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Re: Re: points - 1/4/2003 12:06:43 AM   
David Cutler



Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B


I think this about sums up part of the problem.

Ask not what your hobby can do for you, ask what you can do for your hobby!

[/QUOTE]

Indeed, and, at slightly over one dollar per week, we get a lot.

Somebody used the word 'principle' in this thread. . . .

One dollar per week? I have to admit my principles aren't so finely honed and 13 cents per day expenditure is overtaken by other more pressing issues.

Jeez! It's a hobby! I wish other elements of it were as cheap!

David C.

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 51

promoting - 1/4/2003 12:17:46 AM   
rcflier_gi



Posts: 465
Joined: 5/10/2002
From: Grand Island, NY, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B


The AMA is about promoting the hobby (model aircraft, not just RC) not providing insurance. [/QUOTE]

Don't forget the clubs.

I think the local clubs do the majority to promote the hobby. I don't ever recall a new person coming to the field saying "I saw this story or heard about the AMA". Usually its "I see you guys flying here all the time. How does someone get started ? " And usually their next question is "How much does it cost to get started?" And honestly it is really tough for me to tell them it is going to cost $300 - $400 for a trainer plane, radio & related field gear PLUS $40 club membership and $58 AMA.


_____________________________

Current airworthy planes :
SIG Mayhem 3D w/OS 1.20FS pump

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 52

Re: promoting - 1/4/2003 12:26:22 AM   
P-51B



Posts: 6176
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rcflier_gi


Don't forget the clubs.

I think the local clubs do the majority to promote the hobby. I don't ever recall a new person coming to the field saying "I saw this story or heard about the AMA". Usually its "I see you guys flying here all the time. How does someone get started ? " And usually their next question is "How much does it cost to get started?" And honestly it is really tough for me to tell them it is going to cost $300 - $400 for a trainer plane, radio & related field gear PLUS $40 club membership and $58 AMA. [/QUOTE]

I didn't say clubs weren't important, just left 'em out since everyone is talking about the AMA, sorry.

I agree it is an expensive hobby. Are you suggesting that clubs should not have dues in order to reduce costs?

Actually, it is no different than golf. You pay $800.00 bucks for a set of clubs, $20.00 for balls, $100.00 for shoes, then there's tees, a glove, etc. Then you go out to the local course and find out that someone has the audacity to charge you $50.00 per round...+cart fees, and if you hit someone with a golf ball there's no insurance provided!!!! There's no end to the madness.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 53

