RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only  
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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 12:35:52 AM   
The Real Dogman



Posts: 1955
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Back to the subject........A torque converter is an excellent idea..I am just curious how hot it would get...I dont how many of you have touched a torque converter on a 1:1 when it is being overworked, but damn thing can burn you good!!I like the idea , I think it could work...but lots of testing....However, in reality the torque converter is really a liquid clutch, operating on rotational speed(RPM) that never truely locks up(electronic or mechanical assistants aside), so I'm not sure there would be any real advantage...

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 7:56:54 AM   
insaneuswa


 

Posts: 49
Joined: 12/21/2006
From: bessemer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		same advantage it has in a 1:1 say i am stopped at a red light.... with a manual i gotta disengage the clutch to keep from stalling the engine where as auto the tq converter allows slip when the xmission stopps the engine keeps running :-) it would most likely get really hot... and be terribly inefficient.. but you could bind the drive train without killing engine as i said iduno where u could find one, i have found some for moddle trains... doubt it could stand the RPM of a RC nitro motor tho

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 11:40:16 AM   
insaneuswa


 

Posts: 49
Joined: 12/21/2006
From: bessemer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		idea #2 from the <no nitro crawlers post>
micro hydrolic pump.... and hydro motor......
again haven't done any research but an idea none the less

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       Post #: 78

RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 2:31:36 PM   
Anomie



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From: Livermore, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Real Dogman

Back to the subject........A torque converter is an excellent idea..I am just curious how hot it would get...I dont how many of you have touched a torque converter on a 1:1 when it is being overworked, but damn thing can burn you good!!I like the idea , I think it could work...but lots of testing....However, in reality the torque converter is really a liquid clutch, operating on rotational speed(RPM) that never truely locks up(electronic or mechanical assistants aside), so I'm not sure there would be any real advantage...


I think you're right about the heat. That may be a tough one to overcome.

A model converter would seem to act similar to a centrifugal clutch, but likely more difficult to adjust the stall speed. A high-stall converter in a 1:1 tends to hook up quickly, and doesn't necessarily 'slip' with ease. Perhaps a servo-actuated clutch with a pressure plate and thrust bearing would be a more controllable and consistent means of transmitting the rotation. A 'wet' clutch would keep the heating to a manageable level.

Now, I realize that these ideas could be complex to implement on a small scale, but overcoming the low-speed issues inherent in a nitro vehicle may require such engineering.

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 2:34:16 PM   
Anomie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: insaneuswa

same advantage it has in a 1:1 say i am stopped at a red light.... with a manual i gotta disengage the clutch to keep from stalling the engine where as auto the tq converter allows slip when the xmission stopps the engine keeps running :-) it would most likely get really hot... and be terribly inefficient.. but you could bind the drive train without killing engine as i said iduno where u could find one, i have found some for moddle trains... doubt it could stand the RPM of a RC nitro motor tho


The RPM might not be a problem with the right engine - like a 4-stroke - and it would run smoother and more manageable just off idle. I agree with you about the inefficiency, though.

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 2:58:34 PM   
comerford2@msn.com


 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 12/16/2006
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Status: offline 		there is another type of converter, belt drive like in a snowmobile. they have huge amounts of toque and when at cruse speed the rpm's will fall. the only problem with this is a very high stall speed. I don't know if there made for rc trucks.

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 3:17:09 PM   
Anomie



Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Livermore, CA, USA
Status: offline 		It sounds like a CVT. There was one made some years ago in a 1/10 car. I believe it was made by Kyosho, but I could be mistaken.

A variable belt would be awesome, and there was a bit of a discussion recently.

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/22/2006 8:28:13 PM   
comerford2@msn.com


 

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Status: offline 		yup that's what they are called, did not want to use auto terminology. some people are like .

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 4:03:39 AM   
Rat1



Posts: 721
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From: Grafton, ND, USA
Status: offline 		CVT and torque converters rob alot of power. They both loose more then 25% of the motors power in the transfer fromt he motor to the transmission. The most effective CVT or torque converter systems might get close to only a 20% loss of power.


