Peeved about fuel labeling?

Peeved about fuel labeling? (Full Version)

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Flight Risk -> Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/8/2006 8:43:07 PM)
Is it just me, or is anyone else frustrated with the way glow fuels are labeled (specifically for planes)? In the store there seems to be about 5-6 brands, and within those brands can be 5 or 6 fuels. Some bottles have stickers with the nitro percent which you hope have been put on the right bottle. Most do not give the oil percent and simply say 2 stroke, 4 stroke, or 2 and 4 stroke. Some are castor synthetic blends, but what is the ratio and percentage. Often if there is information it is tiny print. I wish there was a set labeling system which would give all the needed info in big numbers (such as fertilizer, 10-30-20 or whatever). I generally fly a combination of 2 and 4 strokes and pick up a 15% syn/castor blend, but they rarely state the oil percent. And what’s with the green or pink color? I’ve heard that green is for 4 strokes as it is total synthetic, but not always. Last time I was looking for fuel I spent at least 15 min. trying to figure out all the labeling. I know I should just find a brand and stick to it, but after all these years I still haven’t found it. Then I’ll read something that all engines need castor, but not all castor is good.[X(] ARRGGHHH!!! I've thought it is best to buy a brand like Magnum or Cool Power, but they don't really tell you you what's in there, and with the cost of fuels jumping I am looking at prices more. I guess I see why some of you mix you own. Rod S

carrellh -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/8/2006 10:45:31 PM)
A good number of the fuel companies put the contents on their web sites. If they don't you can always call and ask. If they say it's a "secret" you have to decide for yourself whether you trust them to put in enough oil to protect your engine. Definitely don't make any decision based on the color of the dye they use. One brand's green might be equal to another brand's pink or blue. You specifically mentioned Magnum and Cool Power. Magnum does not put much info on the web but I have been happy with their 'premium sport fuel' in 10% and 15% nitro with all synthetic oil. Cool Power puts all of the numbers on the web. http://www.morganfuel.com/

RaceCity -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/9/2006 4:47:42 AM)
The average purchaser doesn't demand this information so it's not there. Go to your local flying field and ask a few people if they know what kind of oil they're using, and what percentage they recommend. I'd wager most don't know, and the rest couldn't tell you. "Price" and "How much Nitro" are the only two things that matter to the average customer. My feeling is that if the data isn't on the bottle....the bottle stays on the shelf. ESPECIALLY if it's green. Sure...you can make a phone call to the mfr, or log onto a website, but why should you have to???

wjvail -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/9/2006 7:31:48 PM)
Since I mix a little fuel for the local area I find I'm torn with this labeling issue. I find that most people THINK they know what they want in fuel but in reality would be very much happier with something else. Many modelers are under the mistaken belief that more oil and more nitro are better. Many believe that because the instructions that come with their engine says they should use fuel with 18-20% oil, that that is the BEST choice. In short, I'm inclined not to put what's in it because many folks don't really know what they want in their fuel and only want what the local "expert" recommends. With that said, if you ask me I'll tell you what's in it... but in the end, do you REALLY KNOW what you want? Here is a link to a thread on another forum: http://runryder.com/helicopter/t161384p1/?highlight=wjvail Bill Vail

Flight Risk -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/9/2006 8:57:22 PM)
That Morgan site had some good info. Now I'm getting more confused. If a fuel is working then go ahead and get it? But it would still be nice to know that a castor/syn blend wasn't 50/50, or that it wasn't meant for cars and is 12%. Not all fuels even say what they are for. This summer I have been flying a biplane with a cowled OS FS.61 engine which overheats in 5 min. no matter how many holes I cut in the cowl, so I've been flying it cowlless. If I knew how much oil was already in the fuel I might try to adjust the amount and see if there was a difference. Basically, I just like to know what I'm getting. If it says 16% or 18% I would probably get it. If it says 14% or 20% I may try it with certain engines. Oh well! Rod S

wjvail -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/9/2006 10:56:25 PM)
Rod.. Your questions are not out of line. If your goal is just to fly, then buy some fuel and burn some. On the other hand this is a hobby and I, more than most, have integrated fuel, mixing fuel, running fuel, testing different fuels and in general, hobbying with fuel as a big part of my modeling. It has been enormously enjoyable and equally educational. You have a right to enjoy this "subpart" of this hobby as I have and as others do. You have a right to test fuels with more or less oil, nitro, castor, synthetic and find what works for you and to do that, you need to know what your buying. If you wish to include experimenting with fuels as part of your hobby then seek fuels that publish what's in them. If you wish to fly, buy some WildCat/Morgans/Sig/Powermaster/RedMax/Byrons/etc. and fly.... One thing you said that I find alarming is that some fuels are not labeled with their intended use. As I mentioned, I mix a little fuel for the local folks. There is a large difference in the Car fuel, 4-C, 2-C, control line and Heli blends. I would NOT run the 25 car fuel in a heli! The control line stunt fuel would be a very poor choice in a car. The 2-cylcle fuel has too much oil and castor and not enough nitro for optimal 4-cycle performance. You have to know what the fuel was formulated for. If the jug just says "Fuel" and nothing more, I'd recommend keep looking. If on the other hand it says WildCat (or any number of other fuel blenders) 20% Four Stroke fuel you can be sure it will work for your application. Hope this helps. Bill Vail