a slip of the tongue - 1/4/2003 12:27:37 AM   
TheSollyLama


 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/2/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		I didn't mean to disparage R/C planes by calling them 'toys'. I have a fancy for them after all. But I also called my MX bike a toy and I had well over $9000 in it. Semantics. And no, I did not travel halfway across the US to ride my MXer - and I got paid to race. I sure ain't doin' it to fly a model.
So- thanks for that airfield in Muncie!
As for injuries from R/C planes. Someone have any solid statistics out there? More people die on golf courses every year than by R/C anything (except maybe Hellfires from a CIA Predator UAV!!!) and I don't know of a single golf club mandating supplemental insurance. Nor on a GUN SHOOTING RANGE!!!
The AMA insurance is a red herring.
You don't want to imagine the injuries I've seen racing motocross, and yet no track or club I raced in ever required supplemental insurance. Not at the amatuer level. Heck, even when I raced a few Arenacross events (PACE Motorsports sanction), all I had to do was display a PACE sticker on my bike to have coverage for the event. wasn't a member of that AMA or PACE.
Do people suffer badly from R/C injuries on rare occasions? Sure, but c'mon, what is there, like 1 fatality you have for evidence? And remember about who would actually get sued- not likely you but the property owner or club. Even the manufacturer might get named in a lawsuit, but proving you were negligent, in the legal term, is almost impossible. A lawyer will not chase Joe Tentpeg with a mortgage and kids (doesn't play well to judges) when he can go after clubs and land-owners instead- then it's a simple matter of liability instead of proving negligence to win.
Spend that money on increasing much more useful insurance like homeowners. That will cover your whole life, not just a single hobby. My homeowners would already cover my planes if say, my house went up in flames. AMA would never even pay out on it! And Homeowners will replace MY HOUSE while they're at it. Thanks but no thanks, AMA.
I'm not hung up on $58, but I don't feel like pissing away money for something that affects the few elite of the hobby. Someone with a 70 pound jet doing 150mph every weekend may need the AMA to argue for bigger and faster limits. He very well may need insurance, if just for the cost of the model itself. But I'm a hobbyist- I do other things like play bass. Why should I pay the same insurance premium, flying my 6 lb 25mph trainer maybe a dozen times a year, as the jet jock? I don't drive a Ferrari, and consequently don't pay Ferrari insurance premiums.
My wife is an insurance agent with Progressive (with absolutely no interest in R/C). I asked her to take a look at the AMA insurance deal. She agrees that the cost is low for the amount of coverage, she agrees that the insurance is really nearly useless with some very specific and extreme exceptions. Better to bump your regular homeowners policy. Homeowners may cost a little (very little) more and not cover $2,000,000, for the same price, but it covers close to it, and it covers EVERYTHING, not just this one hobby.
So will I join the AMA? It depends on how hard it is to find a place to fly outlaw. I have the entire Rocky Mountains and plains East of them. Doesn't look good for the AMA....
I'm just glad I can say that the AMA palace in Muncie didn't get built on my dollars. Nor will the next selfish project. They should have spent that money on subsidizing local clubs to pour hard runways, establish facilities, and run events- or keep that membership fee down. Instead a priveliged few got a shiny new flying park.

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Dream Evil

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 54

ask not... - 1/4/2003 12:39:42 AM   
TheSollyLama


 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/2/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		And really- contorting Kennedy quotes? "Ask not what your hobby does for you."
Hey dude, it's a HOBBY! I want to kill a few hours a couple times a month. 99% of people flying fall into this catagory. It's not a nation, it's not my life.
The hobby did nothing to promote itself to me. I've had R/C cars for ages and wanted to try something else. Of course that R/C car didn't require me to shell out a couple hundred clams for membership dues just to play with it.
I think planes will be much more fun. But every extra dollar I dish out just to get into the playground saps my enthusiasm. As it must for a heck of alot of people.
Then to find out that it's really a wasted $58 (from my non-lifer status point of view) I really get frustrated. And oh yeah, it seems that a large chunk of the mandatory-to-join AMA membership dislikes it. Very encouraging.

_____________________________

Dream Evil

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 55

Re: Re: promoting - 1/4/2003 12:46:08 AM   
rcflier_gi



Posts: 465
Joined: 5/10/2002
From: Grand Island, NY, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B



I agree it is an expensive hobby. Are you suggesting that clubs should not have dues in order to reduce costs?

[/QUOTE]

No, but most people like to get "things, goodies or presents" for their money. Even though I know the benefits the club produces it's tough for the newbie to understand. Initially the only thing he/she sees for the membership fee is a membership card.


_____________________________

Current airworthy planes :
SIG Mayhem 3D w/OS 1.20FS pump

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 56

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 12:51:42 AM   
TheSollyLama


 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/2/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		"Initially the only thing he/she sees for the membership fee is a membership card"
--Exactly. I already have a more important card (my personal insurance) in my wallet. Along with $58 I can use to increase my coverage.
I will give the lobbyists their due for keeping freq bandwidth.
I don't need another magazine.
I will never see Muncie, IN.

