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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 9/5/2006 5:40:33 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

The reason the Mooney Porsche wasn't successful was because it was a lot of money for a conversion that provided very little, if any, performance increase.


Actually it was business. Mooney got Porsche to pay for a good part of the certification of a new streached Mooney and when Mooney met the terms of the contract, and the window of opportunity was there they axed Porche. Thus getting rid of any future problems with debuging the engine. The engine actually had good performance with maybe 10 or so HP over the engine they replaced it with. Porsche projected good TBO, but I suspect Mooney was afraid they would not be able to meet that, or that their would be problems with the reduction drive down the road. Nevermind that this was not borne out with the testing. Were some problems with the fuel injection as I recall.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 12/30/2006 12:41:00 AM   
hardtop351


 

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just been briefly readin this forum.......yes i would buy and build a van's rv-7. do any of you remember the guy that flew solo around the world both directions???...he is an aussie guy named john johanson. and he did this feat in a van's rv-4. i have worked on this plane and i know its a good solid and well designed airframe.

tell your soon-to-be-wife that its safer to fly than to drive a car. people who dwell on statistics about crashes etc are intensely morbid and need to get out more and have a good time.

just my 10 cents worth

cheers
craig

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 12/30/2006 2:11:57 AM   
2fast


 

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Why would you want to fly in a home designed, home built, home maintained aircraft? This is YOUR LIFE and your wife's LIFE we are talking about. There are plenty of proven safe certificated GA aircraft out there to choose from, many are used and affordable.

Don't know about you, but if it's my wife and family in the plane I want something at least as safe as the airlines. To me that means a production certificated aircraft, professionally maintained and solid regular training for myself, both VFR and IFR. If I can't afford to do it this way then I'll just ride the "big iron".

Do you really want the last thing you hear on this earth to be the screams of your family after your homebuilt beauty comes apart or it flat gets away from you?

Anyone remember John Denver?

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 12/30/2006 4:00:35 PM   
TFF


 

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As an aircraft mechanic for the airlines and one who works on small planes on the side for flying privlages, I have seen many diffrent aircraft and how they are made. I have time( about 20-40 hours in each except the Cessna at 60) in the ubiuotious C-150, Grumman Cheeta, 68' Mooney updated at the factory to new specks, Enstrom helicopters F28a and F280FX. I have been lucky to get multiple rides in an Aircam, Cirrus 22 and RV8. The Cirrus and Mooney are great for traveling, the 150 and Cheeta are fun to knock around in. Aircam and helli are great for low tree top sight seeing and landing on river banks.
The RV8 is better.
The RV8 was so solid. It flew like a rc pattern plane.
I know there are better aerobatic planes out there, but i think anyone could fly an rv if they can fly a medium performance plane.
Most homebuilts are enginnerred to certified standards or better, and are built with more care than certified. Look at a new C-172 and an old. Look at the rivits in a row and compaire with the old one. The old straight as an arrow; the new wiggle around and sometimes miss the ribs! Cirrus gets by on its stall certification by saying you are not allowed too and have the parachute in case. Most plane crashes are stupid pilots flying their plane out of its entended envelope. One night late, I saw a Lear 45 take off and do a roll; at the rc field a pitts model 12 came over did some rolls. one set he extended it to thee rolls almost flew into the trees that line the back side when he washed out. That is what is dangerous, not what the plane is.

Tom

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/3/2007 7:44:30 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

Don't know about you, but if it's my wife and family in the plane I want something at least as safe as the airlines. To me that means a production certificated aircraft, professionally maintained and solid regular training for myself, both VFR and IFR.


Many homebuilt planes are as safe as a certified plane, you can still have a professional maintain them as well. Most use certified engines. None including certified aircraft are as safe as an airline, or even as safe as an automobile.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/3/2007 7:47:19 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

tell your soon-to-be-wife that its safer to fly than to drive a car.



