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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 4:17 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		gomil,

You guys are more successful than we are!! We had 16 at our race Saturday, the 18th.

Here is how we are doing it in San Antonio:

We have been charging $5.00, to cover expenses for equipment.. These have now been covered. We may build new pylons, incurring expense.

This past weekend, there was no fee. We sold Polish Sausagees on a bun ($1.00 suggested donation) and sodas ($0.50). Cleared about $25.00. That will meet expenses, if the volunteer cook will stay with us.

No prize money. We have decided not to offer prizes. We did have the very nice Plaques, sponsored by RCPRO, but will probably not do that again. We want to keep this as amateur as possible.

So far, only one club. This is our first year. Four others are getting interested. Will probably have 9 races next year among five clubs.

We offered two classes, OS 40 LA was one, Any 40 engine, with a $100.00 claim was the other. We never had enough LA's for a heat.

We look at the engines, give them a glance.

Everyone uses their own fuel. Everyone uses their own prop.

This last race, we used Hank Kauffmann's Matrix, which we got from the NMPRA website. We will be using Paul Herman's RCPRO Warbird Race Program in the future. You can get that from the NMPRA site, as well.

We are AMA Safety Code compliant. The hardest thing was the 495 feet from pylons to people, "spectators". Anyone not currently flying or officiating is a "spectator" Pilots over 330 feet from pylons was easy. Our field restricts us to a 400-foot course. Even then there are 40-foot trees right by the pylons.

Another problem was the aircraft identification. We think we have that whipped. Our method is shown at What we learned.

We run 4-pane, 10-lap heats. Standing start, two and two, as in AMA 424. Race results are at www.rcpro.org, under RCPRO Club 40, RCPRO discussion.

For next year, e are considering having a "Novice" Class, OS 40 LAs and 3-plane heats. "Expert" class will be what we are currently doing. Trying to get more "Sport Flyers" involved. Any racing program needs a constant supply of new blood.

Now, please tell us how you are doing your races.


Ken Erickson, AMA 19352
San Antonio, TX


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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 12:59 PM   
gomil


 

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Status: offline 		Gomil here,
We use very large numbers on the right wing so when you bank the plane to make the turn you can see them very clearly.
The numbers on the wing are the pilots frequency numbers.
Each pilot has an assigned frequency,and no one else can fly on that frequency for that day,that way there is no impound needed.
The pilot owns that frequency. No matter what field we fly at he carries that number.
A funny thing happened this weekend,there were four planes in the last race. One jump started ,one cut two pylons and was disqualified,the remaining two had a midair. We did not know who to give the trophy to,so they flipped a coin.
We have four people flipping cards that are on a rack right behind the pilots,so the caller can see what lap they are on and whether or not he has a cut. As soon as a pilot reaches ten laps,the person turning his cards calls out the number of the plane and says DONE.
We fly a two pylon course,from outside the course. the pylons are 600 feet apart ,this way you only need one judge at each end with a radio. Thanks for the info gomil@comcast.net

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 1:02 PM   
dwbebens


 

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We had another great Club 40 race by the North-Central Florida group last Saturday near Gainsville.

They normally charge just enough entry fee to pay expenses. Last Saturday, they charged $5, which included fuel and a Sonny's Bar-B-Q lunch!

They offer very nice "Participant" cards to everyone who races. They also offer three very nice trophy plaques for the first three places. These plaques are modelstly priced but attractive, and the winners are obviously delighted to receive them. There are NO other prizes. I think it's important that there be no significant prizes or awards in this type of racing.

In their rules, they specify STOCK OS 40 LA engines and Skyraider airplanes. They allow other hardware, but most of the kit hardware is of excellent quality. You must use all three of the wheels that come with the kit. They allow any fuel tank (muffler pressure only), and any prop. The fuel (15%) is supplied by the hosting club. The motor must be mounted upright and use the stock muffler (the internal baffle may be removed).

As to checking the motors, they don't generally check all the motors. There are a number of people in the organization who scrutinize the planes up and down the flight line throughout the day. Also, if someone appears to be going faster that the rest, I know for a fact that they get VERY interested in your plane and engine, and WILL make measurements. From what I've seen, the performance of the planes are fairly even. The differences in speeds that are evident are the result of prop selection, needling procedure, setup, flying skill, and smoothness.

They use a 600' course and the setback distance appears to be at least 500'. They use a flying start (what a blast). In most of the starts all four planes are within one second as they cross the line.

Their plane ID method is to use large numbers on the bottom of the right wing. If everyone makes their numbers large, wide, and of high contrast, then we don't have much trouble. The problem is that some will have indistinct numbers, making it difficult for lap counters and pylon judges. They are constantly trying to improve compliance in this area.

They run 4 plane 10 lap heats. 1 cut = 11 laps, 2 cuts = 12 laps, 3 or more cuts = 0 score. A "jump start" = 11 laps. So, if you jump the start and get 2 cuts you have to go 13 laps! They just flip the lap count cards back one each time an infraction occurs. The scoring in each heat is standard for pylon racing. There is usually three rounds - - the highest four totals go to the "Gold" heat

The "Gold" heat, the trophy heat, is a 4 plane heat that is usually very exciting. Last Saturday, one plane jumped the start, one plane cut-out, and two others mid-aired near the end. The cut-out and mid-air occured only after some very close, fast, and tight racing.

The rules and methods that these guys have developed are obviously working very well for them, especially considering they are getting 30+ entries at each race. I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING!

Doug Bebensee





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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 1:57 PM   
Jim Duda



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Status: offline 		"Each pilot has an assigned frequency,and no one else can fly on that frequency for that day,that way there is no impound needed.
The pilot owns that frequency. No matter what field we fly at he carries that number.

Doug - gomil:
How do you accommodate the pilot(s) that can't change his/her freq, yet shares a freq that has already been registered for your race?

Have you ever had any of your lap counters/timers or the cut judges complain about being able to read the numbers? (I think Mr. Erickson and crew tried numbers but settled on the 8-1/2 X 11 colors as explained in his link above.)

Are your course officials seperate from the pilots or do non-flying pilots "take their turn at officiating", so to speak...?

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 1:57 PM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		gomil and Doug,

Thanks for the info.

Sounds great.

We, also run "Mains" or "Features" similar to your "Gold Heat", but we usually run enough for everyone. The four with the most points, the next four, the next four, etc. We run the lowest point group first and build to the high point guys. Makes for several heats of really close racing.

Your system makes it easier to do the Matrix. The large numbers did not work for us, when we tried them. Maybe our lap counters have improved and we could try it again. We have the Matrixing problem of "the Pink tag can't be on the Red wing".

Really like the idea of a nice Pilot Card. We have been printing three to a sheet of 110 lb. card stock.

The majority of our guys also want to avoid any significant prizes. Trying to keep it lolw-key and laid back. Guys just want to have fun.

Please post a report on RCPRO with pictures and link to it from here.

Thanks,

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/20/2006 3:19 PM   
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They have a list of pilots and their frequencies published on the internet . If you want to race in our series, it is suggested that you consult this list and pick an open frequency; then notify the person who maintains this list to reserve your frequency. You then have a "grandfathered" priority on this frequency until you quit racing or otherwise give it up. If another person shows up with a frequency that is already being used, they take care to insert him into the matrix so no conflict occurs. If there is a frequency conflict for the Gold heat, the one who is grandfathered-in has that frequency and the other person is out of the gold if he can't change frequencies. I always have an extra set of crystals on hand, just in case.

Yes, there can be difficulties in identifying planes for the officials if the numbers aren't big and bold enough. The numbers are 10" high by 6" wide by at least 1-1/2" stroke of very contrasting colors. The numbers are located on the bottom of the right wing with the first digit above (towards the tip) and the other below it, readable from top to bottom when the wing is at a 90 degree bank angle. It works well if done this way, but some don't make the numbers clear enough and that causes problems. Yes, I am well aware of the standard way of wing marking using the day-glow green and pink Avery-type labels on either the low or high wing. So far, this group is not inclined to go that way. One way to distinguish, for example, a pink label on a red wing is to put a strip of white or black on each side of the pink lable.

They try to have dedicated helpers. Usually there are enough wives, brothers, sisters, friends, and other non-flying people on hand to officiate. They do the best they can. Actually, they have been doing a very good job as far as I can see. There are a few dedicated people to do the scheduling, and starting duties. This also is low key, fun type racing and everyone seems to make allowances. No one seems inclined to be very contentious about the decisions of the officials at these races. That's the way they intend it to be, and it's working out very well.

Doug Bebensee

< Message edited by dwbebens -- 11/20/2006 3:24 PM >

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/21/2006 2:12 AM   
dwbebens


 

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I read the section "What we learned" in your post of 11/20/06.

I'd like to mention what we use in the 424 races I go to. We use the flourescent paper labels in day-glow green and pink. ULINE part number S-2769 is a roll of 1,000 5"x7" self stick paper labels. The labels cost about 7 cents each. Two are used, one on top and one on bottom of the same wing, for each plane in the low-green, low-red, high-green, high-red ID pattern for lanes 1 thru 4 respectively. They are very easy to remove. Just apply some moderate heat with a heat gun and they peel right off without leaving any residue, tearing, or paint removal. I've even used them on painted foam GWS warbirds without any paint removal. This is a very easy method to do and very easy for the officials to see. Also, you can write all your heat numbers right on the label for easy referrence throughout the race.

Doug Bebensee




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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/21/2006 2:53 AM   
Jim Duda



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Status: offline 		Doug and all -
I too was sold on the 5 X 7 ULine stickers you mentioned - after all, they use them at the two biggest racing dances in the country - Nats and Phoenix. But after I saw Ken's method, I think it works the best for the way he has the final heats set up. Planes must be easily re-stickered as they move up through the mains and 120VAC (for a heat gun) is usually not readily available at most fields and using lighter fluid is messy. His paper labels affixed by the "easily removeable" shelf paper can be removed in seconds and new labels applied just as fast as the ULine.

Would they hold up on a 130 MPH 424, or the fast 428 and 422 stuff? Probably not. But for the 90 MPH Raiders they work great! Personally, I like the colors as opposed to numbers...

Use whatever works for you...

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/21/2006 12:15 PM   
dwbebens


 

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Status: offline 		Jim;

I agree - - use whatever works for the situation at hand.

Doug Bebensee

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/24/2006 5:17 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		I just put the .pdf of the report on our November 18th race. It is here.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

Edited to correct the link.

< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 11/25/2006 4:47 AM >

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 11/24/2006 3:32 PM   
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Status: offline 		Nice report Ken. The link didn't work.
Can't wait for next season! We should draw 20+ !!


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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/8/2006 4:39 PM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		Balance:

During the previous discussion of 40 LAs and balance, I wrote that I used a 2-oz. Higley hub. It seems I had taken that off at some point.

After the last race, I noticed that my stock spinner had disapeared. It had been cracked before. There was only the 1/2 oz. Higley nut on the prop. I was surprised.
The plane (and I) flew the course quite smoothly.

All of my Raiders have been assembled exactly as the booklet says. I do replace the machine screws with socket head (Allen) ones, for ease of maintenance.

FYI

Ken Erickson

< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 12/15/2006 5:03 AM >

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/20/2006 4:28 PM   
gunfighter


 

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Status: offline 		Wanted to bump this topic back up so some others can find it easily.

It seems we have several more groups / clubs in Texas that are starting races. I have recently heard from 2 groups in the Ft. Worth area that are running club level races. The problem (as I see it) is that every group seems to want a different plane / engine combination.

I would like to get a discussion going to see if we can standardize plane / engine combo's so "travelers" can take part in racing at other clubs. Besides the sky raider, what other plane / engine combo's are being used in TEXAS?


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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/20/2006 8:10 PM   
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Thats exactly the reason for AMA national rules for 424, 428 and 422. You like it or not it solves the "different clubs different rules" problem.

Barry

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/20/2006 9:17 PM   
gunfighter


 

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Status: offline 		BL10 - IMHO - There are 2 main reasons we do not run AMA 424 racers for club racing. Also IMO - They parallel the reasons why AMA pylon racing is not growing - at least in this area. I cannot speak for California or other parts of the country.

