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FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/18/2006 7:43:06 AM   
Dil



Posts: 518
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Colombo, SRI LANKA
Status: offline 		ok fuelman, i read many of your posts and stuff, and since you make fuels i thought ill ask you

well i am getting a new os18tm and....

i make my fuel at home since i live in sri lanka we dont get fuel here that often, so when i get some fuel usually 1 gallon(30% nitro Fuel) which is very expensive as well, i take 1 litre of the 30% nitro fuel and mix it with 2 litres of methanol and castor 927(20% castor 927)

and my engines work fine, infact they scream, and run at the 230F range, well since my 30% nitro fuel is almost over!. I was thinking will my engines work without any nitro!!??, well after i mix my fuel anyway theres very little nitro, i think about 7% or less

and is it ok to break in my new os18 engine with my fuel mix??, i plan to heat cycle it like you have explaned in some of your previous posts. but what happenes if my engine doesen't get up to the 220F temp range during break in, do i have to lean it further?? to get it up there?? other than giving it the bursts of wot and varying the throttle and stuff during the first tank??

thanks regards
DIL

< Message edited by Dil -- 6/18/2006 7:45:27 AM >

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/19/2006 4:56:38 AM   
burtcs


 

Posts: 456
Joined: 12/20/2004
From: Corvallis, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Dil:

What it sounds like you want to do is run FAI fuel. This is the fuel used in international competition (usually). It's usually 80% methanol and 20% lubricant. It may be easier for you to get and it's much easier to homebrew. Just two components.

You will need to fool with your engine some to get it to run right. Mostly you'll need to increase your compression ratio. Sometimes the combustion chamber is changed to permit a better burn. Thousands of people break their engines in with FAI fuel just fine. This is your call. You'll find more information on the WWW. FAI engines scream - yea. Good luck...

HTH - Steve B.

(in reply to Dil)
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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/19/2006 1:48:45 PM   
Dil



Posts: 518
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Colombo, SRI LANKA
Status: offline 		burtcs

what can u say about the heat cycling method, shoud i lean the engine further to get it up to temp 220F, incase it doesent get up to temp soon,

also i really like getting into rc planes soon, so can you give me some model number of an engine that can run with 0%nitro reliabily

thanks
DIL

< Message edited by Dil -- 6/19/2006 1:51:56 PM >

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/19/2006 5:41:18 PM   
burtcs


 

Posts: 456
Joined: 12/20/2004
From: Corvallis, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Dil:

I'm not familar with an OS 18tm (it sounds like maybe a car engine) but it probably does not need to be heat cycled. That mostly was for ancient engines with cast iron pistons and steel liners.

Do what the instructions tell you to do. The OS engines I have run have always been run a little rich and little else. That is to say peak the engine RPM then back off a few clicks on the needle. I don't think theres anything special about 220F, that probably running pretty cool..

HTH - Steve B.

PS: If I may ask, where did you get this engine. I can't say for sure but engines sold over-seas (that would be someplace other than the US of A) are often already set up for low Nitro/FAI kind of fuels.

< Message edited by burtcs -- 6/19/2006 5:44:52 PM >

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/19/2006 6:19:25 PM   
Dil



Posts: 518
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Colombo, SRI LANKA
Status: offline 		butcs

i bought this engine from the USA, infact i didnt get it yet, its with my friend and i am getting it around the 15 of next month, its for my traxxas t-maxx monster truck, its a 3cc o.s racing engine

here have a look for yourself

http://osengines.com/engines/osmg2112.html

i read alot of articles of theese engines from many racers and people, everyone says not to follow the manufactures instructions, but to do the heat cycling break in method which is basically getting the engine up to normal operating temperature during the first tank which is around 210F to 230F+


http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=549 ( here check out the rcuniverse review of this engine!!)

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2786285/anchors_2786285/mpage_1/key_heat%252Ccycling/anchor/tm.htm#2786285

here is a link of the heat cycling methos read fuelmans method its around the 5th post, and this is the method i plan to follow

http://www.johnnycoolguy.com/JCGR/main/tech_break-in.html this is another link about heat cycling and i am really convinced about this method

regards
DIL

< Message edited by Dil -- 6/19/2006 6:21:50 PM >

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/20/2006 4:07:38 AM   
downunder



Posts: 3198
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dil
I was thinking will my engines work without any nitro!!??

It'll work fine with zero nitro and you can run it in on that fuel too with no problems. You'll find the needle may be a bit more sensitive to adjust but that's only because you'll be getting better fuel consumption. Also, you may need to use a slightly hotter plug but try it first with whatever plug you're using now. Increasing the compression helps but isn't really necessary and you need to have a good idea of what you're doing because you have to lower the head closer to the piston and if you over-do it you'll hear lots of banging sounds

Modern engines don't need heat cycling because there aren't any materials used in them that need it. The one exception that I know of (in glow engines anyway) is the Enya 40 which still uses a cast iron piston. As for head temps, well that varies from engine to engine, but I think the reason it's used in cars is because it's more difficult to know if the tune is correct or not. The main thing to remember (especially when running in) is that rich is safe and lean is bad! With a car you've basically got to drive it to get the revs high enough and then listen to the sound and watch for smoke from the exhaust. If the engine sounds a bit rough at full throttle then it's nice and rich so lean it a little at a time until the roughness is only just there occasionally. That's where you need it for running in.