Actually its the other way around. Proven many times. I suggest you by a copy of aviation consumer, then look up back issues.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/3/2007 9:39:03 PM   
Ed Toner


 

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Perhaps it is the typical pilot of Homebuilts. Are these expert craftsmen also expert pilots? I think an examination of the pilots experience level, type and quality of training he recieved, etc. might be revealing.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/7/2007 10:29:02 AM   
Kweasel


 

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Homebuilts in general do require a greater level of knowlege and skill than factory planes do. Some designs are very common kits that are easy to build and fly and are as safe as an FAA certified aircraft. Others require a level of skill to build and fly that very few people possess. Airplanes are much like motorcycles, they can both kill you very quickly. You should only operate them if its something you have to do and for no other reason.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/10/2007 3:53:16 PM   
lucien


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2fast

Why would you want to fly in a home designed, home built, home maintained aircraft? This is YOUR LIFE and your wife's LIFE we are talking about. There are plenty of proven safe certificated GA aircraft out there to choose from, many are used and affordable.

Don't know about you, but if it's my wife and family in the plane I want something at least as safe as the airlines. To me that means a production certificated aircraft, professionally maintained and solid regular training for myself, both VFR and IFR. If I can't afford to do it this way then I'll just ride the "big iron".

Do you really want the last thing you hear on this earth to be the screams of your family after your homebuilt beauty comes apart or it flat gets away from you?

Anyone remember John Denver?


The best way to summarize a response to this is to simply state that the experimental category exists in the FARs for a good reason.
What I've found over the years flying homebuilts is:

- For certificated aircraft, the purchase price is the cheapest part with only rare exceptions. This puts them out of reach for a huge number of would-be pilots. This isn't typically the case for homebuilts, particularly with proven designs like the RV and light a/c like the Rans, Kolb and even the humble quicksilvers. These planes typically have a lower operating cost, mostly because parts/labor does NOT have to be yellow-tagged and paperworked to death. Even resale value is beginning to come up for the more popular designs like the RV and the Rans.

- The familiarity with the aircraft that comes from building it one's self is a HUGE safety advantage. Even in case of 2nd-hand ownership, the freedom to do one's own maintenance is an equally large safety advantage. If you want your butt looked after, it's generally best done by one's self. Certificated a/c _require_ that someone else (an AnP) look after your butt, a not-good compromise in many cases.
If you don't know what you're doing, FAA has AC 43.13 that'll show you the proper building/maintenance techniques for practically anything in your plane, the manufacturer can show you the rest.

- The kits available on the market now are nothing like the scratch-built stuff we used to have to deal with in days past. The Rans for example are simply superbly designed and executed kits that leave virtually no stone unturned. Same with the RV, a very proven and popular design. Even my Kolb is a very well built airplane with very very little messed up stuff on it, these airframes can last 1000's of hours (mine has over 500 and is still in really good shape).

- John Denver died due to pilot error, if I recall correctly. Pilot error accounts for the large majority of accidents and fatalities in aircraft. I've only ever had one in-flight airframe failure, but I've screwed up many many times (fortunately without accident)....

LS

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/11/2007 6:07:58 AM   
pittsdriver



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Gravity, I have to chime in on this thread. I am building an RV7 and should have it done by summer. It is a quickbuild kit and I started it on July 15,2006. I am a very experienced builder and pilot and the Van's aircraft are hands down the best kits out there. The performance of the 7 is excellennt both in high speed and low speed handling. There is not a better all around airplane. As for the auto conversions or aircraft engine there is only one choice and that is a Lycoming in this airplane. Contrary to other posts you can expect 2000hrs or more of trouble free service from a Lycoming 320-360 series engine if built correctly in the first place. Also the 7 is designed for it and it is a no brainer instalation.You will spend as much time trying to fit an auto engine in the 7 as building the rest of the airplane and you will end up with less performance, more money in the powerplant and related systems and very little resale value. Also the Lycomings are not as expensive as you think. Here is a breakdown on my airplane so far. Don

RV7 quickbuild kit with all of the kit options
IO-360 parallel valve engine, balanced to within 1 gram, flowported, new ECI cylinders, new mags, harness and overhauled accessories, forward intake fuel injection, everything done to new engine specs. Dynos at 217hp. $21,000 outright.
Hartzell CS prop 0time overhaul again to new specs
Dynon D100 and D120 EFIS and EMS with all options
Navaid wing leveler autopilot with GPS tracking
ICOM 760 comm
King kt 76 transponder with encoder
Garmin 396 GPS in a dashmount
Aero Classics leather interior

I will have a little less than $75,000 in the airplane less paint when ready to fly and around 1000-1200 hrs construction time. RVs are great flying airplanes and if you ever get to fly one you will be hooked. Also you will fit in it just fine so quit dreaming and get building.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/12/2007 2:21:28 AM   
Semi Retired Aviator



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gravityisnotmyfriend

I just want to know some statistics. I'm a private pilot and am planning on building my first plane. I'm leaning heavily toward the RV-7. The problem is my soon to be wife is not entirely supportive on the idea. My dad crashed a plane when he was in his 20's which makes her think that planes are dangerous. I tried to explain to her that he has had one crash in 30+ yrs of flying and she's been in 5 car accidents in 7 yrs of driving. That didn't go over very well. I believe that private aviation is a very safe sport, but I need some facts to back me up. Can anyone help me convince her?


