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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 6:29 PM   
rhallgarth


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hustler58

quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Thanks my CG is with in the 10-17% wing out but as I sweep them back to make it fly with no up elevator trim the CG needs to be about 2 1/2'' behind that.
If I got what you told pilotguy I should use the wing angle of attack and or just anhedral to change the center of lift?

I'm not sure how the anhedral works but they put it in the full scale for a reason. The anhedral on the B-1 is 1.9 deg

Anhedral allows a plane to be more unstable in flight. It might sound weird but most combat aircraft have 0 anhedral or have some anhedral in wings. All modern combat aircraft are designed to be unstable in flight or less stable in spiral mode. Dihedral increases stability in spiral mode while anhedral increases instability. If the plane cannot perform drastic aerodynamic moves to avoid threats it is at a disadvantage. With anhedral a combat aircraft can twist/roll faster in a side slip or roll movement. The F-4 is a polyhedral aircraft because initial flight testing indicated some real nastiness with the flat wing design in flight. One wants the plane to be slightly unstable but not unflyable.




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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 7:55 PM   
pilotdude57


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Dude I've seen the same drawings butch is referring to and there is no washout in the f14 wings. I have even spoken with a few of the chief designers, mainteners and the people who constructed them and they have all said there was no washout in the wing.
Will you just Go AWAY!!!!! Everyone is tired of listening to your ''know it all, can never be wrong'' mentalitiy. So GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the first place speak for yourself. Did you poll everyone to see if they were "tired of listening"? Why would you talk to so many people about wing washout in the F-14, I know from a previous post you apparently built an F-14 model, but wouldn't one source have been enough? Sounds like a claim AFTER the fact. I built an F-14 about 20 years ago, and where would I get the idea that the F-14 has washout if it doesn't? Why don't you guys E-mail me a copy of the plans you guys are talking about at pilotdude2@hotmail.com
I would like to see for myself, so you can support your claim.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 8:16 PM   
Seraphim77



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhallgarth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hustler58

quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Thanks my CG is with in the 10-17% wing out but as I sweep them back to make it fly with no up elevator trim the CG needs to be about 2 1/2'' behind that.
If I got what you told pilotguy I should use the wing angle of attack and or just anhedral to change the center of lift?

I'm not sure how the anhedral works but they put it in the full scale for a reason. The anhedral on the B-1 is 1.9 deg

Anhedral allows a plane to be more unstable in flight. It might sound weird but most combat aircraft have 0 anhedral or have some anhedral in wings. All modern combat aircraft are designed to be unstable in flight or less stable in spiral mode. Dihedral increases stability in spiral mode while anhedral increases instability. If the plane cannot perform drastic aerodynamic moves to avoid threats it is at a disadvantage. With anhedral a combat aircraft can twist/roll faster in a side slip or roll movement. The F-4 is a polyhedral aircraft because initial flight testing indicated some real nastiness with the flat wing design in flight. One wants the plane to be slightly unstable but not unflyable.


I love Wikipedia! For those who want more basic information on what's being talked about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_(aircraft)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washout_(aviation)

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 8:35 PM   
Hustler58



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhallgarth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hustler58

quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Thanks my CG is with in the 10-17% wing out but as I sweep them back to make it fly with no up elevator trim the CG needs to be about 2 1/2'' behind that.
If I got what you told pilotguy I should use the wing angle of attack and or just anhedral to change the center of lift?

I'm not sure how the anhedral works but they put it in the full scale for a reason. The anhedral on the B-1 is 1.9 deg

Anhedral allows a plane to be more unstable in flight. It might sound weird but most combat aircraft have 0 anhedral or have some anhedral in wings. All modern combat aircraft are designed to be unstable in flight or less stable in spiral mode. Dihedral increases stability in spiral mode while anhedral increases instability. If the plane cannot perform drastic aerodynamic moves to avoid threats it is at a disadvantage. With anhedral a combat aircraft can twist/roll faster in a side slip or roll movement. The F-4 is a polyhedral aircraft because initial flight testing indicated some real nastiness with the flat wing design in flight. One wants the plane to be slightly unstable but not unflyable.





