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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/2/2011 4:30 PM   
Patto



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 2/28/2012 6:33 PM   
mach2


 

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Status: offline 		hey guys, i know this is an old thread, but i had a question about flying 3D and most other threads are about planes and set up.

Anyway, I am a new sport flyer and i dont know if i will ever get to the point of trying 3D. However, I do play a lot on the simulator. I can hover the Yak 3D with gyro on Realflight. I can hover it really well and do torque rolls n such. The Yak 3D without the gyro is obviously much harder to hover.  Do most 3D guys just use aft CG to be able to fly these types of maneuvers, or is a gyro something at is commonly used?

And where can I read about a gyro to see how they work and how they are mounted in a plane?

Just curious. Thanks,
Jeremy



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 2/28/2012 9:31 PM   
AirWizard



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/24/2012 6:21 AM   
djmp69


 

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Status: offline 		Glad I stumbled onto this, seems like I'm doing everything prety much the way you said.  Very interesting you pointed out to "not mess around" or end up in an inverted flat spin.  Equally interesting, is that on my Edge, I nail it every time, to the point that the plane is literally spinning on the wing axis with the wing pointing straight down, not the slanted knife edge attitude.  And that's at idle.  If I throttle up, it just gets faster and more exciting.

Now the kicker:

On my Funtana, which is balanced a bit tail heavy (purposely, just like the edge), I can only get it in the slanted knife edge attitude.  If I add throttle, it does like you said, goes into an inverted flat spin.  I've also tried going right into it, idle and with some power, same result.  The only way I can seem to get it to somewhat KE spin is to just let it fall, no rudder, all aile and Down Elev.  I also notice I need to keep more left aile in, as opposed to the Edge, which I can get the stick damn near neutral for the perfect KE spin.

I know different planes fly differently, but to this extreme? Is there something I'm missing, maybe different setup options for the Funtana, or does the Edge just do it better because its a better tumbler?  My rudder rates on both planes in high are
relatively the same in both planes, but the Funtana has way more relative throw in the elevators.  No Rudd/Elev mix on either bird...

Any ideas?


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/24/2012 2:36 PM   
RC MANIAC119


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mach2

hey guys, i know this is an old thread, but i had a question about flying 3D and most other threads are about planes and set up.

Anyway, I am a new sport flyer and i dont know if i will ever get to the point of trying 3D. However, I do play a lot on the simulator. I can hover the Yak 3D with gyro on Realflight. I can hover it really well and do torque rolls n such. The Yak 3D without the gyro is obviously much harder to hover.  Do most 3D guys just use aft CG to be able to fly these types of maneuvers, or is a gyro something at is commonly used?

And where can I read about a gyro to see how they work and how they are mounted in a plane?

Just curious. Thanks,
Jeremy



3D Guys DO NOT use a Gyro, and rarely is AFT C/G used.

3D is all about power, and power management.........Rudder and elevator control, and of course the proper airframe!!

The only "tricky setups", if you can call it that, is application of
"Expo" setting in your radio setup.

Keep trying, and turn off those setting that make it easy....gyro and aft C/G, and fly it like you stole it!![>:]

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/24/2012 5:09 PM   
djmp69


 

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Status: offline 		I agree, leave the gyro, expo, and mixing stuff alone.  That stuff can actually get you into trouble sometimes.  I've seen and exerienced it.  Plus, you'd be surprised at what you can come up with when you do stuff without the aid of mixes and gyrosthe learning curve introduces new things that you can harness, perfect, and turn into new maneuvers...


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/25/2012 6:55 AM   
mach2


 

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Status: offline 		Its funny that this thread was commented on. I forgot i was subscribed to it.

Anyway, the funny part is that ive been hitting the sim a lot lately and im doing really well with some 3D stuff. I just bought a 67" carl goldberg Edge 540 with an Eflite 110 motor and im not getting crazy, but I understand how much 3D depends on the Plane, Pilot, and power. It can hover but its gotta be around full throttle to hold it.

Im going to swap it out and put my DLE20 in the plane because the flight times suck on the electric.

Anyway, I do use expo, I do not use mixing, and Ive learned how to hover pretty well on the sim without the gyro.  So ill just keep altitude and keep on tryin to progress in my skills....

Still looking to get a 30cc plane. Edge or MX2...

Jeremy



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/28/2012 6:52 AM   
djmp69


 

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Status: offline 		Both really cool planes!  From my experience, the Edge is a great tumbler, and needs very little control surface throw to do anything, so it's a great 3D bird.  Never had an MX2, but if they do what Rob Holland can make the full scale version do, it should be a blast as well.  Best of flying to you!


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/28/2012 7:29 AM   
mach2


 

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Status: offline 		I asked this in a thread and got zero response. maybe someone in this thread can help me. Im going to switch to a DLE20 in the Edge listed in my sig below. The engine flies my revolver well with a Xoar 17x6, but for 3D type flying should I go toward a faster prop like a 15x8 or 14x10 or stay with a big prop with more pull like the 17x6?

the plane had good thrust and it hung on the prop with a APC 17x10e on the Eflite Power 110, but the flight time sucked on the electric, thus the switch to gas....and I know its a completely different power and rpm and a different style prop. So Im not sure where to start. I have a Xoar 17x6 16x6 and a 15x8....

Thanks,
Jeremy



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/28/2012 5:54 PM   
djmp69


 

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Status: offline 		For 3D, you want more torque for better throttle response than pull.  The more pitch you have in the prop, it will be faster, but your spool-up will be slower, and you don't want slow spool up when you hit your throttle. Especially in hovering.  A larger diameter will compensate for the lower pitch, and give better prop wash over your surfaces which is what you want since 3D maneuvers are basically maneuvers at stall speeds, and you really dont have alot (if any) forward movement to create other airflow over the surfaces.

