RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (Full Version)

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diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/17/2006 10:34:23 PM)

grind



diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/19/2006 2:25:57 PM)

well i was working on rolling circles on the sim, tried it with the "real" plane yesterday, i can get about a half circle of rolls before i start getting behind the plane, i am rolling kinda quick i think, but i did that half circle about 3 times, so i am getting there, and i got to say, even though its only half way there, it looks pretty f#u*k*ng cool...



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/19/2006 3:49:30 PM)

COOL! Keep going. The hardest part will be that last 1/4 where the plane is coming back at you.



Cooper 1 -> RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/24/2006 12:17:04 AM)

What sim are you flying in the videos? Is it Aerofly Pro?



MikeEast -> RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/24/2006 1:03:38 AM)

That is Aero Fly Pro Deluxe

www.aeroflypro.com



shakes268 -> RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/28/2006 7:48:42 PM)

I've started working on harriers (sadly, I can do rolling harriers straight and then turn them back down the field...but just never practiced harriers)...

Here is the thing, I go up, flip the plane over in a waterfall to inverted and as it starts to come down in an inverted elevator I start adding power and well, it goes into a nice inverted flat spin. Now, I can assume I'm doing a couple of things wrong....

1) I might be using too much elevator - is that correct? Should I let the nose drop a little or should I immediately start pulling (pushing) to a 45 degree angle?

2) I need to adjust my throttle curve. It's a DA-100 and it really has a tons of power - so the addition of power so far for me has been difficult - it either goes into the flat spin or just hangs there, motionless and eventually pulls vertical.

3) I'm unintentionally hitting the aileron and inducing the spin.

Which of these is most likely to be the problem when someone is starting work on these?

Something though - since I'm still fairly new to all of this :) How do you *KNOW* you're in high alpha? My QQ 102" Yak honestly feels the same no matter what attitude its in. I figured there'd be quite a bit of difference in control surface response but its pretty awesome that I haven't seen a single control surface dead spot.



diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (11/28/2006 10:21:22 PM)

i use expo on my throttle for the same reason, i am up to 50% now, its a zdz80, but it really helps trying to fine toon a spot with the throttle, i'd try that no matter what, and as far as harriers, i just come in normal and flip her over, cut the power, as it slows i start adding down ele(inverted harriers i am talking about), then feed in throttle, i can get them pretty darn good, no wing rock, i got good at aileron to counter that, then using throttle and ele i can bring it down lower and cruise right buy, its cool, the more throttle the less ele, and visa versa, does any of that make sense?, then i steer with rudder, but need to counter with ail when doing that or it can tip over



RC MANIAC119 -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 6:49:47 AM)

Mike...............the only 3d maneuver I have Not been able to conquer is the rolling 360......so I broke out the Sim...G2, and taught myself.

I thought I was doing pretty good, until I noticed..(in other peoples videos) That for some strange reason I am doing it backwards!!! Or am I??

When I start the roll to the left side..(wings rolling counter-clockwise).........my circle is also going to the left. With a right roll (clockwise) the circle is also going clockwise.

Now the real problem is that when I realized what I had done, I tried to do it like everyone else (rolling left, circle to the right).....I CANT DO IT, no matter how hard I try....the plane refuses to go in that direction.

Did I invent a new maneuver?

What would you recommend I try to correct this............

Thanks



akschu -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 6:54:02 AM)

I also have a question.... After hours and hours on G3 I can finally do a rolling harrier. Rolling right is completely natural now (can even do it on my mojo), rolling left is harder, but doable, but sometimes I do it straight and sometimes I do it in a circle. So the question is how do you steer the rolling harrier?

schu



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 2:36:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119

Mike...............the only 3d maneuver I have Not been able to conquer is the rolling 360......so I broke out the Sim...G2, and taught myself.

I thought I was doing pretty good, until I noticed..(in other peoples videos) That for some strange reason I am doing it backwards!!! Or am I??

