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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/14/2007 8:42 AM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		Thank you Tom, you're always very supporting!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/15/2007 5:19 PM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		I didn't tell you but I'm double-posting this thread: here on RCU and on RCScalebuilder. The reason is that the 2 audiences are somehow 'separated' and they need to be reached 'individually'.

I consider this my 'main' thread but from a certain moment on (stabilizer work) I started to literally post the same message onto the 2 forums (just to keep things easier to deal with).

I told you that because I got an interesting question about using CAD programs. I thought I could add my reply in here as well as it unveils the 'fine art of compromise' in model designing .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just wanted to add a note that better explains what I meant when I was talking about keeping a design simple.



Here is my float as it appears on my plans: you see the 1.5mm ply skeleton pieces and the SIDE (lower part).

I pre-figured that the side outline was not correct but I elected to work it 'by hand' in the real world rather than taking the troubles to figure out 'by CAD' what its correct outline was.

Its correct outline may be seen in the following picture (green line is OK, red line is per plans):



Figuring it out 'by CAD' means you actually have to give the entire float its shape in 3D (a not-so-easy task involving advanced tools) and then get the infos you want by intersecting and projecting surface onto the planes of interest... well, it can be done but it is not worth it.

It is better to design the SIDE the way I did and put a NOTE on the plans telling the modeler to shape the side itself following the splash rail contour. Easier done than said.

Why didn't I correct the plans then? Because it is not easy to get the infos from the physical piece. I may end up with uncorrect figures that may compromise the shaping (by giving false guidelines).

Thus it is still easier for the modeler to do it on its own...

Was I clear enough?

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/16/2007 5:57 PM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		OK, I consider my finishing work on the float plugs done.

I left you with each plug half joined to its frame and filled; it was then time to sand it:



An important note: you see I filled and primed each half PRIOR to join it to the frame and that's what I truly suggest! The reason is simple: once the plug is joined to its frame it will be really difficult to sand some tight areas!!!

The plug should be really finished on its own before being joined to its frame.

Another point: you see I filled the joint between the plug and the frame. Do not use too much filler or you won't be able to sand it away from those tight sposts again!

Mold-making is time-consuming: plan in advance and don't forget that every future step may ruin what you previously did !

The following is the only funny part of the story: many primer coats!



I used MDF to support the plug because @ 3/4" it keeps flat and it has a surface finish that doesn't require any additional finishing. On the other hand the edges are POROUS because of the cuts! they need to be sealed with 2 coats of sanding sealer.

It's time for the base color: choose a dark color you are 'confindent' with. I mean you should be really 'good' at spray-painting it and you should know everything about it 'by first hand experience': this is not the time to test that *new* brand of colors you know ...

You should know well:
- best thinning
- covering properties (how many coats and how heavy/light each)
- how gloss will it be
- at what temp will it set
- how much time will it need to be sandable
- how much it is sandable

I gave the plugs 3 heavy coats with wet 800-grit sanding in between:



Final result should be glossy at your best. Before dealing with polishing and parting preparation leave it alone for a week or so depending on the solvent.



I ordered today the items I need to make the molds. I think they'll be here in a week or so... just in time for the plugs to properly set.

Enough said, have a nice week-end!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/20/2007 6:07 PM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		I'm waiting for my molding 'goods' to be delivered so I decided to move on with the build: let's get back to the

Fin & Rudder

I took my time to cut the ribs and the spars and I also wasted some time and wood to see if I could make a 'cradle' as I previously did for the stab: I was concerned about the more complex surface but it turned out feasible.



The most annoying part of the building consisted in making the angled notches both on the spars and on the ribs: that's the only way to make things fit...



Once I was done with that it began the easy and enjoyable task of putting everything together: as you can see the sub-assembly between ribs 4 & 5 is put together prior to slide the ribs in place.





The ribs are notched so the lite-ply members snap into position: I didn't use any glue until all the ribs were in place.

BTW, this is what actually holds the aluminum sleeve tubes for the stab halves (smaller holes, the bigger ones are lightening holes).

< Message edited by g_boxwood -- 11/20/2007 6:14 PM >

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/20/2007 6:15 PM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		Once done with the ribs glueing I beveled their front ends to accept the sub-LE:



I also added a square stringer to the rudder portion: the stringer tapers toward the tip (which is thin) so a little spanwise sanding is required (noticed I masked the ribs to prevent sanding them as well):



Here it is after the first rough trimming:



You see I filled the volume between ribs 4 & 5 with a balsa block for additional support to the sleeves.