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Dream Evil

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       Post #: 57

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 12:51:45 AM   
FLYBOY



Posts: 8696
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Status: offline 		Geez SollyLama, for a new guy, you sure sound like you have been around a lot. You make great points, unfortunately, as I said in an earlier post, most people miss the point entirely. A lot of guys keep saying that there is competition and you can buy other insurance. Sure, you can, just don't ever try to compete or fly at a field that is AMA sanctioned. Sure, $58 is cheap for insurance, but get rid of the millions of dollars spent on a "National Flying Site" that very few will get to use and other wasted money spent by AMA, and the dues could be way less. Granted, $58 will not break any one of us that flies RC planes, but it is the principle of the wasted money. A lot of guys have a problem with the stock loss that AMA had last year. That kind of thing happens and unless you want the AMA to keep the funds in a no interest account, those are the chances we take. That is not a big deal to me that they loose it, because they will make up for it in the future. The point is, if you want to compete, you have to join, no choice, naada, none! You can't just buy the insurace, you have to support every other venture that AMA thinks they need to be in as well. That is what most of the guys don't like. If it was $58 for Just insurance, and all of it was used for insurance, probably, noone would complain. But as stated in other forums, it is more like $15 to $20 for insurance, and the rest just goes to support things other than insurance. Unfortunately, that will not change.

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Fly it till the wings come off.

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       Post #: 58

Re: ask not... - 1/4/2003 12:53:08 AM   
P-51B



Posts: 6176
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheSollyLama

Hey dude, it's a HOBBY! And oh yeah, it seems that a large chunk of the mandatory-to-join AMA membership dislikes it. Very encouraging. [/QUOTE]

Hey duuuuude, once again, it is not mandatory to join the AMA to fly, only to fly at an AMA chartered field!

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 59

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 12:57:10 AM   
P-51B



Posts: 6176
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by FLYBOY
unfortunately, as I said in an earlier post, most people miss the point entirely...If it was $58 for Just insurance, and all of it was used for insurance, probably, noone would complain. But as stated in other forums, it is more like $15 to $20 for insurance, and the rest just goes to support things other than insurance. Unfortunately, that will not change. [/QUOTE]

I think you have missed the point. The AMA is not an insurance company, the secondary insurance is merely a benefit of being a member. The AMA is about supporting model aviation!

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 60

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 1:04:56 AM   
akpilot



Posts: 196
Joined: 10/26/2002
From: St. Peters, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I'm sorry but, can people quit using the analogy of comparing r/c to golf. Someone may pay through the nose for golf, but they physically see something for their "green's fees" - property in the form of a manicured golf course, club house, etc. And the money is locally spent.

As for the cost of r/c compared to other hobbies - some of us choose to invest only $200-$300 others, into the thousands of dollars. So why compare $800 clubs, when a person can still golf on a set of $95 Wilsons?

I'll be the first to admit that I compared the AMA to AOPA. Maybe it is apples and oranges, but it's still an avaition entity aimed at general aviation, not the pros. My point was, that lower fees can be done. Sure we don't have the population base as general aviation, but then respectively limit our scope. Forgive me for not knowing, but has the AMA ever come in with full guns (and congress) to keep an r/c airfield open; like Megis?

My honest opinion, is we just don't see anything tangible for a $58 a year AMA membership. Again, the insurance benefit is a secondary policy, not my primary. I don't like having to write my car insurance and homeowners checks out, but they are my primary policy. I don't carry a second homeowners policy or car insurance, just in case my primary doesn't cover it.

As for the magazine, make it self-sufficient. If it's coming from the HQs of r/c aviation, why shouldn't/couldn't it compete against RCM or MAN? Advertising from our favorite sources would obviously be there.

I would rather see the local clubs be responsible for the property and liability insurance and see AMA be concerned with national issues such as ensuring security of our frequencies and promoting/supporting (not forcing) the hobby on a national level.

Again, I'll still pay AMA because I'm required. But, comeon let's not hide behind the secondary insurance policy. Besides, when the AMA had good years on their investments, did the dues go down?

