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RE: SK ENGINES - 7/23/2007 10:45:16 PM   
playntraffic


 

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From: Alabaster, AL, USA
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Thanks for the ideas on the tuning. I know that I was running a little rich on the high speed needle as I checked with the tach and did a pinch test.

I received an email from tech support that suggests that I reset the low speed needle. I will try that.

Overall I am very pleased with my SK50. Never had a dead stick on any of my break-in flights.

Looks like I need to pick up a 12x5 APC.

(in reply to 2thelmt)
       Post #: 301

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/23/2007 11:52:11 PM   
Ed_Moorman



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From: Shalimar, FL, USA
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Hey, Point Mugu, as I understand, you shouldn't run an SK engine rich. Ray Nano, the engineer, has said that even though the engines are ringed, they have tapered bores and must not be run rich or you can damage the engine. The cylinder won't open up enough and the ring will be pinched in the groove. The break-in given in their instructions is very much like an ABC break-in.

Here's what he said:

quote:

Ok, I’ve been avoiding this thread but I think a couple of things should be set straight. So this is the one and only time I will reply to it. If you choose not to believe me, that’s fine, if not that’s fine too... We sell over 150 engines a month, And I have been dong the tech support on them for 6 years. About 3% are returned with real problems, the rest of the customers just need a little help getting them dialed in.

1} Yes we have had a problem with sticking carbs, the clearance between the body and the barrel is too tight, and occasionally a deformation producing an edge at the venturi opening. The problem occurs in about 1 in every 75 motors. The new carb design is in testing now.

2} even though the engines are ringed we still run cylinder taper, so we need heat to expand the top for correct break-in. Four-stroking is bad in all our engines.

3} We did make the 75-90’s in both ring and ABC, the ABC has been discontinued, seems we can’t get people out of the old habit of four stroking them during break-in and they were scoring the cylinder/piston and eating crank pins.

4} Artisian’s post#43 is wrong. Several things happen when the engine runs out of port timing that are sometimes difficult to understand. It’s not the same as closing the throttle and restricting the air. Some of the symptoms are fuel leakage from the back plate gasket or the front bearing, the engine will go lean, and you will see excessive cyl. head temp. The reason for this is the crankcase takes a full charge but it can’t get it up through the ports to the top end. As the piston comes down crankcase pressure becomes excessive and it has to go somewhere. On occasion you will notice fuel that actually spits out the carb, or some of the other symptoms of reversion.

5} our engine are ported for a max RPM between 11,000 and 12,500 depending on the displacement. Short port timing allows the engine to produce more torque, but restricts RPM. They like larger diameter props.

6} We use a very hard chrome on the liner that takes longer to break in than most other engines, most don’t develop full power for several gallons of fuel, again depending on the displacement and SPFC.

8} there have enormous strides made in engine development and design in just the last couple years alone, partly due to metallurgy and a better understanding of flow dynamics. They are getting lighter, more powerful and more user friendly. What was standard just a few years ago no longer applies to some designs.

9} be careful what advice you take from the threads on the net, here or elsewhere. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard someone tell me “I’ve been doing it that way for 30 years, it’s always worked and I ‘m not about to stop now”. People with that attitude are idiots, avoid them. If it was true we would all be using AM transmitters and building our airplanes with Ambroid and carpenters glue.



I can tell you that I have broken in 3 SK engines as specified in the instructions and they all run great.

< Message edited by Ed_Moorman -- 7/23/2007 11:53:11 PM >


_____________________________

Ed Moorman, AMA 553, KD4QBM, Revver Bro #156
R/C Report Magazine, Fun Aerobatics Column

(in reply to 2thelmt)
       Post #: 302

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/24/2007 5:42:29 AM   
XJet


 

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From: Tokoroa, NEW ZEALAND
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ed_Moorman

Hey, Point Mugu, as I understand, you shouldn't run an SK engine rich. Ray Nano, the engineer, has said that even though the engines are ringed, they have tapered bores and must not be run rich or you can damage the engine. The cylinder won't open up enough and the ring will be pinched in the groove. The break-in given in their instructions is very much like an ABC break-in.