I also got the sheeting together so tomorrow I'll be able to sheet one side of the fin and I'll check if the cradle helps with it.

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/23/2007 2:53 PM   
g_boxwood



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Status: offline 		I'm sorry this won't be that much of an updated but I've been slowed down in the past few days...

Basically I prepared my 2 one-piece sheeting panels by joining 4 sheets together each; I really like to sheet in one piece, it surely helps with the finishing but it requires an overnight glue joint (I use aliphatic for the purpose); the pic shows the panel that only needs to be trimmed roughly to size:



Since I was waiting I also decided to make functional trim/boost tabs on the rudder: I added some support blocks where the cuts will be made.



I then applied the first sheeting panel with Gorilla Glue: I'm so stupid I made the wrong side of the cradle so I couldn't use it this round... too much CAD leads to too less thinking sometimes...





Anyway I'll be using the cradle for the other sheeting job... not too much is wasted in the end.

Good news is I got my molding supplies... stay tuned!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/27/2007 5:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		It was an intense week-end... I made the molds and I'll document it step-by-step but I'll need some more time to organize my material.

In the meantime here are just a few pics of the sheeted (one side only) and trimmed rudder, I then put it aside for a while to deal with the molds.





I traced all the lines that will guide the cut for both the rudder and the trim tabs:



It appears clear how big the rudder portion is!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/27/2007 6:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		Tip Float Mold-Making

Generally speaking mold-making deals with a sequence of known operations:

0. Plug finishing
1. Plug polishing
2. Plug waxing
3. Release agent (PVA)
4. Composites mold lay-up
5. De-moulding

Even if much of the work and materials belong to step .4 it is the precise and lovingly care exercised during .0 to .3 that leads to a satisying result!

The items needed to complete steps .0 to .3 are pictured below:



Polish (up left), PVA liquid release agent (up right) and Partall pasty parting wax, plus cloths and 'special' brushes for the PVA.

0. Plug Finishing
It may happen that some dust particles collect in your final coat of paint: it happens often as I paint in the outside so it could happen to anyone else as well.

Do not panic but do not leave any surface defect that will mirror into the molds and then into the finished piece! The finished product should need little or no sanding & filling at all! This is why we invested time and patience and money in a good quality plug finish!

Inspect the plug surfaces carefully and find all the little defects: sand them down using 1200-grit WET sandpaper. Limit the sanding to those 'affected' areas as the scratches the 1200-grit leaves will fight with the overall glossy finish you gained with the painting.

Anyway do not dispear: the polish will clear those scratches later on...

1. Plug Polishing
Get a good quality polishing compound from your local automotive store or from your paint supplier. Usually it is a one-part viscous liquid that you rub onto surfaces with a soft cotton cloth. Apply the compound with a swirling motion and apply it with a generous pressure: insist on those areas you previously 'scratched' with the 1200-grit sandpaper until they shine as much as the rest of the plug.

The polishing will bring your already glossy piece to a mirror-like object! it amazes me everytime...

Consider the job done when you're satisfied with the overall appearence and remove any trace of the compound that got stuck in the recesses. The following pic doesn't do justice to the 'look' of the plug:



2. Plug Waxing
I hate waxes. I lost 2 days (Saturday and Sunday) trying to apply 2 types of parting waxes I own so that they didn't SMEAR the finish of MY plug!

I didn't succed! I'll deal with my problems in a dedicated thread in the Composites sections of RCU but for the moment I tell you what I did: I skipped the waxing step! yes, I did it without hesitation and I can confirm you that I was able to pull the molds apart from the plug with no hassle at all.

I still think parting waxes ARE necessary but I must figure out a few things before thrusting them again (faults by my side BTW).

3. Release Agent
The liquid release agent, the PVA, is what really makes the difference between leaving the molds stuck to the plug or not.

It is a water-soluble liquid that you simply brush onto the parting surfaces: the above pictured brush (Moltopren sponge) should avoid 2 bad tendecies of the PVA coat: a lot of tiny air bubbles trapped in and the typical striping left by common brushes.

Even if the PVA is water-soluble it requires a night to dry. If you aren't in a hurry I suggest you apply 2 coats, I went with one only.

Please remember that the PVA collects every possible dust particles in the air so brush it on in a 'clean' enviroment...

Here is a pic of the 2 plugs drying (darker areas are dried):



Tomorrow I'll deal with the mold lay-up and with the easier-than-ever de-moulding.