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 61

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 1:09:34 AM   
TheSollyLama


 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/2/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		"Geez SollyLama, for a new guy, you sure sound like you have been around a lot. You make great points"

Thanks. I've been a member of many organizations in racing motocross and worked closely with a track owner. I know who gets sued- and it is almost always the property owner. I've seen good organizations and ones that mis-spend money and have silly requirements.
R/C flying stands alone in it's restrictive nature of paying AMA or not flying. At the amatuer level, and on a sanctioned field, there should be no reason to demand supplimental insurance.
Part of the problem is local clubs demanding it (even though thier own insurance is far more likely to have to pay out than the AMA) in addition to thier own outrageous fees.
Like I said, if I got memberships this year, I'd lay out close to $200. That's ridiculous. I barely spent that in practice fees for two years at a supercross track. Which I dare say needs more expensive equipment and insurance!
I don't even complain about the price of the equipment. Hey, pay it or don't. But I chafe at dropping a couple C-notes just to play with a toy I already dopped hundreds on.
I have known people that were turned off to flying almost singlehandedly when told to add a couple hundred (or even another $58) to the hobby bill just to participate.

_____________________________

Dream Evil

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 62

Re: Re: ask not... - 1/4/2003 1:22:10 AM   
rcflier_gi



Posts: 465
Joined: 5/10/2002
From: Grand Island, NY, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B


Hey duuuuude, once again, it is not mandatory to join the AMA to fly, only to fly at an AMA chartered field! [/QUOTE]


I would have to say that almost nobody joins the AMA because they want to, they have to for the insurance coverage as it's required by the local club and local flying field. The AMA has a sweet deal since they have most clubs and flying fields locked due to their basically useless insurance scam (the AMA is gooood the AMA will protect yooou). When all local flying fields are AMA locked and you don't have the luxury of owning your own field what can you do ? Do you think if people actually had a choice to join AMA they would ??? Really ???


_____________________________

Current airworthy planes :
SIG Mayhem 3D w/OS 1.20FS pump

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 63

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 1:26:51 AM   
P-51B



Posts: 6176
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by akpilot
I'm sorry but, can people quit using the analogy of comparing r/c to golf. Someone may pay through the nose for golf, but they physically see something for their "green's fees" - property in the form of a manicured golf course, club house, etc. And the money is locally spent.

As for the cost of r/c compared to other hobbies - some of us choose to invest only $200-$300 others, into the thousands of dollars. So why compare $800 clubs, when a person can still golf on a set of $95 Wilsons?

I'll be the first to admit that I compared the AMA to AOPA. Maybe it is apples and oranges, but it's still an avaition entity aimed at general aviation, not the pros. My point was, that lower fees can be done. Sure we don't have the population base as general aviation, but then respectively limit our scope. Forgive me for not knowing, but has the AMA ever come in with full guns (and congress) to keep an r/c airfield open; like Megis?

My honest opinion, is we just don't see anything tangible for a $58 a year AMA membership. Again, the insurance benefit is a secondary policy, not my primary. I don't like having to write my car insurance and homeowners checks out, but they are my primary policy. I don't carry a second homeowners policy or car insurance, just in case my primary doesn't cover it.

As for the magazine, make it self-sufficient. If it's coming from the HQs of r/c aviation, why shouldn't/couldn't it compete against RCM or MAN? Advertising from our favorite sources would obviously be there.

I would rather see the local clubs be responsible for the property and liability insurance and see AMA be concerned with national issues such as ensuring security of our frequencies and promoting/supporting (not forcing) the hobby on a national level.

Again, I'll still pay AMA because I'm required. But, comeon let's not hide behind the secondary insurance policy. Besides, when the AMA had good years on their investments, did the dues go down? [/QUOTE]

Yours is one of the more lucid posts on this thread. Sorry about the golf analogy, but I have seen it used and thought it was a good one. I will see if I can't be more original in the future. I thought $800.00 golf clubs was a pretty fair average. I saw a set of clubs at Sams for about $190.00, and have seen "name brand clubs" at pro shops for over $1500.00, so I thought that $800.00 was pretty middle of the road.

On the "secondary insurance" issue, it is secondary for the flyer, but PRIMARY (based on what I have read in the other threads) for the landowner of the club...which according to Sollylama is the one who will be sued. Thus the requirement of being an AMA member to fly at the AMA insured field.

As for your point on the AMA magazine, maybe they should put in hobby shops and on newstands.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to akpilot)
       Post #: 64

Can of Worms - 1/4/2003 1:45:04 AM   
rcflier_gi



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From: Grand Island, NY, USA
Status: