RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread
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RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 4/30/2007 3:33:26 PM

johnpcunningham

Posts: 238
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

Swift 427,

Couple thoughts or ideas that I came into....

When I started buying LiPOs, it became quickly evident that my decision of which brand became critical.

LIPOS need the following:
1) The battery itself
2) Connectors
3) A LIPO Charger
4) A balancer

If you buy the 2100Mha Parkzone Lipo Charger combo, that is about the cheapest I have seen for that size of battery. Cost is around $90 for the 2200mAh 3S Li-Po and Battery w/Charger (ParkZone PKZ1050)

I went with Thunderpower 2100MHa. This is the cost breakdown:
1) Battery $65
2) TP-205V Thunder Power Cell Balancer $60
3) Great Planes Electrifly Triton2 DC Computer Charger $119
4) Connectors - $25

That is a lot of cost for one plane. Since I knew I was going to grow into this hobby I wanted to plan ahead and not buy multiple chargers as time went along. Also, the Parkzone charger only works with the Parzone batteries - due to the balancer connector. The Triton Charger works with all NiMh, NiCD, Pb, and Lipo. It can also cycle the batteries and provide better and more consistant charges than those plastic box chargers from parkzone/Hobbyzone.

All Lipos seem to have their own special connector for a balancer and the balance charge is a must! The cells will diverge after time if all you do is charge them and not balance them. The one plus to the Parkzone chargers is that the charger is a balnacer/charger built into one. The Triton charger does not have a balancer - You have to buy that separately. Also, You can charge the Parkzone battery on the Triton charger, but you can't balance it. Some other brand batteries do provide some standards - like a "thunder power" balancer connector. But most of them want you to purchase their own balancer.

Oh - for those who may not know about balancers - it is a way to keep all of the LIPO cells at a voltage that is within ~0.05 volts of each other. Over time, charging makes the cells become out of balance and the battery will not hold a full charge. The Parkzone charger setup charges through the balancer and balances at the same time. The Triton setup I mentioned connects the battery directly to the charger and you plug in the balancer on the other balancer pins. The battery charge does not pass throug the balancer. The balancer sort of moniters the voltage and adjusts the charge going to each battery. There is a circuit board with a microcontroller in each LiPo battery that is more than 1 cell (i.e 3S)

-------------------------------------
I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here - just offering ideas. All in all, if someone wants more CHEAP power for their SWIFT, I think the 10.8 NiMh is the way to go for $28-ish. That is all you have to buy - no added costs. LIPOs clearly provide more power and are much much lighter, but do have additional costs that one must consider. That's it - keep on flying.

JC

< Message edited by johnpcunningham -- 4/30/2007 10:40:53 PM >

(in reply to tam popo)

Post #: 226

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 12:31:44 AM

tam popo

Posts: 3105
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: glasgow, , UNITED KINGDOM
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John, I tried the 10.8 NIMh and it did make an improvement, just. Revs were up on standard prop obviously so I changed to a prop adapter and the max size of prop (forgot which size) - thrust was improved a bit but not as much as I expected. Yeah, it flew but no fast climb, jsu low slow flybys and it took ages to gain decent height. Put the same battery into Zagi with b/less and the improvement in the Zagi was great. Found out a week later that my charger wasn't charging to full extent on 10.8V (8.4V OK). Its the charger, mine is a trickle charger on house mains with final top up on route to field in car using H/zone in-car thing. Fine for 8.4 and even 9.6 but the 10.8 needs a real kick up the Khyber Pass to get the best from it. Just finalising my shopping list for tinternet buying from Robotbirds in UK - total £250!!! 2 Hyperion b/less, 2 Lipos/charger, TX?RX,servos, esc the full monty. Gettin new digital camera soon for holidays so will post pics of planes and sights but not me (don't want to frighten the kids!!!). Very pleased with Predator UAV project total cost £10 parts etc. Byee for now. Awake for anothr 3 hours.

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RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 12:43:33 AM

Swift427

Posts: 485
Joined: 3/15/2007
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Status: offline

John,

You aren't stepping on my toes. I really appreciate you sharing the path you're taking. We all learn from each other and then decide what path works best for our own particular needs.

