What about Lithium Ion???  
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What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/2/2002 3:35:29 AM   
bvmjethead



Posts: 681
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: Newport News, VA, USA
Status: offline 		What's the story guy's. The Lithium Ion's power everything in consumer electronics, from cell phones to kids toys. Have you noticed that they are the backup batteries on your "mother board" in computer transmitters???

I'm looking to save weight and not get tricked into the "temporary" availability and support like I did with Duralites.
What do you think?

Scott
       Post #: 1

What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/2/2002 6:17:38 AM   
howardm4


 

Posts: 119
Joined: 12/31/2001
Status: offline 		http://www.cadex.com/download/NA_Li-ion1.pdf

try that and some of the other articles on that website.

(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 2

What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/2/2002 7:20:51 AM   
ftomteen4cat



Posts: 91
Joined: 12/6/2001
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I think those backup batteries are lithium-manganese dioxide. If they are indeed lithium ion, they're rechargable.

Lithium Ion is nice but they don't come in 4.8V packages, they require different charging methodologies than NiCd or NiMH, and they are inherently more dangerous.

It may be time to define a higher voltage standard for RC planes.. this isn't a new idea. Settling on a multiple of 3.6V would allow any of the popular rechargable chemistries.

just my musing..

(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 3

Cost - 2/3/2002 9:44:33 PM   
lnorris


 

Posts: 612
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		You can make Lithium Ion in just about any voltage needed. And charging is SO much simpler since they don't have the memory problems NICD and NIMH do.

The ONLY reason I can see is that they are significantly more expensive. Notice you also don't see them being sold at the battery center at Target either for this very reason. Hopefully soon they will come down in cost and be adopted for use in this hobby.

Of course there is also the reason that this hobby seems to be about 15 years behind constantly in technology. But don't get me started on that... (still using crystals blah.....)

< Message edited by lnorris -- Feb 3 2002 5:10PM >

(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 4

Re: Cost - 2/5/2002 4:02:41 AM   
Red Scholefield



Posts: 4980
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by lnorris
You can make Lithium Ion in just about any voltage needed. And charging is SO much simpler since they don't have the memory problems NICD and NIMH do.

The ONLY reason I can see is that they are significantly more expensive. Notice you also don't see them being sold at the battery center at Target either for this very reason. Hopefully soon they will come down in cost and be adopted for use in this hobby.

Of course there is also the reason that this hobby seems to be about 15 years behind constantly in technology. But don't get me started on that... (still using crystals blah.....) [/QUOTE]

You would do well to learn a little about this particular technology. 1) You can get any voltage needed as long as it is a multiple of the individual cell voltages. 2) Lithium Ion requires a very precise constant potential charger which are much more expensive to produce than the simple constant potential used for Ni-Cd or Ni-MH. 3) Memory, perceived or real, has absolutely nothing to do with the charge technology involved. 4) Lithium Ion technology has not developed at this time to the point where it can economically deliver the high currents of Ni-Cd or Ni-MH seen in our R/C equipment. 5)Strict control of depth of discharge is required for Lithium Ion technolgy.

The lag in technology in the hobby industry should make it easy for budding geniuses once they learn the basics to make a significant contribution to advance the hobby.
:

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Re: Re: Cost - 2/5/2002 5:44:03 AM   
lnorris


 

Posts: 612
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Actually, I do know more than a little about it.

1. Of course it has to be a multiple of the cells. BUT cell size and output can be a wide array of voltage. They can power everything from cell phones (with small cells) to electric cars with 12 amp-hour Li-ion tech cells.

2. It's true they require more advanced charging equipment. But I don't think that's much of a factor here other than cost.

3. Memory (which I admit, is more of a perceived thing) happens. But with the charging tech of Li-ion, is pretty much done away with.

4. They can develop plenty of voltage. They run professional video cameras (one example) that will supply 16.8v. for over an hour and weighs about 14 ozs.

5. see # 2

Now, I'm open to discuss this in more detail. I don't pretend to know everything about it but I would request you do so in a non-condescending manner.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by redscho


You would do well to learn a little about this particular technology. 1) You can get any voltage needed as long as it is a multiple of the individual cell voltages. 2) Lithium Ion requires a very precise constant potential charger which are much more expensive to produce than the simple constant potential used for Ni-Cd or Ni-MH. 3) Memory, perceived or real, has absolutely nothing to do with the charge technology involved. 4) Lithium Ion technology has not developed at this time to the point where it can economically deliver the high currents of Ni-Cd or Ni-MH seen in our R/C equipment. 5)Strict control of depth of discharge is required for Lithium Ion technolgy.