The only car engine I've ever used was an old OS 21 with the cast iron piston maybe 25 years ago and that was run entirely on zero nitro fuel. Never had a problem with it. All my aircraft engines are run on zero nitro too.

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/20/2006 11:40:45 AM   
Dil



Posts: 518
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Colombo, SRI LANKA
Status: offline 		wow thats awsome!!!! i mean the price i pay for nitro fuel is very high, if i can do it without any nitro thats gonna save me alot of bucks,,

i tried some 0% nitro fuel in my tnx engine today,, and well ya it worked fine, ok i could feel the drop in the initial pick up but the speeds were still up there, and i am really happy,

do you think if i break it in with zero nitro, it will perform better??

about the heat cycleing method.. soo many people praise about it and the performance it gives and most peoples engines have lasted longer as well,, but you seem to have a different opinion about it i suppose,

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/20/2006 4:50:56 PM   
downunder



Posts: 3198
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dil
do you think if i break it in with zero nitro, it will perform better??

Running in an engine with or without nitro makes no difference to how it'll end up running. Heat cycling is one of those urban myths floating around because there's nothing in an engine to benefit from it. Cast iron is the only thing that can be heat cycled to good effect. The truth is that ABC's are pretty tough and about the only thing that can damage them when running in is having them too lean. It's true that everyone has a different opinion and I have my own after doing a bit of an experiment with a new ABC so really you have to decide what way you want to do things after reading as much as you can. With the heat cycling opinions, while it won't actually do anything it also won't cause any harm because all you're doing is short runs and letting it cool down.

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/20/2006 5:22:18 PM   
Dil



Posts: 518
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Colombo, SRI LANKA
Status: offline 		thanks for your help,, i think i will break it in with the 0% nitro and stick with it,, i wrote to os engines about using no nitro, ill see what they have to say, but you must be knowing better so ill take your word!.

and ill be using a lc3 hot plug that would help me out with running no nitro as well,

i dont get it, y cant it still be like your old days when u guys never used nitro and had fun!!, i mean, i think nitro is a sometimes a waste for the price you pay even in the U.S

tower hobbies sell their 0% nitro fuel, 4 gallons for 35$ and if it was the nitro i am sure it would be close to a 100$, its just doesent seem worth it,

i think engine manufactures should go back to making engines to perform on 0% nitro, that way the whole hobby would be quite reasonable, and even people like me from the asian region can enjoy the fun,

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 6/21/2006 3:07:10 AM   
downunder



Posts: 3198
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dil
i dont get it, y cant it still be like your old days when u guys never used nitro and had fun!!, i mean, i think nitro is a sometimes a waste for the price you pay even in the U.S

Way back then nitro was only used if you were going into a competition where you needed every bit of power the engine could make. Like in speed. If you were out flying just for fun then the same engine would be run on zero nitro. The exact same thing can be done today but most Americans are nitro crazy because it's cheap over there and most seem to think it's a necessity. It's not. When the first Saito 4 strokes came out the Americans complained because they weren't running very well with nitro so Saito had to lower the compression to suit the largest market. Moki had to make a different cylinder head for the American market (by request from the American agent) because of the same complaints. The rest of the world just happily goes on using zero or very little nitro

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 7/2/2006 10:41:38 AM   
MassiveMods



Posts: 1561
Joined: 11/23/2003
From: SydneyNSW, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I think what the purpose of heat cycling in these engines is to make sure the sleeve expands to oprating temp so the piston dosen linish its self against the sleeve. this is crutial . there are many ways to heat cycle an engine . Fistly id would follow Fuelmans post to the letter, he is one of the top fuel makers and tuners in the US today . My recommendation is to do the following

Wrap alfoil around the cooling head
Pre heat with a hair dryer
Start the engine and within the first minute lean it to get a rich but clean tune
pop it on the ground and start to play with it. run it up and down to get heat into the engine
let it cool with piston at BDC
Just keep doing this for about a litre of fuel and youre away !

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 7/2/2006 5:17:39 PM   
bentgear


 

Posts: 2743
Joined: 3/25/2002
From: Brandon, MS, USA
Status: offline 		You might get a different response if you post the question over in the car section, since it is a surface use engine. While it will run on 0 percent nitro, there will be a difference. You might be able to gain back some perfgormance by raising the compression with a thinner head shim, longer glo plug ( make sure there is no contact with the head since the OS uses the short plug), etc.

Ed M.

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RE: FUELMAN NEED YOUR HELP!! - 7/2/2006 8:08:34 PM   
Fuelman


 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 12/31/2001
From: Jordan, NY, USA
Status: online 		Dil,
Take the head shim out that comes with the engine, use a stock length plug that is hotter than stock and fire it up and go have some fun. Forget the temps, tune it right out of the box to be running in a clean two stroke condition but not lean.


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Fuelman
Cooper Fuels LLC

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