As for me I wouldn't recommend a 10.8V NiMH. IMO, it's too heavy and too big for the Swift cockpit. Why pay $28 for a 10.8V NiMH 1000mAh when you can buy a 11.1V 2000mAh LiPo with more power and flying time for $24. LiPo is the way to Go. Choosing the right LiPo for the Swift's long can 400 brushed motor, or one of three other similar motor choices available ($10.44 to $15.90) has been the conundrum. HobbyZone--ParkZone recommended using the 3S 2200mAh-20C Li-Po that comes with the Stryker 27C, but that is overkill--way too much battery(cost and length) for a long can Speed 400 brushed motor in the Swift (or the Stryker 27B or the Spitfire)

Here's part of the problem. Everyone is going toward brushless and wants speed which means the majority of Li-Po batteries being manufactured today are 15C and 20C capable of a continuous discharge and burst that a long can Speed 400 brushed motor would never be able to use. The tech guy at HZ told me that 10C & 8C (especially 8C) LiPo batteries are being dumped by manufacturers as they are older batteries with an older technology. I later found out that he was just saying this to try to convince me to spend the extra money on an expensive 2200mAh-20C battery that isn't practical for the Swift and its long can 400 brushed motor. Just because there isn't near the need for 8C and 10C LiPo batteries doesn't mean they have stopped manufacturing them. For example Great Planes sells an 3S 11.1V 1500mAh 8C LiPo (GPMP 0831) for $42.99. Common Sense RC sells a 3S 11.1V 2000mAh 8C LiPo (#3S2000-8C) for $24.00 or a pack of 2 for $46.00

I have been told that a long can Speed 400 Graupner brushed motor is engineered/designed to handle up to 13V. At 12V it draws 14 amps(171 watts) when under a full load RPM of 14.7k with a 6x4 prop. I suspect that this is the same brushed motor used in the Spitfire and may be close to the same motor that comes in the Swift. In other words 11.1V going to the long can Swift 400 motor should not cause it to overheat unless you are racing it wide open all the time at its full load RPM. The long can 400 is designed to handle either the 6.5x3 Challenger prop or the 6x4 Swift prop with occasional bursts at full load RPM. The Prop Load Factor of each propeller is close enough to have almost identical PLFs.

So, an 3S 11,1V 2000mAh 8C for $24(2 for $46) would be about a perfect match made in heaven for the Swift with some room to spare. It is rated as having a continuous discharge rate of 16 amps with 24 amp bursts and at 2000mAh it will extend the flying time beyond any NiMH as the 10.8V NiMH is only rated at 1000mAh. So, you can see that even this battery may have more power then a long can Speed 400 brushed motor would ever need in a motorized aileron glider like the Swift. Not everyone that buys a Swift wants to turn it into a hotliner that goes 60+ mph so an 8C LiPo should do just fine.

< Message edited by Swift427 -- 5/1/2007 12:50:20 AM >

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Post #: 228

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 1:03:27 AM

tam popo

Posts: 3105
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: glasgow, , UNITED KINGDOM
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Good evening Mr Swift. Just seen your last mail while I finalise my shopping list for Lipos. I've been following H/zone recommendations of the 2200MaH 11.1 for my Stryker and swift. I always thought this was "overkill" for my needs. The motors are Swift stock and Hyperion (3000Krpm, max current 11A-18A max, this is 300 short class b/less inrunner). I don't want pure speed just "sport" flying and good climb rate. I Think I could go with 1800maH 11.2 10C with ballancer which suit swift, Stryker, Zagi and new home-built Predataor UAV. Wot do you think - any other suggestions, and John, if your still there just jump in Pal. Thanks!!!

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Post #: 229

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 1:59:59 AM

Swift427

Posts: 485
Joined: 3/15/2007
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnpcunningham
LIPOS need the following:
1) The battery itself
2) Connectors
3) A LIPO Charger
4) A balancer

JC

FIRST: The Common Sense RC 3S 11.1V 2000mAh 8C LiPo sells for $24 or 2 for $46. They haven't yet reversed the polarity on this particular LiPo to satisfy E-flite flyers, so they are going to send me free of charge the correct polarity reversing cable. They already have reversed the polarity (V2 conversion) on both the 1650mAh 8C and the 1250mAh 8C LiPo. What this means is that the red wire is now on the correct side of the 4-pin connector that does fit into the $30 ParkZone PKZ1050 Variable Rate LiPo Charger balancing connection port. So the PKZ1050 can be used to charge these Common Sense RC 8C LiPo batteries.

SECOND: The 1250mAh 8C and 1650mAh 8C are at the fringe or on the border as far as getting the most full load rpms out of the long can Speed 400 brushed motor. the 1250mAh is rated at a continuous discharge rate of 10 amps with 15 amp bursts and the 1650mAh is not to exceed a continuous discharge rate of 13 amps. This is explained further in Common Sense RCs "Real Flight Racing" rating for their Li-Poly batteries. Possibly most important is the extended flying time so for $24 the 2000mAh Li-Poly seems like a bargain plus there is a little more extra cushion in burst rated amperage to make sure I get the most power/speed out of the long can 400 brushed motor. So, even though Common Sense RC sells a 1650mAh 10C and 2000mAh 10C I see no need to spend the extra money on my Swith with its brushed motor that only draws 14 amps at 12V under a full load rpm of 14.7K with a 6x4 prop. In other words my Swift with its brushed motor doesn't have any use for the extra oomph from a 2000mAh 10C that can deliver with up to 20 amps of continuous discharge with 30 amp bursts. So, you get the idea of the gross overkill and expense of putting a PKZ1030 2200mAh 20C LiPo in a Swift that lists for $75.99.