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 11:08 AM   
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Status: offline 		4. Composites Mold Lay-up

Here is the list of the materials required for the process:

1. Laminating resin of the brand you prefer (I ended up mixing 1.5 lbs in 4 batches)
2. Fiberglass cloth in the 6 to 7 oz./sq.yd. range
3. black coloured pigment compatible with the resin system you use
4. microballoons
5. core material, LANTOR Coremat XM (2mm thickness) HIGLY reccomended
6. disposable items such as latex gloves, mixing sticks and plastic dishes, brushes...

I usually plan in advance all the operations and the required materials for each step. I also keep a log on the resin batches mixed and times.

1a. - 'Amateur' Gel-Coat Layer = 1st epoxy batch
The very first step deals with mixing a sort of a homemade gel-coat:

- use the black pigment and mix it into the first batch of resin(*)



- add some microballoons until you get a thicker liquid than the resin alone BUT not too thick(**)



- paint the mixture in a thin layer on all the edges and corners of the plug (keep the layer thin as it will be easier to avoid trapping air bubbles in it)



- paint it on the complete plug surface (again keep the layer thin!)



Notes:
(*) Pigments may cointain an epoxy binder (pastes) or not (liquids or powders): if they contain the binder as mine did they must be mixed accordingly!

i.e. my color paste is mixed up to 10% weight: if resin to hardener ratio is 50:10 without the pigment it should be (45+5):10 WITH the pigment, where 5 is 10% of 50 since they both are resins.

(**) The ideal thickness is such that the thickened mixture won't run down vertical surfaces; the thicker it is the higher odds are you'll get air bubbles in it and the harder it will be to reach all the recessed edges of the corners.

< Message edited by g_boxwood -- 11/28/2007 12:35 PM >

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 11:27 AM   
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Status: offline 		1b. - Filleting the corners = still 1st resin batch

Just add some more microballons to the black-pigmented resin batch t increase its thickness to a point it will stay ehr you put it:



Apply this mixtures to all the corners in order to increase their radius: that is very important for the following cloth lay-up as the cloth itself doesn't conform to tight corners very well.

I didn't mix enough microballoons into the resin: you can see the result, the mixture is 'flowing' away from where it belongs... avoid doing that!



After you're done with it leave the layer alone for a 'certain' time: it should gelify or get to that 'tacky' state before the next step.

How to determine if the elapsed time is enough? Start checking the curing after 30': press a finger into the layer and see if some residues stay onto your skin/glove. If they do wait another 15' and repeat the 'test'. If you only leave your fingerprint into the layer with no residues on your skin/glove, then it is 'tacky'.

It took me about 2 hours to get to this stage so it really depends on your resin system and on the temperature (it was hot in my workshop BTW).

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 11:40 AM   
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Status: offline 		2. Cloth Lay-Up = 2nd epoxy batch

Plan in advance how you'll cover the entire plug with the cloth: in case of a complex shape as this one it is better to cut stripes of cloth between 2 and 3'' wide.

Mix a new 'pure' batch of resin and paint it onto the gel-coat layer: NONE of it (the gel-coat layer) should be 'affected' by the new epoxy batch!!! in case it happens wait more time as you risk to remove the gel-coat layer or to thin it to a useless thickness!!!

Start laying down the cloth stripes: I started with the vertical striping...





... and I then continued with the horizontal ones...





... until I got 2 full layers:



Please note that the 'tacky' state of the gel-coat layer 'locks' the cloth in place and it will be not easy to move it around... plan its positioning carefully. You can still peel it off and re-do it without too much concern.

Once done, let this layer get 'tacky' before proceeding.

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 11:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		3. - Coremat Layer = 3rd epoxy batch

The LANTOR Coremat is a core material that builds up thickness in a quick and cheap way. Its thickness depends onto the curves it should conform to, I chose 2mm for this project and I found it a good compromise.

Why a core material? The core material is what really makes the difference in a mold: the core material increases the thickness thus the stiffness of the entire mold. The consequence is a greatly improved de-moulding experience.

I can assure you about it by first hand experience as I was used to make flexible or non-stiff f/g molds in the past and they were a real PIA to separate from the plugs.

If you insert a wedge to separate the mold and the mold itself is stiff it will deform (flex) a little thus popping the entire piece apart from the plug.

Enough, the Coremat absorb a huge amount of resin so mix the 3rd batch accordingly. I opted for 2 flat layers of Coremat and a single layer around the float.