The anhedral in the swing wing has little to do with the stability with the wing forward. It has affect on the wing when it swings back. You have to look at the pivot piont and watch the wing rotate back and you will see how the wing twist/rotate. Which gives it a under camber affect like a delta wing.



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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 8:40 PM   
Seraphim77



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pilotdude57


quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Dude I've seen the same drawings butch is referring to and there is no washout in the f14 wings. I have even spoken with a few of the chief designers, mainteners and the people who constructed them and they have all said there was no washout in the wing.
Will you just Go AWAY!!!!! Everyone is tired of listening to your ''know it all, can never be wrong'' mentalitiy. So GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the first place speak for yourself. Did you poll everyone to see if they were ''tired of listening''? Why would you talk to so many people about wing washout in the F-14, I know from a previous post you apparently built an F-14 model, but wouldn't one source have been enough? Sounds like a claim AFTER the fact. I built an F-14 about 20 years ago, and where would I get the idea that the F-14 has washout if it doesn't? Why don't you guys E-mail me a copy of the plans you guys are talking about at pilotdude2@hotmail.com
I would like to see for myself, so you can support your claim.


In the same vein, how about you provide your proof instead? You're the one challenging everybody here and making claims, but then you push the burden of proof on others? Dude...they're not going to waste their time and send you any plans the way you've been badgering people. You "may" or "may not" have certain knowledge, but the way you interact and present said information shows that you sorely lack social skills. Let's take it down a notch here and let it be. Unless you have "proof" to offer, don't insist you're right. You've stated your opinion...we know what you believe. Just let it be. If somebody cares or wants to share information, they'll PM you.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 8:46 PM   
pilotdude57


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhallgarth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hustler58

quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Thanks my CG is with in the 10-17% wing out but as I sweep them back to make it fly with no up elevator trim the CG needs to be about 2 1/2'' behind that.
If I got what you told pilotguy I should use the wing angle of attack and or just anhedral to change the center of lift?

I'm not sure how the anhedral works but they put it in the full scale for a reason. The anhedral on the B-1 is 1.9 deg

Anhedral allows a plane to be more unstable in flight. It might sound weird but most combat aircraft have 0 anhedral or have some anhedral in wings. All modern combat aircraft are designed to be unstable in flight or less stable in spiral mode. Dihedral increases stability in spiral mode while anhedral increases instability. If the plane cannot perform drastic aerodynamic moves to avoid threats it is at a disadvantage. With anhedral a combat aircraft can twist/roll faster in a side slip or roll movement. The F-4 is a polyhedral aircraft because initial flight testing indicated some real nastiness with the flat wing design in flight. One wants the plane to be slightly unstable but not unflyable.




Anhedral causes a slight roll instability, and it also causes ADVERSE roll when there is a rudder input. As I'm sure you are all aware of if you input rudder to an aircraft with a high DIHEDRAL angle it rolls in the same direction as the rudder input, but the ANHEDRAL would roll opposite. Anhedral only causes roll instability when the aircraft's attitude is approximately wings level right side up. If the aircraft is inverted, the roll stability INCREASES. The increase in roll rate you mention with anhedral only applies when the aircraft is in a more or less wings level attitude, right side up. For example, in a 90 degree bank anhedral or dihedral makes no difference, except the ADVERSE roll would still be there with rudder inputs and anhedral, or roll in the same direction would still be there with rudder inputs and dihedral. I believe your last statement can be made more precisely by saying that an aircraft that is flyable with pilot input alone still has to be stable, but on the verge of neutral stability, and if there is computer input it can have neutral stability. Any INSTABILITY has the effect of diverging from controlled flight, which would unnecessarily overwork the computer and the flight control system.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 8:54 PM   
pilotdude57