THIRD: The Tamiya connector is probably one of the worst connectors used in model airplanes. It is prone to shorting or not always making good contact. It is recommended by HZ/PZ that the existing Tamiya connector be removed/not used when converting to a Li-Poly battery. So, you will need to spend at least $4 for a male and female Deans Ultra connector(shrink tubing and solder) which is the preferred connector among serious flyers.

FOURTH: Although the PKZ1050 at $30 is not the Cream-of-the-Crop in Li-Po chargers; it is good enough for getting started converting the Swift to Li-Poly power. If the PKZ1050 Variable Rate Charger with cell balancing is good enough for the new Stryker 27C, with its expensive $75.99 2200mAh 20C Li-Poly; it certainly should be good enough for converting the Swift to less expensive 8C Li-Poly power.

FIFTH: $24 for a 3S 11.1.1V 2000mAh 8C Li-Poly with free polarity reversing cable for balance charging if you order a pack of 2 for $46. Including shipping comes to $53.45. PKZ1050 costs $29.99, but I already have one that came with Stryker 27C. Total cost to convert my Swift to accept a much needed Li-Poly upgrade including not one but two 2000mAh Li-Poly batteries, Deans Ultra connectors and miscellaneous is $60 if you use the existing Swift motor. I also purchased a Spitfire motor for $10.44 and a Graupner for $15.90 to compare as I put my Swift motor in my Challenger which was an improvement.

All these battery choices is new to me so as a novice I am no expert. I make mistakes so would really appreciate your take on all this. Does it make sense to you? What am I overlooking or missing?

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Post #: 230

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 2:58:47 AM

Swift427

Posts: 485
Joined: 3/15/2007
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tam popo
I don't want pure speed just "sport" flying and good climb rate. I Think I could go with 1800maH 11.2 10C with ballancer

FIRST: The thinking by HZ/PZ in spending the money to squeeze a powerful 2200mAh 20C Li-Poly in the 'brushed' Swift is because they think we'll soon lose interest in the Swift and then be glad we have such a mighty Li-Po for the zippy brushless powered craft that we will eventually buy. Also, I don't know if they really sell any other Li-Po batteries that would be a better match for a 'brushed' Swift.

SECOND: At age 62 the Swift is my first powered model airplane. I will fly it as long as possible and will make improvements, etc. I may shorten the beam 2-3 inches as I become more skilled, but I would never shorten the wings. I would never convert my Swift to brushless or turn it into a hotliner. I would hope 5 years from now I will still enjoy flying my Swift. SO, for me the challenge is to find the perfect Li-Po match for my 'brushed' Swift and NOT concern myself about buying more Li-Po then I need with the thinking that someday it will have to be able to power a racer or sport aerobatic plane.

THIRD: One thing I've learned is that my Swift doesn't need a Li-Po longer then 3.6," but what I don't know is if some Li-Po batteries are over-priced or if some are bargain priced because they just won't last as long. For example the Great Planes GPMP 0831 is a 3S 11.1V 1500mAh 8C that sells for $42.99. Then there is the Common Sense RC 3S 11.1V 2000mAh 8C that sells for $24.00. Is there something else going on here and its the old story that you get what you pay for, or is one made in Canada and the other in China? Who wouldn't pick a 2000mAh over a 1500mAh, and yet the 1500mAh cost considerably more--WHY? The Great Planes comes with a Deans Ultra, but I don't mind soldering a Deans Ultra on the Common Sense. I bought a Great Planes (Electrifly) BP910 for $35 at the local hobby store. It is a 3S 11.1V 910mAh 15C. It will be interesting to compare the flying time and overall life of this battery to the Common Sense 11.1V 2000mAh 8C.

FOURTH: Lets say that the Swift ESC and brushed motor can take as much juice as you can give it (16 amps continuous and 24 amp bursts) with a 10C or 15C Li-Po. So, you could climb straight up and go faster, but you'd be burning out the motor every week. So, it does seem that an 11.1V 8C Li-Po is better then a 11.1V 10C in that the motor will last longer while still performing up to its potential. IF, IF, IF the Common Sense RC 3S 11.1V 2000mAh 8C is everything you'd expect for quality and durability for a long life with reasonable care then it certainly seems like the best deal/bargain for the money when married to a 'brushed' Swift whose primary use is aileron training and fun flying at a leisurely pace.