The lag in technology in the hobby industry should make it easy for budding geniuses once they learn the basics to make a significant contribution to advance the hobby.
: [/QUOTE]

(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 6

Standard Batteries - 2/5/2002 5:57:49 AM   
lnorris


 

Posts: 612
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Actually I got to looking around the internet and found this link http://www.sanyo.co.jp/energy/english/f10.htm

Looks like Sanyo IS making standard sizes.

Features;
* High voltage of 3.6V lets you cut down on the number of batteries you use.
* High energy density minimizes battery size and weight, making it perfect for use in small portable equipment.
* No metallic lithium is used so charging and discharging are very safe.
* No memory accumulation so it provides a full charge every time.
* The outer casing in square type batteries is an aluminum alloy, so overall battery weight is lower.

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       Post #: 7

What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/5/2002 7:26:57 AM   
2thelmt



Posts: 102
Joined: 12/28/2001
From: Acton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		New technologies in power delivery like Litium Ion must continue to be developed.
Personally, I dont like the "fear" of memory in my packs. That alone makes Lithium attractive.


(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 8

Re: Standard Batteries - 2/5/2002 7:49:58 PM   
Red Scholefield



Posts: 4980
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by lnorris
Actually I got to looking around the internet and found this link http://www.sanyo.co.jp/energy/english/f10.htm

Looks like Sanyo IS making standard sizes.

Features;
* High voltage of 3.6V lets you cut down on the number of batteries you use.
* High energy density minimizes battery size and weight, making it perfect for use in small portable equipment.
* No metallic lithium is used so charging and discharging are very safe.
* No memory accumulation so it provides a full charge every time.
* The outer casing in square type batteries is an aluminum alloy, so overall battery weight is lower. [/QUOTE]

Now that you have read the marketing hype read the fine print.

Lithium-ion Battery Handling Precautions
Source: Sanyo Engineering Manual for Lithium Ion 99.10.5.000

Danger

1 Do not disassemble or modify the battery pack. The battery pack is equipped with built-in safety/protection features. Should these features be disabled, the battery pack can leak acid, overheat, emit smoke, burst and/or ignite.

3 Do not discard the battery pack into fire or heat it. Otherwise, its insulation can melt down, its gas release vent or safety features will be damaged and/or its electrolyte can ignite, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition on it.

4 Do not use or leave the battery pack near a heat source such as fire or heater (80'C or higher), If the resin separator should be damaged owing to overheating, internal short-circuiting may occur to the battery pack, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition of the battery pack.

5 Do not immerse the battery pack in water or seawater, and do not allow it to get wet. Otherwise, the protective features in it can be damaged, it can be charged with extremely high current and voltage, abnormal chemical reactions may occur in it, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

6 Do not recharge the battery pack near fire or in extremely hot weather. Otherwise, hot temperatures can trigger its built-in protective features, inhibiting recharging, or can damage the built-in protective features, causing it to be charged with an extremely high current and voltage, and, as a result, abnormal chemical reactions can occur in it, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

7 To recharge the battery pack, use the battery charger specifically designed for the purpose and observe the recharging conditions specified by SANYO. A recharging operation under non-conforming recharging conditions (higher temperature and larger voltage/current than specified, modified battery charger, etc.) can cause the battery pack to be overcharged, or charged with extremely high current, abnormal chemical reaction can occur in it, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

8 Do not pierce the battery pack with a nail or other sharp objects, strike it with a hammer, or step on it. Otherwise, the battery pack will become damaged and deformed, internal short-circuiting can occur, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

9 Do not strike or throw the battery pack. Otherwise, the protective feature in it may become damaged, it can be charged with extremely high current and voltage, abnormal chemical reactions can occur in it possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

10 Do not use an apparently damaged or deformed battery pack. Otherwise, acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition of the battery pack may occur.

11 Do not directly solder the battery pack. Otherwise, heat can melt down its insulation, damage its gas release vent or safety features possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

12 Do not reverse the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals. Otherwise, during recharging, the battery pack will be reverse-charged, abnormal chemical reactions then may occur, or excessively high current can flow during discharging possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

13 The positive (+) and negative (-) terminals are arranged in a particular orientation. Do not force the connection if you cannot easily connect the battery pack terminals to the battery pack charger or other equipment. Confirm that the terminals are correctly oriented. Reversing the terminals will result in reverse charging, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating; smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition of the battery pack.

