RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing  
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RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/2/2006 6:36:41 PM   
P. Johnson


 

Posts: 177
Joined: 7/24/2004
From: Paris, IL, USA
Status: offline
Bash away, I can take it.
I was only sharing what was said to me at the races. I think what he was trying to explain was that if you have 100 pilots and 10 events, thats 10 pilots per event. 100 pilots and 2 events, 50 per event.
I am doing my best to try to encourage local pilots to race anything they have, just to get the hook set on what its like to race and try to out fly your oponant. once they get that "RUSH",, the speed will come and then we have future racers.
I just think that too many classes will "dilute" the events we already have.

Again,,,this is just an opinion, right or wrong,,,I dont have the almighty answer. I do think that the initial EXPENCE of racing is a major road block, along with the high speeds ,,,but 424 planes DO have throttle and are an excellant starting point at a lower price.


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Please ... Don't eat the Monokote !!

(in reply to garys)
       Post #: 76

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/2/2006 7:49:16 PM   
aseaholm



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Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Lees Summit, MO, USA
Status: offline
Chuck,

Take a deep breath bud. The majority of racers aren't empathetic, they're realistic. I think it's great you've taken the bull by the horns and put on some Sky Raider races. The biggest problem is, it's very tough to sustain club level events because "Competitors are getting harder to find". They are few and far between at any club, in any part of the country. Most of the guys flying pylon have been around for a LONG time. We've all seen a lot of time and effort put into these type of activities only to watch them wither and die when the next club/sport activity comes along.

We've been down the national club/entry level road with combat. Remember Open C, it was going to save the combat world because everyone had a .46 laying around. Then it was SSC and the cheap .15's going to push membership to all time highs. We're both hanging out in the pylon forum so it seems those weren't the cure all. We need club level events to spur interest, however, I think national rules have no place at these type of events. If we would have left SSC as a club/entry type event without national points, it may have met our high expectations.

It sucks we have to drive to get to contests, most of mine are in the 500-600 mile range. I feel your pain. I'm not complaining tough, that's the way it is right now and I'm going to do my best to support those contests. I'd like to change that but it does take time.

You are going to get your butt waxed in pylon for a couple years. I did and still am. The level of experience and skill in pylon is very high. That's part of it's appeal for me though and new comers have to realize the bar is set pretty high. Grouping Standard/Novice and Experts in 424 is an effective way to ease the learning curve. The SE guys have had good success with this.

Anyway, this has gotten long winded, again. I say attend and compete in a couple District 8 NMPRA meets before you write those guys off. There's a good group in TX that are more then willing to help people get going.

Keep up the good work. Everyone has opinions on forums. Those willing to make it happen, like yourself, are what we need...

_____________________________

A.J. Seaholm
NMPRA - 17V | RCCA - 185

(in reply to P. Johnson)
       Post #: 77

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/2/2006 9:25:27 PM   
gunfighter


 

Posts: 629
Joined: 7/13/2002
From: Canyon Lake, TX, USA
Status: online
AJ ol' bud, believe me I know how hard it is to find competitors these days. And yes, I remember open C and the beginning of SSC. I still remember that day at Richardson when you guided me through my first combat meet too, and I greately respect you for that. BUT...

I did think long and hard before I posted that one. I have read through these forums and others and it seems that most existing pilots are quite satisfied to keep things just as they are and accept the dwindling numbers as a way of life. You know I have never accepted that. I will work as hard as I can to promote what I think COULD be an answer to the dwindling numbers.

I live in the LEAST competative area in the state (and maybe the world!!) It is nearly impossible to get any one to compete at ANYTHING!
Yet, we have been successful in getting 10 - 15 pilots to fly against each other on a monthly basis with this event. We have had a different winner each month. Don't you think this merits some cooperation from the pylon community? I remember when we were promoting combat throughout the state (and nation) and we went almost "door to door" to other clubs putting on demonstrations. We lit a fire under a few people and swelled our ranks by quite a bit. I believe we have that chance again in another sport, but if current pilots would rather just "let it be" and face continuing shrinkage of the ranks...I guess there is nothing I can do about that.