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seraphim77


quote:

ORIGINAL: pilotdude57


quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Dude I've seen the same drawings butch is referring to and there is no washout in the f14 wings. I have even spoken with a few of the chief designers, mainteners and the people who constructed them and they have all said there was no washout in the wing.
Will you just Go AWAY!!!!! Everyone is tired of listening to your ''know it all, can never be wrong'' mentalitiy. So GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the first place speak for yourself. Did you poll everyone to see if they were ''tired of listening''? Why would you talk to so many people about wing washout in the F-14, I know from a previous post you apparently built an F-14 model, but wouldn't one source have been enough? Sounds like a claim AFTER the fact. I built an F-14 about 20 years ago, and where would I get the idea that the F-14 has washout if it doesn't? Why don't you guys E-mail me a copy of the plans you guys are talking about at pilotdude2@hotmail.com
I would like to see for myself, so you can support your claim.


In the same vein, how about you provide your proof instead? You're the one challenging everybody here and making claims, but then you push the burden of proof on others? Dude...they're not going to waste their time and send you any plans the way you've been badgering people. You ''may'' or ''may not'' have certain knowledge, but the way you interact and present said information shows that you sorely lack social skills. Let's take it down a notch here and let it be. Unless you have ''proof'' to offer, don't insist you're right. You've stated your opinion...we know what you believe. Just let it be. If somebody cares or wants to share information, they'll PM you.


You have spoken well. I will see if I can find the info.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 9:27 PM   
Seraphim77



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pilotdude57
By the way, I don't think I have been badgering people. I was just saying in the beginning that making molds of the big B-1, without first doing flight testing, and then apparently with the intent of selling kits, could end up being a money LOSING proposition, especially if someone puts out a bit smaller kit at a reasonable price, and I am not saying that their price would not be reasonable. Have you guys estimated a price yet?


Look, the point is, Butch has been working on and researching this B-1 project for years. Any prototype of a 4-jet engine aircraft is a money loosing proposition...period. Butch and Bob know this because they've spent a LOT of money! There are many on this board and across the world who have pitched in what they could financially, etc, etc. This project exists because of the love for the aircraft and hobby. For some (a lot) it is an addiction! Saying that, Butch and Bob are not worrying about the cost so much as their wives don't leave them over the expense! This is a hobby...a project...something to be fun and enjoyable...something to bring about a satisfaction in completing as very few have made a nice scale looking B-1. Any potential kit is an after thought...I'm sure. I'm sure there will be those interested, but they're not looking at this from a business profitability standpoint. It's for their enjoyment and achievement first and foremost!

So, when you've made the comments that you have and have been essentially "critical" of the design, thought behind, or planning involved, it shows a lack of grace and insensitivity to those who are giving of themselves to share this project, their time, and efforts with the world...something that they DON'T have to do. They're not building the next Stealth Bomber for the Airforce where there would be a lot of critical analysis and debate. They're just building a very nice 1/8 scale B-1 Bomber model...for personal use and satisfaction. Capiche? Let's be thankful for their work and talent and rejoice with them in their achievements! This is one of those projects that needs a lot of "positive" reinforcement to see through to the end!

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 9:36 PM   
xmarsx



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quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Butch I just wanted you to know why I have asked about CG so much and it's not to bust your balls. I am just trying to find something that works on my B1B.
If I get one of my B1B's done and bring it to Texas do you think you could look at it and tell me what I could do different. My B1B is hand shaped and hand made with hand tools no power of the CNC and detailed drawings I have gotten it to be flyable just not flying sweet with the wing in any position

heres a video of it
http://www.youtube.com/user/b1bman#p/u/0/hZAXbVDFbAM



That is pretty cool! Quite an accomplishment.

