RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (Full Version)

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grinder-RCU -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 8:02:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kmot

I was going to ask what the top cylinder does. Then Strykass claimed it helps lock the gear. I still don't understand. How does the top cylinder lock the gear? I can't see any movement in the CAD video. [sm=confused.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif]


The CL-215 landing gear is a head scratcher for sure.

The 1st picture i found on the net.

The 2nd picture is a full size CL-415 gear.

3rd picture is a design from Martin Closterman from Quebec Canada.
http://www.mraerodesign.com/cl415/retract.html

I think Giacomo's cad video is excellent. I think the confusion is coming from the fact the top cylinder is his video is placed too far up on the pivot and should placed lower to actually pull the top leg in to lock it in place.

Grinder.




grinder-RCU -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 8:07:28 AM)

Here is a inside pic looking aft.

Grinder.



grinder-RCU -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 8:13:49 AM)

Martin Closterman has made up for plans of a CL-415 160"ws for me. The plans came out to 90' of rolled paper. I have a couple other projects to finish first before i get started on my CL-415. I would like to use a couple of these for powerplants if i come into some extra money. By the way how much $$$$ can you get for a kidney...........

Grinder.



Kmot -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 5:18:24 PM)

Grinder: I love to dream also. :D

My dream is that you find a way to get your powerplants and build this monster, and someday post a video for me to enjoy. ;)



Kmot -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 5:19:26 PM)

BTW: I see the CL-215 fly over my house frequently when they are on fire duty under contract to Los Angeles. They always fly in a pair, in formation.



grinder-RCU -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/17/2007 5:21:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kmot

They always fly in a pair, in formation.


Ahhhh.... the only way to fly.

Grinder.



Closterman -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/18/2007 1:47:41 AM)

Hello Grinder, when you will start on you CL-415, don't search for your laser cut parts, I have buy my own laser and I wil be able to cut your kit !!
[:D]

I work now to cut a 160" WS kit for a guys in Québec. I will put G-45 engine on his 415 !! But, if you put turbine, your the winner !!! [;)]




grinder-RCU -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/18/2007 7:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Closterman

Hello Grinder, when you will start on you CL-415, don't search for your laser cut parts, I have buy my own laser and I wil be able to cut your kit !!
[:D]

I work now to cut a 160" WS kit for a guys in Québec. I will put G-45 engine on his 415 !! But, if you put turbine, your the winner !!! [;)]




Yes i saw on your web site you do your laser cutting now. Cool. I for sure will use you for cutting my kit. Your are a good guy to deal with. Yes G-45's sound about right for CL-415. If i ever come into some money turbines will be the way to go but for now G-45's will have to do. Maybe later this year i will have you cut my kit for me. Giacomo's build is interesting to me, I'm following along with great interest.

Grinder.



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/18/2007 11:03:48 AM)

I'm back home gentlemen... on Wednesday I underwent a right shoulder surgery that I've been waiting for since the end of April 06.

Guess what: I am right-handed! My right arm is now secured in a "I-can't-do-anything" position and it will stay thiat way for at least one month.

Me too will be dreaming... about getting back to sandy work... but I'll take care of some CAD issues about the model in the meantime.



Kmot -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/18/2007 6:25:08 PM)

Best wishes for a speedy recovery Giacomo!

[image]http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/images/matron.jpg[/image]



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/19/2007 1:03:38 PM)

Thank you Tom!

In the days preceding the surgery I got the time to build the fuse mock-up where I'll test the main gear installation and operation.

Basically it is the same MAIN GEAR BOX (MGB) I built for the fuse but with upgraded plywood (birch instead of lite poplar) an a different C31 bulkhead (the -mask-). It allows me to:

- easily install all the pieces (installation in the fuse is possible but is a PIA and requires time and patience);

- inspect them as they move (some of them will be hidden in the finished fuse) for -diagnostical- purposes.

I didn't glue the forward -mask- in place: I used a large number of screws to allow its removal.



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/24/2007 2:38:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: grinder-RCU

I think Giacomo's cad video is excellent. I think the confusion is coming from the fact the top cylinder is his video is placed too far up on the pivot and should placed lower to actually pull the top leg in to lock it in place.

Thank you grinder. 1st things 1st though: CAD aknowlegement goes to Bernard who did it first and provided the info and drawings I used to model mine in SW... I simply re-did his work to double-check everything and to get a better understanding of the whole cynematics. Re-designing helps understanding...

About Mr. Closterman design: it is almost the same but for the locking arm hinge position with respect to the actuator attachment point:

- Closterman's hinge is above actuator attachment point ==> actuator pushes to lock

- Bernard's hinge is below actuator a-p ==> actuator pulls to lock

Same result, two different ways... Bernard's setup requires a single actuator but Closterman's could employ one as well...

IMHO everything works fine, or put it in another way, everything represents a very good trade-off between opposing needs.



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (1/24/2007 3:01:58 PM)

I did my homework with my left hand in these last few days... here it is what I came up with.

I was looking for air cylinders to operate the gear: I was looking @ the units made by Robart (3/8" bore), Skymaster, Ultra-Precision, Jet-1A, BVM and similars, when I came across 2 companies that make professional cyls of almost any size...

www.bimba.com & www.clippard.com

These are totally different animals than those listed above: 304 stainless steel body, 303 ss piston and rod, alu end-caps, bore sizes starting @ 5/16" , 7/16" , 1/2" and custom stroke lenghts, double or single effect, with or without failsafe springs... I think you got it!

