oranges).

Race cars use high octane fuels because their engines are high compression engines that require high antiknocking properties in a fuel. The high compression design of the race engine allows the engine to develop more horsepower per cubic inch/cc of engine displacement. Naturally, using a low octane fuel in an engine designed for high octane will result in not just poor performance, but engine damage from detonation, ping, pre-ignition, or knock.

I don't know how this relates to the discussion of model airplane fuel but it is a common misperception that high octane fuels (by themselves) in automobiles, improve performance. (hogwash, http://www.techweasel.com/articles/octane.htm ,
http://www.startribune.com/stories/435/1622112.html)

Now, back to model airplane fuels:

Most RC engines are designed to run on a mixture consisting of methanol, nitromethane, and a lubricant.

The fuel's total oil lubricant percentage and its qualities is what probably accounts for most noticeable fuel differences.

We are really kidding ourselves if we think that there are significant differences between brands. Blend viscosities and oil percentages probably accounts for most of the differences between fuels.

Are there fuels that perform better? Yes, Sig 50/50 fuel is very thick and contains 20% oil. Omega or Wildcat or any other brand that contains lower percentages of castor and 17-18% oil will have the advantage of a smoother transition and a better top end. However, many people fly SIG 50/50 syn/castor mix because of the knowledge of having that extra overlean engine protection (I don't).

I can brew you a fuel that will make your engine run better than ANY fuel's regular airplane mix. Simple formula, 15% nitro, 12% oil (50 castor/50 synthetic). Your engine will run incredible fast, have one of the smoothest idles and the snappiest transition out there! However, the engine may only last 2-3 gallons.

I've got nothing against any particular brand, except one that mixed by weight instead of volume, and buy what is cheapest and available in a particular area.



Heavybird -> OBSERVATIONS (12/28/2002 8:38:07 AM)

WOW. . . .

I am still reeeling fron the second line in the origonal post in this thread

"I have come to one irrefutable conclusion.
They are all out to make a profit and to take as much market share from the competition as possible. "

Oh my gosh say it isn't so, an American company out to make a profit? As if America was built as a free society based on Capitolism - Right?

Man are you a Communist? Just Kidding. I realise it is politically incorrect to try and make a profit these days but I don't see that fuel manufacturers are doing anything different that the rest of the companies in this country. They are selling their product in an increasingly competitive market.

As far as the merit of what was said. . . if you truely find no difference in any fuel then no one here will change you mind but you are truely in a minority. . OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/28/2002 9:28:57 AM)

so that we may stick to the subject at hand...I have edited out the carbon buildup from a few of my posts



Heavybird -> OBVIOUSLY? (12/29/2002 9:54:57 AM)

C4C,

Nope. . as obvious as you believe it is, I do in fact get it (the jist in your post). However I don't think you got the point of MINE, why don'y YOU go back and read the posts and see if YOU can get it! But Hey, after all you were asking for responses so that was mine.

Check to the mouth piece



Cleared4Crash -> Sell us more snake oil!! (12/30/2002 12:55:41 AM)

edited out by C4C



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