1. Many of the local clubs do not have the room to run a 3 pole course. But most can manage a 400' 2 pole course.

2. Quite a few (dare I say most) pilots are reluctant to fly a 130+mph airplane. Especially around themselves while standing in the middle of the course. However, many are more than willing to fly an 80 - 90mph airplane around a 2 pole course "out in front" of the pilots.

We have been quite successful with our club races in the San Antonio area. We have drawn pilots from many clubs with-in our geographical area. Next season, we anticipate having races at perhaps 5-7 new clubs.

We have been drawing pilots who regularly run 424, 428 and 422 class races. They all say they are having a great time in the low stress racing we provide.

I have said from the beginning that if organized racing groups (AMA style racing) would support us, they may very well find new pilots to fly in AMA class races.

Alas, they seem to be to busy to bother with us.

Please understand, I am not trying to place blame. I am trying to foster understanding.



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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/21/2006 12:56 PM   
dwbebens


 

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I couldn't agree with you more. That's exactly what we're experiencing here in North-Central Florida.

Keep up the good work.

Doug Bebensee

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/23/2006 1:32 PM   
dwbebens


 

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Status: offline 		Hi everyone;

Here are a bunch of photos of our last Club 40 race in Gainsville Fl on Nov 18, 2006.

Go to: http://www.southerneaglesquadron.com/Default.htm

Then click on "New photos added Dec 10, 2006"

Then click on 'Flying Gators "Club 40" race Gainsville - Added Dec 10, 2006'

My plane is #16

I am in photo "racer 064.jpg"

We had over 30 entries for this race, and growing all the time.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I have a blast at these races.

Doug Bebensee

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/23/2006 3:45 PM   
gunfighter


 

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Status: offline 		Very nice Doug!
One thing I notice is that probably 80%+ of your pilots have re-covered the raiders. They are very colorful!


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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/25/2006 2:35 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		Doug,

Very nice turnout. Nice Pictures. Great facilities.

What is the second set of flip pages that each lap counter has?

Looks like there is enough space for a rectangular field layout. ( Pylon line parallel to runway) Is there?

How can I get in touch with the person(s) who put this on?

Ken Erickson

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/25/2006 12:53 PM   
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The second set of flip cards at the timer stand are the cut cards.

Yes, the course was set up well back of and parallel to the runway.

One of the people to contact is Lyman Slack at lyslackevents@bellsouth.net He could direct you to others if you'd like.

Doug



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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/26/2006 12:57 AM   
waydar


 

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Status: offline 		I fly the Club 40 Races with the Ocala Flying Model Club in Ocala FL. We fly the Sky Raider planes and have 4 or 5 other clubs in our group. At last count I think we have 67 flyers signed up to participate. Our last event held Dec 9th at the Flying Gators field in Archer FL had 34 pilots flying...oh what fun we had. Looking forward to the first round of 2007 in Feb. It's a great sport and don't cost much.

Take care and happy flying and racing.

waydar

Summerfield FL

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/26/2006 5:20 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		We have had some complaints and problems, because we could not have our course parallel to the runway. We are going to risk offending the tree-huggers, by cutting down some Mesquite and Huisache in an attempt to get parallel. At least we will have good wood for our barbeques.

Our next race is scheduled to be in April. Then we will have one a month through November.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/26/2006 7:37 PM   
DonStegall


 

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Status: offline 		Based on the experience of others and my own efforts, I propose a couple of changes to the RCPRO Club 40 rules.

The first change is to limit the airframes even further. While I don't like monopoly situations, the one-design concept works in many forms of racing. The World Models (TWM) has two airframes that are effectively identical in performance. The wing on the Sky Raider Mach II (aka the Raider) and the LA Racer 40 (aka the Racer) is identical in airfoil and planform. The only difference is that the ailerons extend an extra inch or so all the way to the end of the wing on the LA Racer 40. I have swapped wings between Sky Raider Mach II planes and LA Racer 40 planes. This was with first generation LA Racer 40 planes. I have not checked the second generation LA Racer 40, but as far as I know, the only changes were firewall forward. The construction of the wings is identical except for an extra rib in the LA Racer 40 wing at the aileron servo bays.

