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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 3:08:44 PM   
carlosponti



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i never got why people keep arguing about arf's vs kits. do what makes you happy. but i will say though on certain kits the hardware is dissapointing sometimes in the kit vs the arf. take the goldberg ultimate bipe i have always wanted to build one but it comes with a abs cowling and wheel pants. the arf version has fiberglass cowl and wheel pants.

(in reply to Bob Laine)
       Post #: 26

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 3:42:15 PM   
MinnFlyer



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As few as only about 10 years ago, ARF quality was terrible. And I'll be the first to admit that I was an ARF Basher. But my biggest grip about them was quality.

Well, today, the quality of many are as good or better than I can do myself.

I like to build. But it's not something that I am a fanatic about. I used to build (usually) one plane per year during the winter, and my sole motivation for building was to have a new plane for the upcoming season. But I also used to have tons of free time. Nowadays I don't have anywhere near the free time I used to have. And even when I HAD lots of free time, I used CA glue cause it was faster. When I started in theis hobby, we covered wings with silk and dope - Now I use iron-on covering.

Why? Cause it's easier and faster.

I use an electric starter. I buy pre-cut vinyl graphics, etc.

We do many things because they are cheaper and/or faster.

Personally, I would like to see every flier build at least ONE kit, just so they get some idea as to what's going on underneath the covering. But I will never again bash an ARF just because of the fact that it is an ARF.

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 3:55:46 PM   
Cyberwolf



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OK heres the way I look at things ,I agree the ARF's have come along ways and I do own a few ,but I am a builder at heart and will more than likely stay that way weather its a cut kit from a box or I draw it out and scratch it .But sooner or later a plane will meet the ground ,sometimes not to hard whiles others leave toothpicks .Its the not the hard hit ones that makes me wonder could if it be fixed its the not so bad wrecks if the person had some builder experience ,or just toss it and buy another.I fished more than one plane out of a barrel that didn't take much to fix and be ready for the air again.
So I guess through all this babble what i'm saying is I think we all need to have a some amount of building behind us ,if nothing else to know where the weak areas of a plane are and be able to recognize them .We all want to fly as safe as possible at all times and if a plane self destructs on its own ,thats not safe to me.
Like been already said if its a quality ARF I see nothing wrong with it ,to each there own,Don't try to force what you like down another's throat.Its one thing if they show interest and want to learn the do's and don'ts .
And lets not forget the person that no matter what, is not a craftsman and never will be ,if it wasn't for either ARF or someone else building there planes they wouldn't be flying period.
We all get something different from the hobby ,but its what we get that keeps us coming back .
I hope this makes some sense.

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 4:54:36 PM   
Bob Laine



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Heres something else to think about. Do you suppose the RC'ers that chastise the ARF flyer's for not building from a kit, go down to the "AUTO PARTS STORE, and buy all the parts necessary to build their own automobile! Same principle right? Last time I checked........all cars were RTR'S, and I'll wager their are many6 good drivers that don't even know how to change their oil. lol

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 5:48:13 PM   
Stickbuilder



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I personally think that it's a matter of semantics. You hear people say that they own a certain car, or they drive a certain brand of car. You seldom hear someone say that they built that car (restorations & Street Rods excluded). With the ARF, you often hear someone say that they built a model plane, or even in this forum they have, "Build threads", in the ARF forum. I think that this is why you have so much angst between the different building forums. The analogy of the automobile has been used too many times in here either for or against the ARF models. I can use the one that says bragging about an ARF is like driving your brother's car and bragging about it. Makes the same sense as does your analogy about building the car. I don't want to build a car. I do want to build model airplanes. You don't want to build model airplanes, just what do you like to build?
Or, do you want to build anything? No? Then in my eyes (you can't fault the way that I see things...that's just my opinion) you are not an airplane modeller. You just fly someone elses model airplane. That's the basic difference as I see it. Doesn't make me wrong, doesn't make you right.

Bill, AMA 4720

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 5:58:23 PM   
Scar



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bob Laine

Heres something else to think about. Do you suppose the RC'ers that chastise the ARF flyer's for not building from a kit, go down to the "AUTO PARTS STORE, and buy all the parts necessary to build their own automobile! Same principle right? Last time I checked........all cars were RTR'S, and I'll wager their are many6 good drivers that don't even know how to change their oil. lol

Bob, your argument, while valid, will have no effect on the intended audience.

It's like the exchange Galileo had with the Pope. Doesn't matter how the solar system really works, the Pope still wanted Galileo to call the Earth the center of the universe.

I love to build (and fly, and drive, and play guitar, and computer games) but I'm sure glad the folks who would require building experience don't get to put anybody on the rack.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson



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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 6:34:45 PM   
Bob Laine



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Bill, Your point is well taken, and I agree with you for the most part. I am thoroughly familiar with the building process since I have designed and built several airplanes with one of my designs that has been kitted commercially for over 20+ years. My contention is that any one who builds from someone else's design, or from a kit that has all the parts already cut out, is just building a more complex form of ARF. I have never heard the the "analogy" of the automobile and an ARF. Semantics or not, it's still a valid comparison for the intent that I used it. I contend (to play the devils advocate) that just because someone rebuilds an old classic, or restorer's an automobile to it's former condition, They are are still not the builder since they had nothing to do with it's design or original assembly. I fact, all they have done is modify it from one stage to another.
I enjoy building airplanes, But I usually design what I build. That's just the way I feel about building. I also like to fly ARF'S. If someone like to assemble a box of parts that someone else designed, GOOD FOR THEM. (or her) If someone else wants to go so far as to use a set of plans that were drawn up by someone else, and select, and cut out all the balsa, necessary to build the aircraft, that's even better. (I suppose)
But....the true, "articulate" builder will take a 3 view drawing, or a picture of an aircraft, then sit down and draw up their own plans, totally design and build every component of the aircraft, (including any fiberglass) that has to be fabricated, Only then will I consider them to be a true craftsman and a master builder. All others are just assembler's of kit's in different stages of construction. ARF or ready to assemble "Kit's" Bob

