RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (Full Version)

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oldpilot -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/23/2006 11:59:37 AM)

IN REGARD TO YOUR SHIPPING POLICIES.

I buy lots of accessories and batteries from the USA and there seems to be a growing move to shipping by USPS International Priority Airmail to International destinations such as Australia, where I live. USPS shipping is fast and inexpensive to the point where on my orders I now state. " Do NOT on any account ship by Fedex or UPS". If they won't ship by USPS I don't use them ----there are plenty of other suppliers who will.
In your case you have the market monopoly of this new battery technology, but I can't see any reason why you cannot ship by USPS to Australia. You don't need any special permission to do so. If Li Poly batteries are able to be shipped without problem, I'm sure A123 batteries can be too.

Cheers. Patrick. [8D][;)][:D]



everydayflyer -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/23/2006 4:11:55 PM)

I also am interested in the double number of tabs. Each cell has two ends so four tabs per cell would perhapd mean a double layer(2 per end). Wouldn't thicker tabs be better than layering them. Copper would be better than steel it would seem.
I did not that the tabs appear to be larger / longer on the cells from 123 as compared to the cells from A123 Racing and the tabs from A123 Racing are a touch longer than the ones on the DeWalt packs.
Yes I know A123 Racing do not endorse using cells from DeWalt packs however as they also do not endorse using any charger other than theri own which is limited to 3S packs I fail to see a major difference.

I harvest cells from DeWalt 36 V packs, build my own packs in the configurations I need and charge with a modified Astro Flight 109 LiPoly charger and use Thunder Power and Hyperion Balancers.
Life is good ,I love the cells just wish like others marketing was better.

Look what I found

http://www.a123systems.com/html/applications.html

Cell with 4 tabs however when you clink on Go Photo changes.

Charles



Warcloud -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/28/2006 10:51:26 PM)

Are you planning on selling packs for recievers... I would like to use them for my 1/8 scale truggy and buggy... and would I need a voltage regulator.



rltucker -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/29/2006 6:43:27 AM)

This message is for Red Scholefield.

In your post of December 17 you mentioned harvesting A123 cells from DeWalt 36 Volt packs. Do those packs have only 10 cells in series, or 20 cells in a 10S2P arrangement?

I'm wondering how you get 4S2P packs for only $80. The lowest price for the 36 Volt packs that I can find is at Amazon.com where the price is $164.99 with free shipping.

Bob Tucker



everydayflyer -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/30/2006 3:17:29 AM)

Not Red however DeWalt 36 Volt 10 cells in series available on E Bay auction.
These are replacement / extra power packs for the DeWalt 36V cordless power tools.

I have purchased 3 at between $85 and $95 each plus approx. $10 shipping .



rltucker -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/30/2006 3:44:46 AM)

Thanks to everydayflyer... that is good information.

Bob



Marv829 -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (12/31/2006 12:16:08 AM)

Maybe for a NEW YEARS celebration, Brian@A123Racing will put the developers kits on sale for say $50.
(We can hope anyway)

.......................Happy New Year.........................



madmoony -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/4/2007 3:58:37 PM)

Hello,my name is Burkhard and i am a german A123 cell user.I'm using them in a 6s2p configuration in my Mono 2 Speedboat.For better handling and easier charge i splitted them in 2 times 3s2p.
Everything works fine but i have a question to Brian (or anybody else)about the configuration whitch is best for those cells.
I have build up 4 times 3s1p and fitted them together as 2 times 3s2p.
We discussed here the idea ,it's maybe better for them to build up 6 times 1s2p and then build up the 2 times 3s2p.
The difference is small but maybe importand if high currents are used to charge the 3s2p configuration.
I use at the moment 20 Amps to recharge them in about 13 minutes each.

So,do anybody know what is the better solution?It's easy for me to make the nessesary interconections to change them in a all paralell configuration as mentioned before.

Thanks for your help in advance and sorry for the "German English"

Burkhard



A123 Racing -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/4/2007 5:21:14 PM)

Hello Burkhard,

The best way to configure your pack for charging would be to have it as a 6S2P. This negates the losses created when using interconnects, but it is understandable if your charger will not charge such a pack. I think they way you have it configured as two 3S2P packs is the best way to go. It would be a good idea to check the balance of the pack once in a while (measure the voltage of each cell after charge). If any cell is higher you can drain it down to match the others, if it is lower then charge that cell individually. This will help ensure a long lifetime for your pack.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian

[image]http://www.a123racing.com/images/logo.gif[/image]



madmoony -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/4/2007 6:33:53 PM)

Thanks for that fast reply.Yes in deed my charger can only do it's job on a 3s configuration.But the question was a little different...
In a 3s2p pack there are normaly no conections between the paralell cells.Only at the endings the two 3s1p are connected together.So my question was if it's better to make all 4 conections instead of only the two at the ends of the packs.

i try to figure this out:

this is the normal 3s2p version,only connected at the ends

I===II===II===I
|....................|
I===II===II===I

and this is the other 3s2p version ,also connections between the cells

I===II===II===I
|.....|......|......|
I===II===II===I

I think this should help to hold the cells in balance more efficent,because it will act like as there are only 3 bigger cells instead of 6 individual cells

have you understood my question ?


Grz Burkhard



madmoony -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/5/2007 3:46:56 PM)

Hmm,nobody an idea?
Whats the way you have designed the 3s2 or 4..5..6s2 packs ? With or without interconections?

Burkhard



modifyit15 -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/5/2007 4:59:37 PM)

does any body know if you can run the turbo packs in serise



rammar -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/5/2007 5:42:50 PM)

I'm building a Super Sportster 60 for electric and have purchased the power system which consists of the MPI Combo-60 (HC5030-390 motor/PHHV45 esc/13x8E prop or what works best) I expect the aircraft to weigh somewhere in the 11-14 lb range but trying to stay lighter. Specs are: Current,Amps;45/ Watts Range 1100-1200/Thrust oz 182/System Weight 17oz/ Suggested Battery 4S5000x2 (8S).

That's alot of LIPO batteries and expense! Can you suggest a setup using a123 batterys?



A123 Racing -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/5/2007 10:59:51 PM)

Hello Burkhard,

Our 2S2P packs are made similarly to the way you show in your second “Picture” with interconnects at each cell. This does help them stay balanced with each other.

Modifyit,

The turbo modules can be used in series however you still need to make sure you follow the power use guidelines in the instructions. You will want to monitor the temperature for the first few runs to make sure it is not getting to hot.

Rammar

For your application you would want to look at a 5S2P x 2 configuration. The pack voltage will be 16.5V nominal and around 14.5V under a 45 amp load. Total weight of the pack will be around 25 oz. A bit heavier but it will be capable of a lot more power if demanded of it. 3 developer kits (12 cells) from www.a123racing.com will be enough cells and will cost $198.

Please let me know if you have any more questions.

Brian

[image]http://www.a123racing.com/images/logo.gif[/image]



madmoony -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/6/2007 3:07:30 PM)

Thank you Brian,thats helpfull information.

One more question,what is the maximum CONTINUOS currend you can get from one full charged cell untill its empty in one go,without cooling ?
I tested it with 40 Amps but i reach a temperature about 70 degrees. the starting point was 21 degrees.
I am talking about a constand currend discharge from full to empty in one go.
The spec. says 30C cont. ,that means around 70 Amps.

I haven't tryed this because of the high temperature i have reached with 40 Amps.

Grz Burkhard



everydayflyer -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/10/2007 2:51:21 PM)

An interesting application study including temperatures and projected life cycles

http://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1229.pdf



bradman -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/10/2007 5:07:04 PM)

It is hard to believe that that information is 100% accurate when the document is riddled with typo's and mis-calculations. It looks more like an advertisement for thier chargers and their discharge protection module. I use the batteries in my rustler and i drive it until the truck stops. I haven't had any problems where i would need a discharge protection module.

Brad



rammar -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/10/2007 5:40:58 PM)

Brian,

The guy from MPI said it would take (26.4v) quite a bit more voltage to drive this setup - but these have twice the output 30C for your batts vs 15C for regular lipos. Is that the difference?

I do like the price difference - but will my Triton charger work on these cells? I know you've answered the charger question quite a few times already -

Thanks,

Rick (rammar)

my post was:

I'm building a Super Sportster 60 for electric and have purchased the power system which consists of the MPI Combo-60 (HC5030-390 motor/PHHV45 esc/13x8E prop or what works best) I expect the aircraft to weigh somewhere in the 11-14 lb range but trying to stay lighter. Specs are: Current,Amps;45/ Watts Range 1100-1200/Thrust oz 182/System Weight 17oz/ Suggested Battery 4S5000x2 (8S).

That's alot of LIPO batteries and expense! Can you suggest a setup using a123 batterys?



everydayflyer -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/10/2007 5:45:49 PM)

I use a 3S A123 pack in my Rustler the same way. CC Mamba Max 5700 14:84 gearing and 2200 mAh plus to recharge after a 9 min. run using my TP-1010C Rev. 2.1A charger at 10A, typ. 17 min. charges.

Yes Fred is a Salesman first and formost but his life cycles versus temperatures durning discharges are based on more than a WAG.

I wish others would provide real worl data but I seem to strike out where ever I look for / request it.

I am now at cycle 93 collecting my own data.

Discharge a pack at a low rate to a llow overall voltage without monitoring each cell and see what happens.