Does anyone else agree that one of the worst things about model aviation is that it's so damned hard to video?? Anyone have any tips? Could focus be manually set to infinity, maybe?

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 9:40 PM   
pilotdude57


 

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That's all well and good. I was just trying to help out with questions to make sure they cover all bases before doing a flight test. I would love to be there and hope they succeed with flying colors. If people have donated for the cause, if I build an 11 foot high R/C Space Shuttle will any of you donate to help make it a success? I would actually give you rebates on future kit sales and people could actually MAKE money on launches by putting it in the newspaper and charging $5 to watch.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 9:49 PM   
rcyogi


 

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To all involve in this proyect, Thank you! There is a lot of us that are learning a great deal because of your effords.
Keep it going! Lets keep it positive, and apploud their efford.

Pisandro

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 9:56 PM   
N622JR


 

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Gentlemen,
The quickest way to get PilotDude to go away is to ingore his post. I have done so from his first post. This has been difficult recently since most of the post revolve around him and not about what we are all really interested in, a great project from a talented designer and builder that are generous enough to share the experience with all of us.

Lets not forget that Butch has several years invested in this project, and he did not do it to spend all his time dealing with an know it all, look at me, thread stealing individual that just does not play well with others.

John



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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 10:09 PM   
Seraphim77



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quote:

ORIGINAL: udet1918
quote:

ORIGINAL: xmarsx
quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman
Butch I just wanted you to know why I have asked about CG so much and it's not to bust your balls. I am just trying to find something that works on my B1B.
If I get one of my B1B's done and bring it to Texas do you think you could look at it and tell me what I could do different. My B1B is hand shaped and hand made with hand tools no power of the CNC and detailed drawings I have gotten it to be flyable just not flying sweet with the wing in any position heres a video of it
http://www.youtube.com/user/b1bman#p/u/0/hZAXbVDFbAM

That is pretty cool! Quite an accomplishment.

Does anyone else agree that one of the worst things about model aviation is that it's so damned hard to video?? Anyone have any tips? Could focus be manually set to infinity, maybe?

I am by no means a professional videographer but I have always had my best results when taking the auto focus off and manually setting it to infinity.

Ron


Most video's are shot via consumer hand-held units with auto-focus, which is most of the problem right there. The main secret is using a fluid/quality tripod...much better than hand holding. A pro-sumer or professional video camera with a good manual zoom/focus is the 2nd part of that equation. The 3rd part is keeping the eye on the plane through the camera instead of on the plane itself!

http://www.youtube.com/user/PlaneVideoArt

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 10:20 PM   
Capjun


 

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I agree with John.
Thanks again to Butch and Bob for sharing their awsome project with us !

Tony

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 10:49 PM   
Hustler58



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capjun

I agree with John.
Thanks again to Butch and Bob for sharing their awsome project with us !

Tony

I appreciate the support. But if RCU can't block Pilotdude57 from posting I will not post again ! You will have to here about the B-1 Model from someone else. I'm not politically correct, I hate IDIOTS !

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:01 PM   
invertmast


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pilotdude57


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seraphim77


quote:

ORIGINAL: pilotdude57


quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Dude I've seen the same drawings butch is referring to and there is no washout in the f14 wings. I have even spoken with a few of the chief designers, mainteners and the people who constructed them and they have all said there was no washout in the wing.
Will you just Go AWAY!!!!! Everyone is tired of listening to your ''know it all, can never be wrong'' mentalitiy. So GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the first place speak for yourself. Did you poll everyone to see if they were ''tired of listening''? Why would you talk to so many people about wing washout in the F-14, I know from a previous post you apparently built an F-14 model, but wouldn't one source have been enough? Sounds like a claim AFTER the fact. I built an F-14 about 20 years ago, and where would I get the idea that the F-14 has washout if it doesn't? Why don't you guys E-mail me a copy of the plans you guys are talking about at pilotdude2@hotmail.com
I would like to see for myself, so you can support your claim.