Sorry but like what was said earlier. Nitro and crawlers go together about as good as oil and water. Nitro motors just are not capable of the controllable low end torque to be even close to competitive during slow speed technical stuff that I have seen in crawling comps.


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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 5:13:02 AM   
The Real Dogman



Posts: 1955
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From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Please read the guidelines set forth in the opening post of this thread. In the spirit of good faith and decency, please adhere to the intention of this thread. If you do not have a comment or suggestion that directly contributes to the progression of this idea, then do not post or post elsewhere. There are plenty of other places to post your disagreements/distain with the idea of nitro crawling. Please preserve the sanctity of this thread and the pure idealogical discussion.

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 1:23:17 PM   
Anomie



Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Livermore, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks Dogman. Well said.

I have been moving ahead with my truck with the intention of being able to build in nitro or electric propulsion, and the more I work, the more I believe the nitro can be successfully and reliably adapted to this format. The discussion here has been helpful in many ways and an excellent place to bounce ideas and theories off others' thoughts. The furthering of this section of the hobby is important to me and challenging to many of us. Forward progress, to be sure.

Let's keep it going!

~R

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 2:25:05 PM   
Rat1



Posts: 721
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Grafton, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Just saying that CVT and torque converter (fluid) systems are no were near as eficiant as a geared system. Also higher stall speeds are not wanted when rock crawling. You will want and ultra low rpm stall or lockup for better control inthe technical stuff.


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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 5:17:40 PM   
The Real Dogman



Posts: 1955
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I strongly believe that gearing is what is going to make nitro's successful. If we can lower the gearing enough to match the rpm and power to the wheel speed needed for crawling we can get awhole lot closer to the goal!!

my intention is to see if we can use a normal centrifugal clutch to hook up the power thru a modified tranny or added gear reduction. Using a smaller engine package for weight issues. Here's my logic-How can a 90hp four cyclinder engine have enough torque and power to easily move 50 tons of dirt with such big tires??? GEARING!!!! Now that sounds like a natural for crawling- High power and torque from a small engine to slowley rotate large tires over large objects!! And easier to control free rolling downhill movement(coasting)

I have been experimenting mathmatically with gear ratio's to see if it is even possible. So far very promising!!!!!

< Message edited by The Real Dogman -- 12/24/2006 5:19:29 PM >

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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 5:24:21 PM   
Rat1



Posts: 721
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Grafton, ND, USA
Status: offline 		The big difference is the nitro type motor (similar to a 2 stroke motor) and the 90 motor being a 4 stroke or diesel motor. 4 stroke and diesel motors will always build alot more power on the bottom end then a 2 stroke or nitro motor. You are going to have to get the rpms up pretty high to get enough power to pull steep rocks.


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RE: Nitro Rock Crawlers Only - 12/24/2006 5:47:15 PM   
The Real Dogman



Posts: 1955
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Rat, you are right to an extent, but what you missed in my post is with gearing we can actually match the engine rpm(powerband) with the wheelspeed needed to crawl. Engine power is not as critcal with the enhanced power and torque the gear reduction will provide, Thus smaller engine. Besides noone said a saito 4 stroke is out of the equation. The numbers I am getting so far are easily proving my theory.

Where your thinking is flawed is that it really doesn't matter what power plant you use, all thats required is a powerplant that has enough rpm and torque to work with the gearing. And nitro engines have been proven to provide power. Breaking down to basics, Rotational speed=rpm, Rotational torque=power. Those are constant, add the variable gearing and the result is controlled RPM and Power output. RPM + Power +(Gearing)=Controlled Output

How does the same electric motor provide more or less speed/power required for a varity of tasks? Gearing!!(Smaller drive gear[pinion] and larger driven gear[spur]=slower output rpm with more torque!!)

< Message edited by The Real Dogman -- 12/24/2006 6:13:46 PM >

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