I have to ask why on earth anyone would use a tapered bore on a ringed engine -- it's just not necessary!

One of the big benefits of a ring is that it will expand and contract to seal the bore even when that bore expands more at the top than the bottom due to combustion heat.

What's more, there are very good reasons *not* to taper the bore unless your metalurgy and manufacturing tolerances are *very* good...

quote:


3} We did make the 75-90’s in both ring and ABC, the ABC has been discontinued, seems we can’t get people out of the old habit of four stroking them during break-in and they were scoring the cylinder/piston and eating crank pins.

And there's an example of why it's stupid to taper a bore when you're not using the best materials or machining accuracy.

There are plenty of folks who have actually tried to destroy ABC engines with tapered bores by running them *really* rich (DownUnder might have been one of them from memory) -- but no detectable damage was produced.

The fact that one in 75 carbs are admitted as being faulty seems to further indicate that these SK motors are not exactly what you'd call "quality" when compared to the likes of their slightly more expensive peers.

quote:

6} We use a very hard chrome on the liner that takes longer to break in than most other engines, most don’t develop full power for several gallons of fuel, again depending on the displacement and SPFC.

Chrome is *so* much harder than cast-iron (the stuff piston rings are usually made from) that it shouldn't make any difference. The ring is the part that does the wearing, not the bore. That's why most ringed engines can be revived by simply fitting a new ring when they start getting down on compression. This sounds like an excuse to me.

It seems that the SK is a *good* general sport engine made to a price and designed by people who have made some decidedly odd design choices that would seem to be less than optimal.

Like many people however, I think I'll spend the extra $10 and buy something that isn't so quirky or oddball in respect to metalurgy, bore/piston design and porting (and where I don't hear the words "1 in 75" when referring to dud carbs :-)



_____________________________

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(in reply to Ed_Moorman)
       Post #: 303

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/24/2007 6:47:34 AM   
Turk1



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From: Istanbul, TURKEY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: XJet

(and where I don't hear the words "1 in 75" when referring to dud carbs :-)



Hi ANZAC,your mention seems a little exagerated.The engineer was mentioning some sticky barrel problem during daily use,not some malfunctioned products.That sticky barrels were so easy to fix by a very light filing on a certain point.You are right,SK engines are very good sport engines with unbeatable pricing. Such a carb problem is less problematic than faulty design of TT 42 GP type very fine threaded and using only a few of such threads high speed needle assembly problem.

< Message edited by Turk1 -- 7/24/2007 6:51:56 AM >

(in reply to XJet)
       Post #: 304

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/25/2007 5:03:42 AM   
OVER WORKED


 

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XJet “I have to ask why on earth anyone would use a tapered bore on a ringed engine -- it's just not necessary!”
WRONG: taper is used because the temp at the top of the cylinder is higher than the bottom, when at running temp the cylinder becomes straight.
Many air cooled engines use taper, even the Lycoming IO-360 in my Piper.

XJet “One of the big benefits of a ring is that it will expand and contract to seal the bore even when that bore expands more at the top than the bottom due to combustion heat.”
WRONG: The ring is not there to make up for taper, it's job is to seal the cylinder and do it with a lower drag coefficient than an interference fit, plus it can seal from the top of the stroke to the bottom. Too much movement will cause excessive wear in the ring land.

XJet “And there's an example of why it's stupid to taper a bore when you're not using the best materials or machining accuracy.”
WRONG: anybody in Engineering 101 would disagree.

XJet “There are plenty of folks who have actually tried to destroy ABC engines with tapered bores by running them *really* rich (DownUnder might have been one of them from memory) -- but no detectable damage was produced.”
WRONG: The single biggest cause of rod/crank pin failure is four stroking.