When I start the roll to the left side..(wings rolling counter-clockwise).........my circle is also going to the left. With a right roll (clockwise) the circle is also going clockwise.

Now the real problem is that when I realized what I had done, I tried to do it like everyone else (rolling left, circle to the right).....I CANT DO IT, no matter how hard I try....the plane refuses to go in that direction.

Did I invent a new maneuver?

What would you recommend I try to correct this............

Thanks



[8D] No that is normal. Some peopple roll right and some left, some turn to the inside and some outside. When its all said and done you should be able to roll left or right and steer the plane anywhere you want to go while rolling either direction including in a stright line. You can all ascend, descend, and loop while doing rolling harriers. It takes major sticktime to get proficient at rolling harriers. You just have to keep practicing and it will come eventually. I know that is not any HELP perse', but thats really it. Learning RH is about sheer determination. If you can do it the way you are doing it now there is nothing anyone can tell you, apply that knowledge and keep practicing!!!

I am assuming you are talking about rolling harriers, not just normal rollers??



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 2:53:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: akschu

I also have a question.... After hours and hours on G3 I can finally do a rolling harrier. Rolling right is completely natural now (can even do it on my mojo), rolling left is harder, but doable, but sometimes I do it straight and sometimes I do it in a circle. So the question is how do you steer the rolling harrier?

schu



To steer a rolling harrier you have to use the elevator and the rudder. Whatever surface is vertical becomes the rudder. Also you have to learn how to rudder correct "correctly" when the plane is inverted. Again, steering is not some thing that you can really teach or explain,,, its something you just do... Rolling harriers are just like learning to ride a bike.. To learn how to do it,,, you just have to get on the bike and do it. If you can already comfortably do a rolling harrier in one direction then there is not much to teach..

All I can say is PRACTICE,,, and focus on seeing what the airplane is doing... I am assuming that going in a circle is easier. IF so the first step is controlling the size of the circle. Practice on making the circle larger, smaller,,, the point is it should be the diamter that you want it to be,, not the siz that it just happens to end up. When you can make a circle that is the size you want it time after time and you can maintain a steady altitiude (not just the altitude it happens to end up at) you will be ready to move on.

I have said this before... Its like hitting a 100mph fastball.. At first when you try it it is so fast that you cannot possibly see it coming or time your swing... But after a while it starts to get easier and it does not seem so fast. Same thing here, in time the airplane will not seem to be so far ahead of you and you can just look at it and clearly see what corrections need to be made.


Last you guys REALLY need to practice FLYING and I mean controlled flying if you have not already.. You will never fly pretty 3D if you cannot fly and roll in a straight line at a constant attitude and do it in control and with purpose... You should be able to do slow rolls that are slow, flat, evenly paced rolls the length of the field. You should be able to rudder correct smoothly and correctly. Places to test this are in a loop, flying inverted in a STRAIGHT line holding a STRAIGHT line at a constant altitude parallel to the runway while inverted. Learn to rudder correct flying in a vertical upline and downline with the canopy or belly facing you. If you cannot do these things, then really rudder intensive stuff like rolling harriers, especially straight line or specifically steered RH's are going to be difficult if not impossible to crisply control.



bubbagates -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 8:50:20 PM)

quote:

Last you guys REALLY need to practice FLYING and I mean controlled flying if you have not already.. You will never fly pretty 3D if you cannot fly and roll in a straight line at a constant attitude and do it in control and with purpose... You should be able to do slow rolls that are slow, flat, evenly paced rolls the length of the field. You should be able to rudder correct smoothly and correctly. Places to test this are in a loop, flying inverted in a STRAIGHT line holding a STRAIGHT line at a constant altitude parallel to the runway while inverted. Learn to rudder correct flying in a vertical upline and downline with the canopy or belly facing you. If you cannot do these things, then really rudder intensive stuff like rolling harriers, especially straight line or specifically steered RH's are going to be difficult if not impossible to crisply control.