14 Do not connect the battery pack to an electrical outlet, vehicle cigarette lighter, etc. When subjected to large voltage, over current can flow on the battery pack, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

15 Do not use the battery pack for a purpose other than those specified. Otherwise, its guaranteed performance will be lost and/or its service life will be shortened. Depending on the equipment in which the battery pack is used, excessively high current can flow through battery pack, possibly damaging it and leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

16 It the battery pack leaks, and the electrolyte gets into the eyes, do not rub them, instead, rinse eyes with clean running water and immediately seek medical attention. Otherwise, eye injury may result.

Warning

1 Do not use the battery pack in combination with primary battery packs (such as dry-cell battery packs) or battery packs of different capacities or brands. Otherwise, the battery pack can be over discharged during use or overcharged during recharging, abnormal chemical reactions may occur, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

2 If recharging operation fails to complete even when a specified recharging time has elapsed, immediately stop further recharging.Otherwise, acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition can occur.

3 Do not put the battery pack into a microwave oven or pressurized container. Rapid heating or disrupted sealing can lead to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

4 If the battery pack leaks or gives off a bad odor, remove it from any exposed flame. Otherwise, the leaking electrolyte may catch fire, and the battery pack may emit smoke, burst or ignite.

5 If the battery pack gives off an odor, generates heat, becomes discolored or deformed, or in any way appears abnormal during use, recharging or storage, immediately remove it from the equipment or battery pack charger and stop using it. Otherwise, the problematic battery pack can develop acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

Caution

1 Do not use or subject the battery pack to intense sunlight or hot temperatures such as in a car in hot weather. Otherwise, acid leakage, overheating and/or smoke emission can occur. Also, its guaranteed performance will be lost and/or its service life will be shortened.

2 The battery pack incorporates built-in safety devices. Do not use it in a location where static electricity (greater than the manufacturer's guarantee) may be present. Otherwise, the safety devices can be damaged, possibly leading to acid leakage, overheating, smoke emission, bursting and/or ignition.

3 The guaranteed recharging temperature range is 0 - 40'C. A recharging operation outside this temperature range can lead to acid leakage and/or overheating of the battery pack, and may cause damage to it.

4 If acid leaking from the battery pack contacts your skin or clothing, immediately wash it away with running water. Otherwise, skin inflammation can occur.

5 Store the battery pack in a location where children cannot reach it. Also, make sure that a child does not take out the battery pack from the battery pack charger or equipment.

6 Before use, carefully study the Operation Manual and Precautions. For further information, contact a nearest SANYO distributor or representative. Safekeep the manual for future reference.

7 For recharging procedures, refer to the Operation Manual of your battery pack charger.

8 If you find rust, a bad odor, overheating and/or other irregularities when using the battery pack for the first time, return it to your supplier or vendor.

End of Sanyo Statement on handling.

Sanyo at this time does not offer individual lithium ion cells to the general public. They are only sold to OEM manufacturers that work with Sanyo to insure the necessary saftey devices are incorporated into the packs. :

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Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member

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What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/5/2002 7:54:09 PM   
Red Scholefield



Posts: 4980
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2thelmt
New technologies in power delivery like Litium Ion must continue to be developed.
Personally, I dont like the "fear" of memory in my packs. That alone makes Lithium attractive.

[/QUOTE]

How do you feel about the lack of information on failure modes, inability to cycle the packs to determine when they should be replaced, lack of information on end of life indicators, packs that will indicate full voltage while having practically zero capacity, packs that will self destruct if you forget an leave a switch on (just once)?

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Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member

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       Post #: 10

Lithiuim Ion is available - 2/5/2002 8:02:21 PM   
Red Scholefield



Posts: 4980
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline 		For those wanting to explore the frontiers light weigh power systems a Lithium Ion system is presently being offered by Skyborn Electronics
http://128.241.173.227/

The system is reviewed in detail in Jim Oddino's column in January 2002 RCM magazine page 62.

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Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member

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Smart packs - 2/5/2002 8:24:43 PM   
lnorris


 

Posts: 612
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Actually I was just about to state that the packs should have circuitry preventing over/under charging when you posted the link. Those packs do have that built in.

And a smarter charger that CAN "cycle" a Li-ion battery and determine if it's still good. Just has to charge it and measure the amount of time it then takes to discharge it.

Failure mode COULD be solved by a backup. The batteries are so light you can have two seperate packs with a failover and indicator. This COULD all be built into the "pack"

The main reason though I still say is cost. But I bet as the cost comes down, you'll start to see Li-ion batteries more and more.

(in reply to bvmjethead)
       Post #: 12

What about Lithium Ion??? - 2/6/2002 1:47:00 AM   
ftomteen4cat