I have had several calls and e-mails from former pylon pilots that are excited about what we are proposing. They agree that we need this kind of "grass roots" effort to get pilots back into pylon. If we could get a few of the "big guns" to support us and maybe show up at an event to share some ideas and secrets, who knows how far this could go.

Regardless...new pilots have to come from somewhere and where else is that going to be. They certainly are not breaking down the door as things are now. and we are not taking away from the current ranks of pylon racers, we are sincerely trying to add to it!

flame away!


(in reply to aseaholm)
       Post #: 78

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/2/2006 10:32:46 PM   
garys


 

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Joined: 1/31/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
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Obviously some have different opinions from me, which is why we live in America, right? Anyways, I don't believe we'll see the Skyraider type classes increase participation into traditional 3-pole racing when compared to what exposing those same people to AMA 424 airplanes would do.

The problem I see is the casual sport flyer isn't going to be interested in going to many races outside of their own club, and with a few small exceptions, most clubs won't hold more than 1 or 2 events a year. Plus, of those casual racers that do get into the Skyraider type events because of their "low cost" (one of the biggest reasons people have said to have these events), I don't invision many of them then going out and spending more money for a Q500 and Thunder Tiger to go racing 424 after already spending money on a Skyraider to race...If they were exposed to Q500's of some type initially, I'd think there would be a better chance of them moving on because at least the airplane is the same...

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GS

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 79

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/2/2006 11:58:43 PM   
Ken Erickson



Posts: 307
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
Status: offline
This is not necessarily a reply to gary, but. . .

Here is the poster Gunfighter to which referred. Already there are two clubs hosting these races. The current plan is to have one race a month in 2007. We do not accumulate points. The guys are already buying Thunder Tiger Pros. $79.95 qualifies as cheap.

The last time we started a race thingy in San Antonio, it lasted 7 years. Now there seems to be interest. Maybe we just want to have fun.

I am hoping we can hold this program to what it is now and the next step, for those who want to, is to go Quickies and TT Pro - type racing.

Now the heresy -- -- maybe it will be 2-pylon races. In my opinion, the 3-pylon course is one of the bigger obstacles to more participation. But,

Anway, Tony Stewart started in go-carts, as did most of the4 NASCAR stars. Go-carts, jalopies, Modifieds, Super modifieds, Late model, Midget, Outlaw, etc. Not all came up the same way, but none of them started in NASCAR.

There are probably some still living, who emulated the full-scale races by flying 3-pole. It is still the top. But why have we had soooo much negative reaction for starting a low-level race? I still think there will be more new blood in "real" R/C racing, if there is more low-level racing for the merely interested.

Anyway. here is the poster.

Ken Erickson

OOOPS, maybe a moderator can thumbnail that.

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< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 8/2/2006 11:59:48 PM >

(in reply to garys)
       Post #: 80

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 12:07:53 AM   
Ken Erickson



Posts: 307
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
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I need to swallow my tongue. We are getting encouraging responses from "Real" racers!!!! I will let them identify themselves, if they want to. Evidently, there will be some at the September race at Canyon Lake. And they say they are bringing novices with them.

What a Deal!

Ken Erickson

Chuck, I did not mean to imply that you are not real.


(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 81

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 12:15:07 AM   
djlyon



Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Castaic, CA, USA
Status: online
3 1/2 years ago nobody in our club (Castaic, Ca. Canyon Crosswinds) was into pylon racing or any other kind of competition except some occasional scale. At that time about 5 or 6 of us decided to give it a go in 424. 2 major things helped. 8 to 10 races (5 weekends) per year within an hours drive and Barry L's help and encouragement. Without a number of races being within striking distance it would have been a non starter. The original 5 grew to 10 regulars flying a mix of 424, 428 and Q40. The original 5 or 6 are still very active and their encouragement and help for others that showed some interest resulted in the growth. 2 other very experienced racers joined the club in the meantime and were also a big help. I expect that 3 more current club members will be racing 424 by the end of the year. We do have other kinds of racing i.e trainers, slow quickie and T-6.
If someone is intimidated by a 424 plane with a TT40 and a THROTTLE he/she is not getting the right kind of guidance and encouragement. The ARFs (and they are very competitive in 424 despite the protestations of some) are nothing but easy to fly simple little box sport planes. If 100+mph spooks you at first use the throttle or put a 25 in it (slow quickie) till you get used to it. If you want to race something else go for it. If it catches on great. That's how T-6 got started. Simple, cheap and a ball. But if want to win by just by just buying a competitive plane and not putting in the hours and hours of practice and prep your not going to make it. It doesn't make any difference what kind of racing it is somebody is going to be willing to work really hard to be a winner and he's going to be one real regular. So if you can't or don't want to put in the time then be like me and just get out there and race and enjoy the rush, fun and camaraderie and be happy with my results if I just managed to place higher than my last race.
People that think they are at a disadvantage with Vipers or Predators or because they're starting second in 424 racing sure haven't been racing in any of the races I've been in for the past 3 years. A 10ft head start might make a difference to the top guys ie Gary and Travis going at it but not for the most of us. My Pred and Viper weighed about 3 12 to 3 13. In the April race at the basin when Fred and Travis took turns at breaking the record their planes were checked and they were closer in weight to Vipers than they were to the lower limit of 3 8

There Clark I did it. I vented. Now I'm going to Germany for a few weeks and ignoring this board.

Denis

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I never met an engine I didn't like.
Of the things I've lost I miss my mind the most.

(in reply to garys)
       Post #: 82

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 4:11:01 AM   
Clark L



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From: So-Cal, USA
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Well written Denis.... I couldn't have said it better myself....


(in reply to djlyon)
       Post #: 83

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 5:24:30 AM   
HighPlains


 

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From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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I find it amazing to read all these posts about how hard it is to fly a 424 quickie. They have a wing loading that is lower than almost any trainer on the market today, so the complaint is what? They go too fast? If that is the case, a simple prop change or the throttle is available to slow it down. It is true that dead stick landings are slightly more difficult, but with that throttle you don't have to kill the engine until you are over the runway.

I will also admit that a quickie in full race trim is harder to control than the typical sport model for the beginning racer. And the advice you will read in most posts only tells how it works in full race trim and how to set it up. BUT here is a little secret about setting up a quickie - balance it so that it is NOSE HEAVY so that it takes more elevator throw and it becomes much more like the typical sport model. With it set up nose heavy, you decrease the sensitivity of the elevator so that you will now need twice or three times as much throw to do the same radius turn in the air. This will also slow the airplane slightly, but it makes the landing much more predicable. In full race trim, a quickie is almost a free flight model because if you bounce a landing, you no longer have the elevator throw to counteract the bad landing bounce.




I have long thought that there needed to be a better way of operating a race. The current method of scoring a race originated about 40 years ago. And frankly, it works fine for the experts at the top, though with a bit of luck they sometimes have a lot of easy races. An easy race is one where someone can lap the rest of the field. This inflates the expert’s score, while it tends to discourage the new guys that are being blown by. I think that everybody would agree that racing is the most fun when it is “wingtip to wingtip”. Perhaps it is time to examine a new way to organize a race, by stratifying the contestants by skill level, equipment and heat time.

By stratifying the race entrants by time, you would be flying against others with equal skills. Equipment requirements would no longer matter as much, so you can buy and compete at the level you are comfortable with. Say you have 20 contestants at a race. You already have a pretty good idea who is very fast, and who is still learning. So you set the matrix up with the expected fastest four in heat A, the next four in heat B, and so on to the bottom. Fly the heats. If you win your heat, you move up to the letter heat above. Come in last in your heat, and you drop a letter for the next round. In effect, each round of heats sorts out the entire group. At some point in the day, you fly the last round, without the contest management telling the competitors that it is the last one. Each heat winner of that one round are given the respective trophy for the A, B, C…to the bottom.

Other advantages? Each heat remains at 4 planes throughout the contest, regardless of attrition (except the last heat of the round) With this method of organization at least 25% of the contestants win something. Much better than the typical 2 or 3 years of never winning that most go through. The goal of advancing to a higher cup would be an incentive to keep working at it to improve from race to race. The radio technology (Spread Spectrum) is on the Horizon (OK, that is a slight pun) to make this easy to do. With the large number of frequencies available to us now, it just takes a bit of coordination until the new technologies are widely available.



Two pole or three pole racing? Hey, three pole is not what it used to be anymore with the elimination of slicing and buttonhooks. Clubs go out of their way to drive into the minds of RC’ers to never fly behind the flight line, then we go stand in the middle of the flight. It is a lot of fun to do that, but difficult for many to get the practice. While I hope that we continue this tradition of the past four decades, we should be able to adapt to build numbers in whatever form people want to begin with at the local level.

_____________________________

In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to Clark L)
       Post #: 84

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 5:29:27 AM   
Ken Erickson



Posts: 307
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
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The heretic agrees fully with Denis!!!!

His first paragraph points out his situation. He says it would not have worked in ours

Second paragraph also good. Except for the part about throttling back. Even "traffic, such as myself would not think of doing that. Can that actually happen.? We are using a larger, slower, cheaper airplanes, but the same engine one would use in 424. So far, our best time for 10 400-ft laps is 1:52.

Vipers and Predators, with TT 40 Pros, would be way too fast for the limited space we have at almost allof our area fields. We started thinking some might use LAs. Several got out old 40s. now most hat TT Pros. We can barely get 400 feet of course, and even then there is the plane-eating tree 10 feet behind pylon 2 (of 2).

We have competitors, and we have participants, but as yet, not a lot of them. The participants make good officials for the competitors and vice versa.

Looks like we may have those 15 that Chuck hopes will be at Canyon Lake on September 9. I do intend to post a report.

Now Iwill sit back for a while and not agitate.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

Edited to recognize the truths written by High Plains. Three-pole is still the BIG LEAGUES. We are limited in availability of stadii. We can scratch up some t-ball fields.

Ken

Ken

< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 8/3/2006 5:33:57 AM >

(in reply to djlyon)
       Post #: 85

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 5:43:30 PM   
Clark L



Posts: 147
Joined: 1/22/2003
From: So-Cal, USA
Status: offline
I’m all for club racing. I think it’s a great way to get new blood and spark some interest. I just believe 424 (or some variant) should be the club racing class of choice. I also feel it’s important to run 3 pole (any dimensions) with 2 pole to be used only as a last resort (due to space considerations NOT pilot preference). With more 424 races maybe you’ll attract racers from out of the area, maybe you wont, but I guarantee you wont if you race a class nobody else races. You also may get a few of your club guys that are willing to make a short trip to another field to race. That’s how racing will grow. If some obscure local class is created, only those club members will ever race it. That doesn’t sound like growth potential to me.

I keep hearing the argument about how fast 424 is. I think that’s a false assumption by sport pilots. Give me a break, properly set up the airplanes fly like trainers. They have a throttle, can be flown my almost anyone, and are cheaper than most sport planes. A good point was made about quickies usually being set up for optimum performance and how that might make them a little more twitchy. Move the CG forward a bit, increase all the throws and now you have a nice flyer that any average pilot can handle. Hey, I was a sport flyer too when I started racing…. yep, 424.

Some people want to create a new nationwide class using some sort of “four-star-somthin’-or-other”. OK, If that’s the only class I can go race in my area, then I’ll race it, fine. However, just watch, any experienced racers they happen to attract are gonna get those things set up and dialed in for optimum speed and performance. You think there still gonna fly nice? Yeah, in the experts hands, but they’ll be blowing the doors off everyone else, and the same people that are complaining about how hard and too fast 424 is will now be griping about how fast the new class got and how they aren’t competitive.

In any class racing, the most knowledgeable, experienced and well prepared pilots are gonna be the consistent winners. Whether that’s Q40’s, Quickies, Trainers,,, whatever. And I’m sorry, but if they’re gonna give awards all the way down to last place just so I can feel good about myself, I’m not interested. I’m not here to win a trophy, I’m here to compete, to try my best to WIN a race, and to spend some time with my good friends. Anyone just getting started that is gonna be disappointed for not winning and collecting a trophy is in the wrong sport and wont last anyway…

Please don’t think I’m totally against a local class of club racing from all my ranting. If anyone wants to try something new, go for it. I wish you and your club all the success in the world. I just think that keeping things better standardized and consistent across the country should be more seriously considered. I feel this is what will help the growth of pylon.

Clark Leadbetter
Heretic

(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 86

RE: My thoughts about re-vitalizing pylon racing - 8/3/2006 8:39:16 PM   
Super Splatter