[image]http://www.geocities.com/gb_teknik/CL-215/cutaway.jpg[/image]

It took me yesterday to browse through the many possible solutions and the CAD files provided by both the mfg.s surely helped me making up my mind: I actually integrated the selected cylinders into the model and tested if they worked as I expected.

LOWER Cylinders

Both Bimba and Clippard work fine: Bimba's are 7/16" bore while Clippard are 1/2", they share the same length and the same 1" stroke; identical, Bimba being polished on the outside.

[image]http://www.geocities.com/gb_teknik/CL-215/BIMBA_CLIPPARD.jpg[/image]

UPPER Cylinder

Here 1/2" stroke is needed PLUS some extra rod length (around 0.36'') that is more easily tuned with Bimbas than with Clippards. Same bore as above, 7/16".

Attached pics show setup with Clippards (first 2 on the left) and Bimbas (right, darker cyls)... not many differences at all!



Kmot -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/3/2007 12:34:51 AM)

How about an aluminum CL-215 model? [:D]

http://www.alumairplanes.com/en/product.html



Strykaas -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/3/2007 9:55:45 AM)

2000 eur what a bargain [sm=52_52.gif]



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/4/2007 5:20:04 AM)

Here's what I did with mine. I used Robart for the over center lock and BVM 7/16 rams for the retraction. Your plane looks great!.

Jed



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/5/2007 7:03:09 PM)

Very nice work FL510!!!

I see you retrofitted some Robostruts and that's exactly what I was thinking about... I really like their torque link! What size Robo did you use: 1/2" (670) or 7/16" (660) straight?

Is your CL from Aerodesign?

Does the gear operate smoothly? I mean, can you tell the cylinders fight each other somewhere during operation?

Are those cylinders powerful enough? What size Robart wheels? Mine are 3-1/4".

Again, very nice work and sorry for asking you all these questions at once...



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/6/2007 1:16:28 PM)

Giacomo,


The robo struts are 1/2 inch part #670. The gear do operate smooth, the little pistons operate so fast that the bigger BVM are not affected. I run the air pressure at a 100 PSI.
The 415 is from Aerodesign 80" wing span.
The wheels are robart 3 1/4 inch.

I made a mistake on the BVM's they are 5/8 inch cylinders. plenty of power.[:D]

Jed



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/6/2007 5:51:30 PM)

Perfect thank you!

One last thing: can you post any picture of the BVM rams arrangement?



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/7/2007 7:34:16 PM)

I'll do it when I get home on Thursday.

Jed



CL-415 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/8/2007 1:28:24 PM)

FL510

Where did you get your retracts machined? My Cl-415 is also from MRAerodesign but in a 96" wingspan. Can your source machined some bigger ones. At what costs?

Thanks,



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/8/2007 4:05:36 PM)

CL-415,

I took the plans for the gear to a metal shop here in Birmingham that does laser and water jet cutting. They supplied the 1/4 inch aluminum and cut it for around $80 USD. I'll have to get the name of the shop, I'm on the road and can't remember the name right off hand.

Jed



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/10/2007 6:16:01 PM)

The company in Birmingham Alabama is Laser Cutting Services. Phone number 205-595-7021. They would probably remember cutting my gear, because it was a little different from what they normally do.


Jed



FL510 -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/10/2007 6:20:45 PM)

Here are the pics of the layout of the main cylinders. The pictures are looking through the left main from the bottom and side. The Left side of pic is forward.


Jed



g_boxwood -> RE: Bernard Dumas' Canadair CL-215 (2/11/2007 12:46:13 PM)

Understood, thanks again! I see you incorporated the water pick-up system as well... very nice indeed.

In the meantime I ordered my cylinders from the local Bimba supplier, who will turn the order over to the Italian distributor, who will call the European who will get back to the US... around 6 weeks of dead time... but who cares?! I can't do anything right now, I'm just planning in advance.

I'm also re-drawing the tail surfaces: Bernard's are just fine, light and easy but I have my preferred techniques and re-drew them entirely; a few changes were made:
- each elevator half is removable from the fin
- each elevator half has its own servo, HS85MG because of the thin section
- the rudder is removable from the fuse (Bernard did this as well) and has a standard servo (HS425BB)

Having the tail-group totally removable eases transport and storage since those surfaces are indeed big and could be easily damaged.

Attached you will find some renderings of the elevator half. Hinging will be both scale and fuctional: this tech is from Mr. Vance Mosher (Vanguard Vancouver) and it is the standard hinging method I use. See the following pic:

[image]http://www.geocities.com/gb_teknik/CL-215/SECTION.JPG[/image]

Basically you have a one-piece hinge pin (usually around 1/16" steel) that runs the entire length of the moving surface inside a nyrod tube (the yellow one Sullivan sells with their Gold'n'Rods and similar stuff); the hinge pin passes through a number of ply gudgeons that are epoxied to the fixed surface TE. Easier done than said, again see pics.

Many advantages...
- scale appearance
- offset and bind-free hinge line
- removable moving surface (just extract the hinge pin)
... just to mention a few.

Things can be made easier using Robart hinge points instead of the gudgeons and steel hinge-pin... but I do like the custom tech best.



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