bentgear -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/9/2006 11:06:44 PM)
Bill, keep making it just like you are doing now and I'll keep using it.......Just don't make it purple, flaming pink or black and all will be well. It needs have over 6 % oil and less than 18% with a nitro content between 10 and 30%. Oh, did I mention that I like a little castor, not too much, just the right amount. [:D] All joking aside, Bill does make some good fuel. Ed M.

hobbynutt -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/10/2006 12:45:29 AM)
[;)]Labels on fuel? Yeah, it can be tricky. The plainest I have run across have been on "BYRON Fuel" jugs. They seem to have whatever mix/use, you could want. The sticker will pretty much tell all you need to know. I burn alot of "juice", and found "TOWER SPORT 10%" to be useable in both my 2 and 4 strokes, at 3000' alt. I fly 5 days a week, retirement is GREAT!

loughbd -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/10/2006 1:10:24 AM)
Everyone complicates the issue. Most name brand fuels work just fine. You can always find someone that will swear BY any given fuel and someone who will swear AT any given fuel. I use 10% nitro, 20% castor oil in every glow engine I use except my Tartan's that use straight methanol and 8% castor oil

Rcpilot -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/10/2006 2:53:49 AM)
I run Omega 5% in all my glow engines. I only use 2-stroke engines. It's 17% oil. 70% synthetic and 30% castor.

loughbd -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/10/2006 7:54:01 PM)
And it works fine doesn't it? Here's what I'vre been doing lately/ I have about 20 gallons of Hobby Shack 10% nitro 20% castor fuel and I acquired 15 gallons of Powermaster 15% nitro, 18% castor/synthetic oil. I mix it 50/50 and end up with 12.5% nitro, 19% castor/synthetic oil which is mostly castor oil. Run it in all my glow engines except the Tartans which use straight methanol and 8% castor.

wjvail -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/10/2006 11:50:41 PM)
Hey Ed... I didn't know you were here! Good to hear from you. Thanks for the complement on the fuel. As you know, and others I've talked to know, I never set out to sell fuel. It's just a hobby within a hobby; still, it's nice to hear other like it. As I've said in this thread and many other places, it's OK to say you would rather run brand X. I'm always open to feedback, good or otherwise. It does make it easier to spend the time to mix it when others seem to like it. Bill Vail

Ed Cregger -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/15/2006 5:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wjvail Since I mix a little fuel for the local area I find I'm torn with this labeling issue. I find that most people THINK they know what they want in fuel but in reality would be very much happier with something else. Many modelers are under the mistaken belief that more oil and more nitro are better. Many believe that because the instructions that come with their engine says they should use fuel with 18-20% oil, that that is the BEST choice. In short, I'm inclined not to put what's in it because many folks don't really know what they want in their fuel and only want what the local "expert" recommends. With that said, if you ask me I'll tell you what's in it... but in the end, do you REALLY KNOW what you want? Here is a link to a thread on another forum: http://runryder.com/helicopter/t161384p1/?highlight=wjvail Bill Vail ---------------- Now who am I going to trust? Me, who has been flying glow engines since the late Fifties (doesn't mean I'm right), or some guy I don't really know that doesn't list the ingredients in his fuel? It is possible that you know far more about fuel and what I need, but how will I know that? I won't, so, in the end, I'll fall back to burning fuels that I have experience with. No offense intended, but to me, you're just another local expert that you seem to hold in low regard. Me too, by the way. I'm the only local expert I trust until someone convinces me otherwise. Oh, another point. Some of the distributors of engines in this country remove the original factory owner's manual and replace it with their own, which are often at odds with the manufacturer's instructions regarding oil type/content and recommended nitro content. Who do you trust?