In the same vein, how about you provide your proof instead? You're the one challenging everybody here and making claims, but then you push the burden of proof on others? Dude...they're not going to waste their time and send you any plans the way you've been badgering people. You ''may'' or ''may not'' have certain knowledge, but the way you interact and present said information shows that you sorely lack social skills. Let's take it down a notch here and let it be. Unless you have ''proof'' to offer, don't insist you're right. You've stated your opinion...we know what you believe. Just let it be. If somebody cares or wants to share information, they'll PM you.

By the way, I don't think I have been badgering people. I was just saying in the beginning that making molds of the big B-1, without first doing flight testing, and then apparently with the intent of selling kits, could end up being a money LOSING proposition, especially if someone puts out a bit smaller kit at a reasonable price, and I am not saying that their price would not be reasonable. Have you guys estimated a price yet?



I give up... not worth my time

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:11 PM   
udet1918



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Can anyone tell me what the block button does? It's located in the bottom of the post windows. Perhaps if everyone blocked a certain someone we would not need to read about perfection all the time!

Ron

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:16 PM   
sidgates



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I set mine Video camera on fixed focus and use a Mono-Pod to help steady the picture. Most times a Tri-pod is too clumsy.

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:25 PM   
SPLIT S



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I can - just used it and low and behold - he's gone!

Dan

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:26 PM   
theb1bman



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmarsx


quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

Butch I just wanted you to know why I have asked about CG so much and it's not to bust your balls. I am just trying to find something that works on my B1B.
If I get one of my B1B's done and bring it to Texas do you think you could look at it and tell me what I could do different. My B1B is hand shaped and hand made with hand tools no power of the CNC and detailed drawings I have gotten it to be flyable just not flying sweet with the wing in any position

heres a video of it
http://www.youtube.com/user/b1bman#p/u/0/hZAXbVDFbAM



That is pretty cool! Quite an accomplishment.

Does anyone else agree that one of the worst things about model aviation is that it's so damned hard to video?? Anyone have any tips? Could focus be manually set to infinity, maybe?

Thanks xmarsx and Thanks to my buddy Bret we got the tape and most of the flight
the one tip I can offer with a hand held camcorder is buy a better one than I did turn off the brightness and the big one is zoom in as it fly's away from the camera and zoom out as it fly's into the camera ok that's more like 3 tips

here a video I taped and my buddy Mike flying the Bone for his first time. with the brightness off on the camera. to bad the voltage regulator burned up

http://www.youtube.com/user/b1bman#p/u/37/o7o3PluwMMA

this video is of the same plane with anhedral. I had to land with wings back as it was not flyable with them out you'll see how unstable it was on take off. but I now think some of the unstableness is from not having the CG right not the anhedral. sorry the brightness is on in this video

http://www.youtube.com/user/b1bman#p/u/40/-jsiiIUJPYk

the frist video I posted is after I toke the anhedral out and changed the CG and add wight to the wing tips

and thanks a hole big bunch to Butch for taking the time to help me on this


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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:34 PM   
udet1918



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SPLIT S

I can - just used it and low and behold - he's gone!

Dan

Dan you just clicked the block button on one of his posts and that's it?

Ron

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/15/2009 11:43 PM   
SPLIT S



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That's it....

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RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/16/2009 12:07 AM   
udet1918



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SPLIT S

That's it....

Life is good! Thanks. Butch you following along? RCU doesn't have to do a thing you can take matters into your own hands.

Ron

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(in reply to SPLIT S)
       Post #: 1298

RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/16/2009 12:22 AM   
theb1bman



Posts: 177
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the red hand worked for me

_____________________________

carbon fiber

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       Post #: 1299

RE: 1/8th scale B-1B - 11/16/2009 12:25 AM   
Seraphim77



Posts: 196
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quote:

ORIGINAL: theb1bman

the red hand worked for me


"Talk to the hand!"

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