I totally agree with this. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen decent 3D pilots but they cannot fly a roll on a straight line, hold a wind corrected up and down line, fly inverted through an outside loop or even just a long straight level upright pass down the runway.

I've seen too many go and try the IMAC basic sequence in a contest and get smoked but then at the same time they go and do some of the better freestyles. IMAC is not easy at first. straight wind corrected lines are an absolute must.

Once you can do all of that your 3D will definitely improve.

I am in no way putting down 3D flight. I'm not the greatest 3D pilot but I do love to see a good 3D show.

And just an update on turning this thread into a PDF. I tried 3 times to get it to look good and still be readable but it's not the easiest thing to do. I am sorry it is taking so long but between hospital time, assembly time and a promotion at work, my free time has been somewhat limited




akschu -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 9:43:19 PM)

The explanation Mike gave didn't help me much since I knew that steering was done with whatever surface was up, but it did cause me to think about it and which caused me to realize what I was doing wrong. The problem is that sometimes I'm late to get off of the rudder or elevator. In order to go straight the control input must be in exact proportion to the roll.

As far as learning to do basic flying, your right. Now that I can do the thing I've been working on for a month, I'm moving onto other things (4 point roll) and finding it pretty difficult.

Anyway, thanks for the help,

schu



diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/16/2006 11:50:50 PM)

akschu: that is a funny avatar pic[sm=49_49.gif]

i too am working on a nice slow roll down the runway, i got the rudder down pretty good in both directions i tend to over correct while inverted and climb a bit, its a mental thing



akschu -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/17/2006 8:01:10 AM)

It's the only way I could find to make my props last :p



shakes268 -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/19/2006 5:54:57 PM)

Something that has helped me...
I could never get a rolling harrier going straight but started just purposefully slowing myself down - and giving inputs just "AFTER" I felt I should. Also, throttle blips at upright/inverted help keep it straight. Throttle blips while in knife edge help to turn.




diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/19/2006 7:24:00 PM)

i starting doing one almost by accident a while back, i was doing(trying) a slow roll, but i guess i was coming in early with the rudder, the plane started going right as i rolled left, and when it came over i hit the opposite rudder early, same thing, i did about a half circle of rolls that way, i never did change the elevator or throttle, i know its not a rolling circle by any means, but it did kinda look like one for a while, i guess it was more like some slow snap rolls or something, it was kinda cool and some people watching were impressed, its a start i guess



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/20/2006 3:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akschu

The explanation Mike gave didn't help me much since I knew that steering was done with whatever surface was up, but it did cause me to think about it and which caused me to realize what I was doing wrong. The problem is that sometimes I'm late to get off of the rudder or elevator. In order to go straight the control input must be in exact proportion to the roll.

As far as learning to do basic flying, your right. Now that I can do the thing I've been working on for a month, I'm moving onto other things (4 point roll) and finding it pretty difficult.

Anyway, thanks for the help,

schu



lol,,, which makes my point and was exactly what I was trying to get across... I was not really trying to help you,, you are going to have to figure it out for yourself..
Once you get to this point there is very little that you can be taught.. Its like trying to explain "how" to ride a bike.. You CANT.. When you teach your kids to ride you dont explain the art of balance..... You just keep brushing off their knees, wiping their tears, and putting them back on the bike and running behind them screaming PEDAL PEDAL PEDAL!!!! After enough time it just clicks and all the sudden they are riding.. Keep practicing and it will come![8D]



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/20/2006 3:35:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shakes268

Something that has helped me...
I could never get a rolling harrier going straight but started just purposefully slowing myself down - and giving inputs just "AFTER" I felt I should. Also, throttle blips at upright/inverted help keep it straight. Throttle blips while in knife edge help to turn.




Me personally,, and everyone has their own visual reference,,,, when I am flying straight line rolling harriers I make my heading corrections when I am inverted. I dont even think about the harrier roll, but I watch the inboard wingtip when the plane is inverted. I make my rudder corrections to hold the line at that point every single revolution.