Sport_Pilot -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/15/2006 6:48:55 PM)
quote: Oh, another point. Some of the distributors of engines in this country remove the original factory owner's manual and replace it with their own, which are often at odds with the manufacturer's instructions regarding oil type/content and recommended nitro content. Who do you trust? And sometime an American hobbiest / national expert stands in for the engineer who designed the engine who speaks for the company when the user asks questions, or has a problem. Not that the national expert isn't good. Bax for example is very good, and even fellow engineers can disagree. But often the distributer must pay for the damaged repaired engines, the manufacture sells to them at a huge discount to even their discounted retail price. Even the engineer cannot accurately predict the percent of returns on a new product.

wjvail -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/15/2006 7:30:39 PM)
quote: ... in the end, I'll fall back to burning fuels that I have experience with. No offense intended, but to me, you're just another local expert that you seem to hold in low regard. Me too, by the way. I'm the only local expert I trust until someone convinces me otherwise. Artisan... Absolutely no offense taken. In fact, I think we are making the exact same point. That is, if you have something you've been using, then use it. You don't need me, the local expert, a product rep or anyone else. If someone shows up at the field and is having fun with some fuel or engine or radio or whatever, they clearly don't need me (or you, or anyone else) to tell them they aren't doing it right. You are completely correct in that to you, I am just another local expert and with your experience, you don't need me telling you how to fly your models. Did you read my post that I linked too? As for holding the local expert in low reguard... That is too broad a statement to put my name on. I will say the some of my local experts are not the people you want to be taking advice from (adjust opinion to taste). That says nothing about other folks and other clubs. How could I hold in low regard such a large and diverse group? Bill Vail

loughbd -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/15/2006 7:52:51 PM)
I tend to listen more closely to guys that have been doing this for a number of years and probably have a heck of a lot more experiance. I've been modeling for over 50 years and still don't know everything about all phases of the HOBBY. Electrics??? I'm in the dark. Indoor rubber power?? No clue. Control line?? Haven't been doing that since the early 70's. Still do it but with 40 year old equipment that I used back then. As far as fuel goes?? I listen and read what the real experts have to say, read what the engine manufacturers recommend, and based on what I've seen, heard, and experianced make a decision. The fuel I use is one that I've used for years. It provides exellent power and reliability and little to no corrosion. Based on those facts, it's all I use. What I use is Hobby Shack's old White Lightning. The ingredients were printed right on the plastic jug. 70% methanol, 10% nitromethane and 20% castor oil. I bought 50 gallons of it several years ago when it was still available and have about 12 gallons left. I acquired 15 Gallons of powermaster 15% nitro fuel and now mix them 50/50. End up with 12.5 % nitro and mostly castor oil lube. Works fine and I never get rust. Why use anything else? Oh, Powermaster made H Shack's fuel. A couple paragraphs were removed by moderator...

Ed Cregger -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/16/2006 10:17:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot quote: Oh, another point. Some of the distributors of engines in this country remove the original factory owner's manual and replace it with their own, which are often at odds with the manufacturer's instructions regarding oil type/content and recommended nitro content. Who do you trust? And sometime an American hobbiest / national expert stands in for the engineer who designed the engine who speaks for the company when the user asks questions, or has a problem. Not that the national expert isn't good. Bax for example is very good, and even fellow engineers can disagree. But often the distributer must pay for the damaged repaired engines, the manufacture sells to them at a huge discount to even their discounted retail price. Even the engineer cannot accurately predict the percent of returns on a new product. ------------- I agree with you that this is the reason why importers substitute their own instructions for those of the manufacturers. The importer buys the engines cheap with the agreement that they handle all warranty work out-of-pocket. Still, to those that believe in the manufacturer's more than the distributor, this can be disturbing.

Ed Cregger -> RE: Peeved about fuel labeling? (8/16/2006 10:20:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wjvail quote: ... in the end, I'll fall back to burning fuels that I have experience with. No offense intended, but to me, you're just another local expert that you seem to hold in low regard. Me too, by the way. I'm the only local expert I trust until someone convinces me otherwise. Artisan... Absolutely no offense taken. In fact, I think we are making the exact same point. That is, if you have something you've been using, then use it. You don't need me, the local expert, a product rep or anyone else. If someone shows up at the field and is having fun with some fuel or engine or radio or whatever, they clearly don't need me (or you, or anyone else) to tell them they aren't doing it right. You are completely correct in that to you, I am just another local expert and with your experience, you don't need me telling you how to fly your models. Did you read my post that I linked too? As for holding the local expert in low reguard... That is too broad a statement to put my name on. I will say the some of my local experts are not the people you want to be taking advice from (adjust opinion to taste). That says nothing about other folks and other clubs. How could I hold in low regard such a large and diverse group? Bill Vail --------------- Thanks, Bill. I couldn't seem to get that arrogant tone out of my post. Made the mistake of helping unload a 350 lbs. motor scooter from a pickup bed the day before. Sometimes I forget how old I am and "over commit". <G> Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. Glad you agree.

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