The LA Racer 40 fuselage is slightly slimmer than the Sky Raider Mach II fuselage. And the Racer has a cowl. But the Racer has more wetted fuselage area than a Raider. The exposed servos on the Racer wing seem to even out any advantage it may have.

The other two planes that were on the initial list are the SIG Four Star 40 and SIG Mid-Star 40. There are some established racing circuits that use the SIG planes. The goal was to be inclusive. However, the cost difference and possible perceived performance differences may be reason enough to take these planes off of the list. The wing construction of the SIG planes is not a D-tube, and do not seem as strong as the TWM wings. There is potential for kit builders to gain an advantage.

My proposal is to change the airframe list to include only the Sky Raider Mach II and the LA Racer 40.

There are two engine performance levels that the majority of clubs are using. The lower end performance level is effectively centered on the OS .40 LA or similar engines. The higher performance level is dominated by the Thunder Tiger Pro .40 and the Super Tigre GS-40.

Some groups have used the OS .46 FX and OS .46 AX as these are more popular with sport fliers. However, issues with AMA setback distances for engines over .40 on a 2 pole course cause concern here. There are no extended setbacks for the 3 pole course, so perhaps some flexibility to include .46 engines deserves consideration.

I propose that we make the OS .40 LA the official engine of the RCPRO Club 40 Bronze class. I propose that the current list of ball-bearing .40 sport engines be the official engines of the RCPRO Club 40 Silver class.

This leaves an opening for an RCPRO Club 40 Gold class that allows other engines and reduced restrictions on mufflers, but testing is needed before setting engine/powerplant guidelines for the Gold class. I'm going to try a Quickie JETT with a RED-JETT carb to see what the extreme end of idling .40 performance is like. It may be too much for the stock airframe. I don't think that getting into airframe enhancement is reasonable. The primary goal of allowing room for a Gold class is local deviations. If people want more performance, they can run AMA 424 and/or AMA 428 races, which CAN be run on 2 pole courses.


< Message edited by DonStegall -- 12/26/2006 7:40 PM >

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/27/2006 1:09 AM   
gunfighter


 

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Status: offline 		Don,

I agree with the move to limit the airframes to the Raider and the LA Racer. Less confusion and the price is unbeatable! I just hope that World Models can supply enough for all of us!

I also agree with you regarding limitation of engines and making 2 classes of competition. Whether that be Bronze and Silver or Novice and Expert makes no difference. If we can just get the word out to all the clubs that are currently racing or who are contemplating holding races, we could really have a ball! I am going to try to get a "team" together to travel and put on demo races at the lunch break of several fun fly events this year in Texas. I know there are many clubs racing, but they all use different plane / engine combo's. We would like to standardize the planes to the "club .40" guidelines. Then we could travel and race all over the state.

The thing I do not agree with is any attempt to move to high performance engines such as Jett, Nelson, Cyclone, Fora or others. I think this needs to remain a low cost, moderate performance event that appeals to any sport pilot.

I have talked to many pilots and quite a few clubs and there seems to be a bright line at about 100 MPH that many sport pilots are afraid to cross. Tell a group that these racers fly at about 90 - 95 mph (with the TT Pro and ST 40) and they are fine. Tell them the planes fly at 100 - 115 mph and they are not interested.

just my .02 worth

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RE: Club 40 Racing Hangout - 12/27/2006 4:28 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		Don,

We have been trying to include more airframes, trying to follow your lead, but it has seemed to be a lost cause. I have to agree that limitting it two those two, almost identical airframes, is reality.

I agree about the Bronze (FP clones) and Silver (BB inexpensive). probably will not be inclined to go any higher. To quote a wise man, "If people want more performance, they can run AMA 424 and/or AMA 428 races, which CAN be run on 2 pole courses."

As you know, we intended our racing to be for the average Joe, who wanted to do some racing. We hoped it could be done without burning the pocketbook. What we have accomplishes that. You have been a great help to us. We also felt that those who wanted "more" could move "up" to 424 or ...

We appreciate you. Keep up the good work.

Will World Model Company be able to keep up with the demand???????

Yours,

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX


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(in reply to DonStegall)
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