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 8:04:12 PM   
NCIS


 

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My intentions were not to put anyone down for flying ARF's. I just hoped that this post might at least convince some ARF flyers to build a kit once in awhile to keep the kit companies from going to all ARF's. Didn't mean to step on anyones toes. I don't push people I fly with to build kits, I just ask them why they don't. I have alot of friends in our club and normally they ask me to come out to fly with them in the morning which I can't do due to work. So normally I just fly with a couple people that can't fly mornings either. I have my opinions just like all you do. Maybe those that never build a kit might just try it and see if they like it!

Gibbs

(in reply to Bob Laine)
       Post #: 33

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 8:15:10 PM   
Bob Laine



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NCIS........Your opinions and desires are as valid as anyone Else's. I just love this hobby period. I think this has been a very informative thread for everyone that has expressed their opinion. The problem we have sometimes with subjective threads like this one is...... sometime, someone will take another persons remarks personal, rather than except them as anothers, personal opinion. Anyone reading this thread is going to glean from it what ever they may. I personally agree with some of the comments in every response. Not all mind you, but some. Isn't that after all, what the thread was started for in the 1st place? Good thread Bob

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 8:29:57 PM   
Stickbuilder



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From: leesburg, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bob Laine

Bill, Your point is well taken, and I agree with you for the most part. I am thoroughly familiar with the building process since I have designed and built several airplanes with one of my designs that has been kitted commercially for over 20+ years. My contention is that any one who builds from someone else's design, or from a kit that has all the parts already cut out, is just building a more complex form of ARF. I have never heard the the "analogy" of the automobile and an ARF. Semantics or not, it's still a valid comparison for the intent that I used it. I contend (to play the devils advocate) that just because someone rebuilds an old classic, or restorer's an automobile to it's former condition, They are are still not the builder since they had nothing to do with it's design or original assembly. I fact, all they have done is modify it from one stage to another.
I enjoy building airplanes, But I usually design what I build. That's just the way I feel about building. I also like to fly ARF'S. If someone like to assemble a box of parts that someone else designed, GOOD FOR THEM. (or her) If someone else wants to go so far as to use a set of plans that were drawn up by someone else, and select, and cut out all the balsa, necessary to build the aircraft, that's even better. (I suppose)
But....the true, "articulate" builder will take a 3 view drawing, or a picture of an aircraft, then sit down and draw up their own plans, totally design and build every component of the aircraft, (including any fiberglass) that has to be fabricated, Only then will I consider them to be a true craftsman and a master builder. All others are just assembler's of kit's in different stages of construction. ARF or ready to assemble "Kit's" Bob


No automobile manufacturer builds a car. They are all assembled form components manufactured by various sub contractors. So using you analogy, General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and the others do not build cars. Since you want to nit-pick, did you grow your balsa tree, cut it, and machine all the planks and sticks for yout scratch builds? If not are you a builder? Did you genetically engineer the tree? Did your develop the means to design the Genetic pool that the Balsa tree came from? Which came first, Bob, The Chicken or the Egg?????

Bill, AMA 4720

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to Bob Laine)
       Post #: 35

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 8:49:50 PM   
ckangaroo70



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Cmon Bill, now thats just plain silly! If you want to build something, then build it! If you don't want to build it, then don't. As I said in a previous post, I really like to see new people building by there choice, and not because I say they should. I come down hard on certain ARF Manufacturers every once in awhile because I would like to see them improve the quality, but I don't come down on the people that fly them. There are some really nice ARF's out there, and there are still some bad ones. There are some really good kits out there, and there are still some bad ones. I may attempt to do some scratch building this winter, but this also is not for everyone! There is only one thing that I can think of where one size is supposed to fit all, and it has nothing to do with model aviaition!

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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 9:03:48 PM   
NCIS


 

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I didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers! Just wanted to hear why modelers prefer ARS's over Kits. I have heard alot of truth from you guys. I don't mean that you shouldn't have ARF's, I just wanted to support the Kit builders like myself. I don't condem any of my fellow club members for flying ARF's. I just ask them why they don't build kits, Thats the end of it. I hope just asking them that question might make them try a kit. I don't push anybody to build if they don't want to. We have a great club and everyone seems to get along with everyone else whether they fly ARF's or Kit's. Maybe just try one you might enjoy it or don't I can't make you!

Gibbs

(in reply to Bob Laine)
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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 9:38:54 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



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quote:

ORIGINAL: NCIS
... Just wanted to hear why modelers prefer ARS's over Kits....


IMHO, calling someone who flies ARFs (and doesn't build models) a "modeller" is akin to calling someone who listens to music (and doesn't play a musical instrument) a musician. They're enjoying someone else's creativity, not creating anything...

modeller

n : a person who creates models [syn: modeler]

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


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RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS - 8/16/2006 11:27:53 PM   
Bob Laine



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Bill.... I won't even attempt to lend credibility your comments by trying to give answer because, on it's face it's so ridiculous. Let's just suffice it to say that the "Auto," manufactures are responsible for every step of the automobile's production from it's conception, design and on