< Message edited by Swift427 -- 5/1/2007 3:01:54 AM >

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Post #: 231

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 4:36:03 AM

johnpcunningham

Posts: 238
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

I think I'm spending a lot of money now to be cheap later

I've got 4 Thunderpower 11.1v 2200mam batteries so that I can run them in the F27C Stryker, P51, Spitfire, and sometimes the Swift. One charger, one balancer, and one typr of battery for all. I may go up or down in size but I suggest staying with one brand of battery with the same balance connector. I don't think the 2200mah batteries are overkill in terms of power, but they are a tighter fit in the SWIFT canopy.

I hardly ever run the LIPOs in my SWIFT since I went to brushless. I always run the 8.6 V and 9.6 MiMh in it and the power is perfect.

As for my Spitfire, if I run the LiPO in it, it tends to porpoise up and down on throttle up/down. When I go back to the 10.8v NiMh – it flies fine. The P51 can fly either and is not affected by the battery weight. CG remains about the same.

Anyway, you see where I’m going. Buy now but look ahead of where you may be growing in the hobby. I like the smaller LiPO setup for sure but if I only had the SWIFT and then purchased the Stryker or P51 later, I think I would have wished I got the bigger LiPOs instead.

I have one of the Parkzone LiPO charges if anyone wants it. Rarely used. Simply cover the shipping charges and it is yours. I’m guessing $5 or less for shipping

-------------------Back to the Swift-----------------------------
That being said, I have had nothing but problems out of my two Swifts. Only one good flight out of many sorties. That was a great day indeed – running a brushless and plenty of power. But the plane always seems to be unstable in the air and always acts up – before and after the brushless change. Twitches, loses power, always something. I keep trying to keep this plane in the air but the Pakzone warbirds are easier to keep in the air. I think the perfect jump is to go from the Challenger to the warbirds for new pilots.

The Swift seems too clumsy in the air in my opinion. I saw Ronico’s video and my own brushless flights in the SWIFT looked similar. But all in all, it flies like a faster, unstable Challenger to some degree

I did some work on it tonite – moved the ESC, tightened everything up and changed RX out for a different one. Maybe, just maybe, my faith in this bird will be restored…..again.
Otherwise, I got a bunch of wings and tails to sell on EBAY.

--------------------------------

JC

< Message edited by johnpcunningham -- 5/10/2007 2:13:13 PM >

(in reply to Swift427)

Post #: 232

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 9:15:56 AM

tam popo

Posts: 3105
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: glasgow, , UNITED KINGDOM
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Thanks guys, you just confirmed my inner thoughts- nice plane, shame about the power. This swift is going to the back of the hanger in case any or all of my 6 planes are "kaput". It was an expensive lesson in only time and effort, I thought it was my flying/trimming skills at fault but now realise there are shortcomings with the bird. If only it could fly out of the box like the f27b (you know what I mean John). There's nothng better than ROG's but this bird was reluctant - score 2 good rises, countless attempts. I just love flying but this bird kept me repairing too many times. RIP Mr Swift, till another day. Today is not your day, and tomorrow's not looking too good either!!!

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Post #: 233

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 1:03:18 PM

tam popo

Posts: 3105
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: glasgow, , UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline

Hiya guys. Just been working out power combinations (using MotorCalc website, free 30 days) for Predator and swift - amazing! Predator will fly 10 minutes (20 minutes on some combinations) on any combination battery (NimH/Lipo) and motor but Permax and Robbe 400 brushed come out near top every time. Swift should have 400 fitted instead of so-called 480. Tell me you have been using MotorCalc please"""

Predator coming in at 12oz. (foam/bit of balsa). Weight is everyones enemy - just look at Swift and my waistline!!!!

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Born to fly and loose my postings on RCU......

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Post #: 234

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 1:11:26 PM

hsv265

Posts: 3
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atwell, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline

Hi all,
been reading through this thread as I have come to the conclusion after 4 flights with the Swift that it (like most HZ planes) needs more grunt. Mine will ROG no probs but hits a brick wall when faced into a head wind. I have had the Scout, Freedom, Xtreme & love my latest bird the Swift, being able to switch to D/R & really bank it over & perform rolls is awesome

So I'm off to buy the Parkzone P51D/Spitfire 400 motor & 2 lipos & prob the Swallow 2 (AC/DC) Charger & see how she goes.
I would also love to go b/less, so will contact you John in regards to purchasing a EZ ESC from you.

Cheers
Justin
Western Australia

(in reply to tam popo)

Post #: 235

RE: Official Aerobird Swift Thread - 5/1/2007 6:42:47 PM

johnpcunningham

Posts: 238
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

Hi hsv265,

This is the link for a pic and instruction guide...if you are interested.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5735217/tm.htm

JC

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Post #: 236

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