I would say if you can keep the AUW (all up weight) around 8 lbs, put a xoar 17x6 on that DLE 20, and have some fun!  IMHO, the DLE20 will be fine for that bird.


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 6/28/2012 7:50 PM   
mach2


 

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Status: offline 		cool man. Thanks a lot. I had seen the props on some of the big gassers were like a 10 pitch, but that's a totally different power with a large diameter prop. Ill put the 17x6 and see how she does.

Jeremy



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 9/18/2012 10:29 AM   
bunyip27


 

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Status: offline 		hi guys

i'm trying to do high alpha on my gold wings 30cc mx2 but getting heaps of wing rock. i can do them reasonably well on my faomies with little wing rock.

cheers

bunyip



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 9/18/2012 12:34 PM   
RC MANIAC119


 

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Status: offline 		Dial in some EXPO......negative EXPO if you use any Futaba system........ that should slow down the over control issue with the ailerons!

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 9/18/2012 2:58 PM   
djmp69


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119

Dial in some EXPO......negative EXPO if you use any Futaba system........ that should slow down the over control issue with the ailerons!


Unfortunately, dialing in expo would only make things worse. The key is angle of attack (AOA) vs throttle. If ur gonna use expo anywhere, use ig one ur elevator. Also the key is to NOT bump ur throttle, make smooth easy and deliberate throttle adjustments.  Trust me, i had the same problem and those  few pointers work, both for harriers AND elevators, both with really high AOAs.



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 10/26/2012 2:10 AM   
sideflyer


 

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Status: offline 		Just jumping in on the sim comments. I have both Phoenix and real flight. I have found real flight uses more computer resources and shudders a bit more. I really like Phoenix and have found I use it more and more. My real flight is still setup for the controller that came with the sim. With Phoenix I use any controller I want. Bought an adapter to use Phoenix from hobbyking for 10 Bucks that also allows me to buddy cord to almost anything.
Real flight has more planes and fields, but I don't really need all of that. Just need some planes that help me practice 3D for both fixed wing and heli.


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 11/10/2012 6:12 PM   
MikeEast



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quote:

ORIGINAL: djmp69


quote:

ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119

Dial in some EXPO......negative EXPO if you use any Futaba system........ that should slow down the over control issue with the ailerons!


Unfortunately, dialing in expo would only make things worse. The key is angle of attack (AOA) vs throttle. If ur gonna use expo anywhere, use ig one ur elevator. Also the key is to NOT bump ur throttle, make smooth easy and deliberate throttle adjustments.  Trust me, i had the same problem and those  few pointers work, both for harriers AND elevators, both with really high AOAs.




Actually, this is not true. I have been on hiatus for a few years but I still check in from time to time. Expo is a fantastic tool and a much needed help to improve the flight quality of a plane. Because servo speeds, imbalance in your setup and about a million other things, mixes and expo are great tools if used correctly. Once you figure out how to setup an expo curve so that the control surface response is soft where you need it to be around center stick, and then set to respond in a similar fashion at higher throw rates its something you wont want to live without. If you think expo and curves are cheating or that not using them makes you a better pilot, think again. Expo programming is no different than adjusting geometry and control surface deflection limits to achieve the same effect. Except expo work better.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 11/11/2012 1:05 PM   
RC MANIAC119


 

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Status: offline 		Mike..thank you for that vindication!

I'm not sure what kind of skills djmp69 has....but it was very clear to me that his RC resume' was limited, or his experience with expo was at a minimum...

Either way, his advice was way off base, as are so many comments here on RCU.



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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 11/11/2012 3:19 PM   
bubbagates



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Status: offline 		Like MIke, I am still lurking so I decided to catch up a bit and will certainly address the expo thing.

Expo is certainly something to use and learn to use properly. It is not cheating. I know quite a bit great 3D pilots that fly IMAC as well and I can assure everyone, they use expo. I asked several of them over the years and I found one common thing, they all thought expo was not needed, but at the time, they were "stick bangers", always flying behind the plane (playing catch up) on most maneuvers and never quite feeling like they were in total control at all times, again being reactive versus pro-active. They learned to use expo and fly IMAC and they became much better pilots all around. IMAC or Pattern (not the same thing) teaches you proper airplane control. A lot of pilots swear they can fly a perfectly level and straight line until they get in front of judges in 20mph winds (that's not an exaggeration) and find out they flew that line with a wing low, climbing or falling slowly and drifting in or out

I can also assure you the pilots flying IMAC use all sorts of radio settings to help take the work load off the pilot. Once you get a plane properly trimmed, and not just using the TX's trim tabs, but going through Peter Goldsmith's trim chart, you will find that any type of flying that you do will become way easier and much more fun as you can now concentrate on flying the maneuver you want to fly fully knowing the plane is not going to do something stupid. The chart works well for all planes, big and small

Also, if you want all of this and more at your finger tips, I have a app called IMAC Lite in the Apple app store that has all kinds of tools that can apply to all types of flying, though it was built mainly around IMAC. There is also one in the Android marketplace called IMAC Pro, which is literally the exact same app that I started to develope and gave it to another developer to finish (I know, shameless plug on my part )


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RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 12/9/2012 1:21 PM   
hobbieplanet


 

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Status: offline 		Great Topic! Boy i Could Have Used This Forum Many Planes ago!   
www.hobbieplanet.com



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