XJet “The fact that one in 75 carbs are admitted as being faulty seems to further indicate that these SK motors are not exactly what you'd call "quality" when compared to the likes of their slightly more expensive peers. “
WRONG: the tolerances were too tight and even the slightest imperfection caused a problem, we admitted to it and replaced all the carbs for free.

XJet “Chrome is *so* much harder than cast-iron (the stuff piston rings are usually made from) that it shouldn't make any difference. The ring is the part that does the wearing, not the bore. That's why most ringed engines can be revived by simply fitting a new ring when they start getting down on compression. This sounds like an excuse to me. “
WRONG: the entire reason for honing a cylinder is so the ring wear matches the cylinder ware, it’s a standard practice, and our ring is Chrome Molly not cast iron.

XJet “Like many people however, I think I'll spend the extra $10 and buy something that isn't so quirky or oddball in respect to metalurgy, bore/piston design and porting (and where I don't hear the words "1 in 75" when referring to dud carbs :-) “

I'm always amazed how the people with the least experience with our products have the strongest opinions. We designed these engines with sport flying in mind.
If you think our engines are such junk why are you involved in a thread where everybody seems to like a product you have never used?
Do us all a favor; spend the extra $10 on something that isn’t so “quirky”.

_____________________________

Ray Nano
Kangke/ Super Kraft/ Brison, Tech support/Design team

(in reply to Turk1)
       Post #: 305

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/25/2007 1:10:01 PM   
OUTCAST


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OVER WORKED
I'm always amazed how the people with the least experience with our products have the strongest opinions. We designed these engines with sport flying in mind.
If you think our engines are such junk why are you involved in a thread where everybody seems to like a product you have never used?
Do us all a favor; spend the extra $10 on something that isn’t so “quirky”.


Exceptionally well said!
I’m sure most here agree with you.
Bravo!!


(in reply to OVER WORKED)
       Post #: 306

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/25/2007 1:20:01 PM   
Jim Dines


 

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Ditto

(in reply to OUTCAST)
       Post #: 307

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/25/2007 9:47:51 PM   
XJet


 

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It's funny that neither OS, nor SuperTigre, nor ASP/Magnum, nor Thunder Tiger (nor any that I can think of) other manufacturers of ringed model engines use a tapered bore. I wonder why that is?

Despite this lack of a tapered bore, all these other engines seem to run "just fine" and some even produce far more power than would normally be considered normal for a "sport" engine. Go figure...

From my data, "hard chrome" plating has a hardness of around 59-68 RC, whereas chrome-moly is typically 44-48 (depending on temper). That means the bore is still a *lot* harder than the rings, as I asserted.

I'm not trying to knock the SK engines, they're probably a fine sport motor at a very reasonable price.

I just (still) query some of the claims being made.

And for those who missed it, this is a very interesting thread in respect to just how vulnerable (or not) an ABC tapered-bore engine is to being 4-stroked. It seems that with the *right* design and metalurgy, it's just not an issue. That it *does* seem to be an issue with SK engines begs a question, doesn't it?

However, the ultimate test will soon be underway.

I'm ordering three SK50 engines which will be used in my test of three different types of model engine oil.

I'll break in these engines on a fuel using 20% castor and using the manufacturer's recommendations -- then I'll run them on fuel blended with Klotz Super Techniplate, Morgans Coolpower Pink (synth/castor blend) and Coopers' Plus-c (synth/castor blend).

All three engines will be stripped and inspected before running, after break-in, and at regular intervals during the testing.

This'll give me a good chance to examine the engines and see how well they stand up to extended running while also allowing a "real world" comparison to be drawn between the different lubes.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Jim Dines)
       Post #: 308

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/25/2007 11:01:17 PM   
OUTCAST


 

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You should use OS, or SuperTigre, or ASP/Magnum, or Thunder Tiger, there not as "Quirky"
Shouldn’t you use an engine you are “familiar” with?
Since you already have a clear opinion about SK, your test won’t have much if any credibility.
I think we can all predict the outcome now.