This may sound bad, but if you intend on flying in the future, get rid of the proposed wife!!!! They figure after the ring goes on, they can change you. You will be running uphill from now on...

I flyj3, I agree. Funny thing about men's and women's different expectations from marriage. a man marries a woman hoping she'll never change; a woman marries a man hoping she can change him!!



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Giver her some more power.......She won't take any more!

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/12/2007 2:47:43 AM   
pittsdriver



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The reason I can spend 30hrs a week building my airplane and work full time is because my EX wife didn't like airplanes. Unfortunately I see this all the time, the man loves flying and the wife hates it. I will probably never get married again. Don

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/12/2007 4:54:51 AM   
Jimmbbo



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2fast

Why would you want to fly in a home designed, home built, home maintained aircraft? This is YOUR LIFE and your wife's LIFE we are talking about. There are plenty of proven safe certificated GA aircraft out there to choose from, many are used and affordable.

Don't know about you, but if it's my wife and family in the plane I want something at least as safe as the airlines. To me that means a production certificated aircraft, professionally maintained and solid regular training for myself, both VFR and IFR. If I can't afford to do it this way then I'll just ride the "big iron".

Do you really want the last thing you hear on this earth to be the screams of your family after your homebuilt beauty comes apart or it flat gets away from you?

Anyone remember John Denver?



Please allow me to comment with 20+ years as an FAR 121 airline pilot/simulator instructor/check airman, a CFI under both FAR 61 and 141 and an A&P mechanic.

The point you conclude with contradicts your assertion... If you read the NTSB report on the Denver crash, it was ascribed to pilot error... Mr. Denver crashed after taking off with minimum fuel, indequate knowledge and training on the airplane, running out of fuel and losing control of the airplane while trying to get another tank to feed. The airplane didn't disintegrate or fall out of the sky. Sadly, Mr. Denver fell victim to his lack of training and experience with the airplane.

It is a matter of NTSB record that the vast majority of GA accidents are pilot-related, and IMO that is directly related to training and recency of experience... One of the major reasons the airlines are as safe as they are is the training required of airline pilots... To be qualified as a First Officer at a jet airline, you will complete initial grouind training of some 6 weeks, 25-30 hours in a full motion simulator practicing normal and emergency procedures, an FAA checkride on those maneuvers, and at least 25 hours of line operations with a check airman. Total calendar time in training - 2-3 months, full time. Upgrade to captain? Back to ground school, additional simulator training, FAA checkride, another 25+ hours of line operations training followed by a FAA line check. Once on line, you fly 70-90 hours per month, 12 months a year in all weather. This tends to keep airline pilots pretty sharp.

Contrast that with GA flying - Private pilot training - 35 - 40 hours hours of flight training over any length of time. Ground school for the FAA written exam can be done self-study with a CFI signoff. Take an FAA designee checkride and you're good to carry the wife and kids anywhere you want in good weather. Unfortunately, GA airplanes continue to meet tragic ends at a distressing rate. The NTSB rules out mechanical failure in over 90% of these events, assigning the responsibiltiy to the Pilot in Command. Your point is well taken that a competent GA who flies an excellent, professional airplane is safer, but it is their natural ability and curiosity that makes him/her safe, not the training they must have. They consider the private pilot certificate as a license to learn as much as they can about their machine and about flying, and are likely to have a long and satisfying aviation career. Others take it far less professionally, and are rolling the dice that they won't have a problem, and are candidates for an NTSB report. In either case, the airplane is an inanimate participant in their activities, and will safely complete a well planned and executed flight, or crash on a fog shrouded mountain due to lack of pilot skill, knowledge or experience.

The weak point is the pilot NOT the machine.

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RE: How safe are homebuilt planes? - 1/12/2007 3:23:20 PM   
pittsdriver
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