Ernie Misner -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/26/2006 2:41:58 AM)

Of how much benefit is getting on the sim and just flying constantly in knife edge for extended periods of time? When I am in knife edge and the elevator becomes the "rudder", I am still not having that riding a bicycle feeling yet is why I was considering just doing that for hours this winter.

Thanks,

Ernie



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/26/2006 3:11:57 AM)

Getting comfortable switching to/from any attitude especially when you end up on knife edge isreally important and will only make you better. Something that helps is to fly around in knife edge and just randomly roll. Any combination of roll and swithing direction of roll. Point rolls, any roll combinations, but end up in knife edge. Learning to switch around from edge to edge from any roll combination and with the airplane going in any direction is just going to make you that much better. Just try to always make it look smooth and definite. Only add difficulty as you can manage and make it look good. If you are out of control and stuggling with the most basic stuff, dont try to jump ahead until the basics are intuitive.



diamondave -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/26/2006 9:00:19 PM)

i just starting doing ke circles, horizontal, not vertical, like you said, trying to switch sides, even doing ke figure 8's, i can get it going pretty good, i just start losing it all if i try to keep rolling, one here and there is good, so i am on my way i guess[:D]



Ernie Misner -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/27/2006 6:39:48 PM)

It surprised me the first time I saw Kyle Woyshnis fly knive edge with his big gasser, just flying really low and slow. Almost like knive edge harriers. Besides skill it must take a very good airframe without any nasty coupling habits to do that.

Ernie



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/27/2006 7:39:57 PM)

Ernie you are correct when talking about the average human being.[8D]

Kyle is seriously no average human being. We don't call him "The Alien" for nothing.

I flew with Kyle a few weeks ago and let me tell you.. He can fly the most out of trim plane out of whack plane that you can possibly imagine and make it look like what you see in the videos. If I were a mfg, I would be begging him to fly my stuff because he can make ANYTHING look incredible.
As a matter of fact, I would venture to imagine that some of what you have seen in the videos is sometimes with out of trim planes that fly poorly. He is incredible. In the night flight video we made back in November with the AW 260 QB from our fly in he was flying a friends plane.. It had no expo, mega throws and was really REALLY tailheavy. It flew pretty good but it was about as sensitive as you can possibly imagine. I am a pretty ok 3D pilot and can do most anything within reason but when I flew that plane I was AFRAID. I kept it up high and flew very cautiously. Kyle grabbed the sticks without a warmup flight, AT 11PM AT NIGHT, and commenced to put on one of the most incredible displays of elegance ever with nothing but a Q Beam to light his way. A lot of what he did that night is not on the videos for good reason, but lets just say that the kid has no fear and total control and can SAFELY do basically anything he wants, anytime he wants and anywhere he wants, RIGHT NOW.

On top of that he is one of the most soft spoken, humble and yet open, conversational and pleasant men,, much less 17 year old boys I have ever been around. Kyle is going to set a new standard for R/C aerobatics.



MikeEast -> RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers (12/27/2006 7:46:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

It surprised me the first time I saw Kyle Woyshnis fly knive edge with his big gasser, just flying really low and slow. Almost like knive edge harriers. Besides skill it must take a very good airframe without any nasty coupling habits to do that.

Ernie



Really if you want to know the truth, high alpha knife edge flight is pretty easy .. Typically what you get is a LOT of coupling to the belly when you are really digging in with the rudder like that. The CG in the right place helps, but as with everything it is a give and take proposition. I use a curve mix so that I can exponentially increase the elevator mixing as I increase throw.

Heres the thing though,,, You know what a lot of elevator and a lot of rudder is conducive to though huh? SNAP!
While in knife edge if you are using elevator and rudder you are inviting snap and trust me it can happen. You have to be paying close attention while in HA KE. It does not happen often, but if the conditions are just right the plane will snap unexpectedly.



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