(in reply to XJet)
       Post #: 309

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/26/2007 3:10:47 AM   
XJet


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OUTCAST

You should use OS, or SuperTigre, or ASP/Magnum, or Thunder Tiger, there not as "Quirky"
Shouldn’t you use an engine you are “familiar” with?
Since you already have a clear opinion about SK, your test won’t have much if any credibility.
I think we can all predict the outcome now.


No, as I've already stated -- the SK sounds like a good sport engine at the bottom of the market. For what it is it sounds like good value. If they turn out not to be very not as good as OS or TT then that's to be expected, for the price. Nobody buys a Ford and expects it to perform like a Ferrari.

The very fact that they're so quirky and (by their own admission) more likely to trash a conrod or crankpin if the lube package can't cope with abuse is a very good reason for using them to torture-test moderl model oils.

A really well made engine can tolerate a surprising amount of abuse before it breaks. If the SK (by dint of its tapered bore or whatever) is less able to tolerate such things then even more stress is going to be applied to the oil. If I can get the equivalent of 6-months worth of wear by running an SK on the ragged edge for a couple of gallons then it'll save me a fist-full of time and make for a great oil-test.


_____________________________

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(in reply to OUTCAST)
       Post #: 310

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/26/2007 3:32:46 AM   
TestPilot6


 

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From: San Francisco, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Turk1

quote:

ORIGINAL: XJet

(and where I don't hear the words "1 in 75" when referring to dud carbs :-)



Hi ANZAC,your mention seems a little exagerated.The engineer was mentioning some sticky barrel problem during daily use,not some malfunctioned products.That sticky barrels were so easy to fix by a very light filing on a certain point.You are right,SK engines are very good sport engines with unbeatable pricing. Such a carb problem is less problematic than faulty design of TT 42 GP type very fine threaded and using only a few of such threads high speed needle assembly problem.



Hi, Turk1. Your reference to ANZAC was funny.

I think you are in love with SK engines. So am I. In addition to the smooth characteristics, the price is VERY ATTRACTIVE. But I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who would be bad-mouthing after having a few little troubles. Although I respect Ray Nano, I do believe the manufacturing defects are worse than he thinks.

On the other hand, my experience with the distributor, KangKe, has been EXCELLENT! Their staff are helpful and cordial including overworked Ray Nano.

Simply put, SK doesn't have the engineering and quality control of OS. But the price is attractive. If you have only one engine, the time and effort to understand and deal with the problems of the engine may not save the money spent on less expensive engines. But I have seen more than enough field problems with engines including OS.

I would rather have two SK engines than one OS or four instead of two. It's comforting to know you have a backup, and by then, you are also familiar with their characteristics.

Once you take care of the quirks, SK engines are quite reliable and predictable. It took me a lot more time to familiarize myself with SuperTigre engines. And they are not as predicatable as SK in my opinion.

I would like to mention one of the problems I had with SK engines. I believe Ed Moorman explained the solution. I've drawn a sketch. I hope it would help some people with the same problem. That is the carburetor freezing. Moreover, it typically happens at full throttle.





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(in reply to Turk1)
       Post #: 311

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/26/2007 3:44:42 AM   
TestPilot6


 

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As you can see from the sketch, it doesn't do any good to smooth out the surface of the barrel. I don't think surface finish is a problem with this carb.

you have to go in and chamfer the edge of the groove with a fine file.

Also, I believe this problem occurs with a larger engine such as 90 at full-throttle. The magintude of the vibration deforms the burr. I'd suspect it happens much less often with 50 size engines.

(in reply to TestPilot6)
       Post #: 312

RE: SK ENGINES - 7/26/2007 3:51:43 AM   
Jim Dines


 

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