The first layer in (you see it is white = no resin yet):



The single layer 'around' the float (the flat layer turns yellowish when soaked...):



The second flat layer helps to seal everything down:



Leave this layer until it gets 'tacky' again.

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 12:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		4. - Final f/g layers = 4th epoxy batch

Seal the Coremat with 2 f/g layers: leave the cloth in one-piece, it should conform easily now.



Let it cure overnight.

5. De-moulding

Roughly trim the excess cloth around the perimeter of the plugs and collect all the de-moulding weapons you have!

I suggest a few PP wedges and a compressed-air wedge just in case things get really hard...



Separate the mold from the plug 'by hand' at a corner then insert the wedges working them around a little at the time:



The mold should pop out easily...



... and the PVA film should be stuck with it: you can both peel it away (in case it is thick enough = 2 layers) or wash it away with water.

Trim the mold and mount it onto a frame.

Skipping the parting wax treatment brought some paint chipping here and there on the plugs and this is why I need to dial-in the waxing procedure before my next molding.



I'm over for the moment, I hope it was useful and as always feel free to ask and contribute with your experiences!

< Message edited by g_boxwood -- 11/28/2007 12:31 PM >

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/28/2007 4:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		Giacomo, I am going to try to figure out a way to capture this entire thread onto a DVD. The info is just too valuable to let it maybe slip away! I wish you lived locally to me so I could have you as a teacher!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/29/2007 7:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thank you Tom!

It was an intense job and I took a little pause since. The lay-up started @ 9:40 am and finished @ 5:08 pm considering the intervals required for the epoxy to gelify...

I'll trim and frame the molds tomorrow.

If you need any other detail feel free to ask.

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 11/30/2007 5:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		I posted about the parting wax issues I had, feel free to check and help!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6695063/anchors_6695063/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6695063

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/3/2007 5:43 PM   
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Status: offline 		Here I am again.

I put the molds aside for a while (I'm waiting again for other supplies) and I got back working onto the fin.

I basically got the fin+rudder ready for sheeting; here you can see where I placed the rudder servo (Hitec HS-85MG):



There's plenty of room inside the fin due to the deep profile so a standard-size HS-425BB may also be used; only at this point I realized I could go with an 'internal' linkage... I'll see if I can deal with it:



The servo is inserted through the large opening in rib R1: the access is easy and it doesn't require any dedicated access hatch:



I also trial-fitted the stab halves together with the fin:



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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/3/2007 5:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		I then trial-fitted the entire tail group together with the fuselage to get the very first impression about how big the 'finished' thing would be:









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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/3/2007 5:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		I finally checked the alignement and epoxied the aluminum sleeve tubes to the rudder:





It was then time to sheet the fin putting my beloved cradle to the test:



That's all folks!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/5/2007 11:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		Giacomo,

I'm silently following your thread, that 's very interesting That fuse looks damn good

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/8/2007 1:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thank you Strykaas!!!

Let's get updated: after sheeting the fin+rudder I added the LE and the tip balsa blocks...



... and I cut the rudder portion free from the fin:



It was then a matter of trimming the rough edges left by the cut and adding new blocks and sheets...







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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/8/2007 1:35 PM   
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Status: offline 		The spacer sheet was then added to the rudder...



... next the the yellow nyrod was tack-glued in place and the LE block got shaped before epoxying it:





The fin got some attention too: the base was 'sealed' with thin ply...



... and the TE got its concave shape:



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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/8/2007 1:44 PM   
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Status: offline 		I then messed around a bit trying to find the correct location of the gudgeons slots into the rudder: it was more a trial-and-error process rather than a scientific matter!!!





I worked a bit to get the amount of travel I wanted and I then fiberglassed with 3/4 oz. both surfaces; here's how they looked this morning after I trimmed the excess cloth (the gudgeons are still 'oversize' and they'll be trimmed after permanent installation):



Here's a close-up of the gap between the moving surface LE and the fixed portion lip: I love this setup, it is both scale and functional!



Have a nice week-end!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/8/2007 4:44 PM   
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Status: offline 		Giacomo: Your assemblies always look so perfect, and your work table always looks so celan. Lets see a couple pictures of the mess you make while you are carving and sanding these assemblies to perfection!

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RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 - 12/14/2007 4:10 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey Tom I thought we were friends !

You know how offensive it is to tell a buddy how clean and tidy his workshop is!

I took some pictures of my ship-wreck-workshop as it was today, in the order:

@ my left, behind @ 3/4th, @ my right

Attachments
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Seaplanes >> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215
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