I did a low amp. discharge on a 4S pack to 8V and wiped out a cell.

Charles



RC Accessory -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/11/2007 12:57:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rammar

Brian,

The guy from MPI said it would take (26.4v) quite a bit more voltage to drive this setup - but these have twice the output 30C for your batts vs 15C for regular lipos. Is that the difference?

I do like the price difference - but will my Triton charger work on these cells? I know you've answered the charger question quite a few times already -

That's alot of LIPO batteries and expense! Can you suggest a setup using a123 batterys?


Brian, @ 26.4 volts, that is an 8S 123 pack. Simple enough. No your Triton will not work in a 8S setup. You could split the packs into 2 4S A123 packs then use the Triton with the SLK lipo adapter. But... The Triton power is very low for lithium use that it will take quite a while to get 2 packs charged. These cells can be charged in about 15 minutes with the right charger.

As an 8S pack, there are only a few chargers that can do a 8S A123 pack.

e-Station BC-8
e-Station 902
TME Extrema
Thunderpower 1010 with the latest firmware.
Astro 109 soon will have a A123 charger version.

In a 8S setup, I would recommend the use of a balancer. The BC-8 is the only one with a built in 8S balancer. All the other will require an external balancer. The issues in this case is that only Thunderpower has a 10 cell single unit balancer. The e-Station PB-6 can do 12S packs, but it is using 2 PB-6's to do it. The Hyperion LBA10 would require 2 strung together as well. This is one of the reasons I like the BC-8.

Breaking the pack down into 2 4S packs opens your options more than a single 8S pack. A single 8S pack is more convienent.

RC Accessory
Auth US Bantam Importer





stemur1 -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/19/2007 3:26:39 PM)

Hello All,
Brian this may be a question for you and a question for anyone who has built up a 29% electric plane, but I would just like a little insight on balancing ideas(prefferably from experience) using a 12S1P pack for a 43.2V system. In final config there will be two of these packs in parallel, but I would like to see if anyone has built a pack this large and how they charged and balanced it. I understand I could just bump down to 36v and use a Dewalt charger w/balancer, but I want the higher voltage so I can use a power supply from the telecom industry that my company manufacturers, to charge the pack. (1200w-48.0v adjustable/25A output). Much faster charge times at the field. We have many of the M1 cells here at our facility in test and possibly for large scale production so I have a few to play with, and we are currently in the design process of creating LARGE scale battery balancers for the M1 cells, but nothing I can use yet.
Any insight from experiance would be very much appreciated. Thanks Steve



dick Hanson -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/19/2007 4:34:51 PM)

I want to run a two (2) cell 123 setup as a receiver pack-for a real current hungry setup -
I don't like the LiIon /reg approach -(I won't use em ).
do you have any feedback on using say two , two cell 123 packs on two switch harnesses ?
I presently use high output large NiMh cells and these work but I want to up the power (voltage and amps) a little bit and increases the power from 4300 ma also -without more weight gain.
Some friends are using LiPos (not LiIons) running wild on same servos I use (JR) and by not stalling the servos - it all seems to work just fine
I am a bit reluctant to run that much voltage but the 123's look like a reasonable increase over the typical 5 cell NiMh.
the radios can use up to 9 v so that is not an issue



RC Accessory -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/19/2007 4:43:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

I want to run a two (2) cell 123 setup as a receiver pack-for a real current hungry setup -
I don't like the LiIon /reg approach -(I won't use em ).
do you have any feedback on using say two , two cell 123 packs on two switch harnesses ?
I presently use high output large NiMh cells and these work but I want to up the power (voltage and amps) a little bit and increases the power from 4300 ma also -without more weight gain.
Some friends are using LiPos (not LiIons) running wild on same servos I use (JR) and by not stalling the servos - it all seems to work just fine
I am a bit reluctant to run that much voltage but the 123's look like a reasonable increase over the typical 5 cell NiMh.
the radios can use up to 9 v so that is not an issue



Hi Dick, long time no hear. I used to fly one of your Runarunds MANY years ago.

2 cell A123's work great as RX packs. I tested one out rceently, no problems at all. I ran it directly through the switch with no regulator. I plan on 2 for my 32.5% Extra, replacing 5 cell NIMH packs.

Evan



dick Hanson -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/19/2007 4:49:05 PM)

Thanks for the feedback - I guess the Runaround has run to ground?
I hav a few gassers I am still flogging -from 26 cc to 160 cc.



RC Accessory -> RE: A123Racing Battery Questions (1/19/2007 6:21:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

Thanks for the feedback - I guess the Runaround has run to ground?
I hav a few gassers I am still flogging -from 26 cc to 160 cc.


After the Runaround, then a Meridian, then a Prusuit, then Sequel, then Ambition, then out of pattern. :(



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