2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450

2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (Full Version)

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ShellDude -> 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/10/2006 5:19:26 AM)
Hi All, I had the pleasure (all at my own finanical expense) to benchmark the A123 Racing 2300 3S Hypersonic "Turbo" pack over the past week. A lot of what I'm publishing here is copy/pasted from a "Mini Review" thread I have going over at RunRyder. Before getting into the review itself, I want to make certain that you understand that I have no affiliation whatsoever with A123, other than being a satisfied customer. I also have no association whatsoever with RunRyder or RCUniverse, other than being a vocal community member at times :) I've been an RC Plane enthusiast for the better part of 25 years and a bit over a year ago ventured into the Mini-Helicopter arena. Since then I've learned to refer to my planes as beaters and those that still fly planes exclusively as plankers [:D] If you'd like to read the original thread in it's entirety, you can find it here. Got my 3S pack today... It "was" built like a triangular brick and there was no way it was gonna fit inside or under my canopy. I didn't bother taking pictures of the pack disassembly process. I did pay close attention to the original pack assembly though, and aside from a few crinks on the label, it was put together quite well. The M1 cells are wrapped in paper and they (A123) used some fairly heavy duty contacts tacked onto the cells. I untacked one of the contacts that freed one of the cells from the pack, then put it length wise in front of the remaining two cells. I then got some decent gauged noodle and quickly soldered it to the remaining tacked end on one cell, built up some solder on the other, and did the deed there too. I'm pretty sure I have null and voided any warranty that A123 had for my actual pack. Personally, I'm okay with this. Please do not make these types of modifications unless you're okay with absorbing the full cost of replacing the pack if you mess things up So basically it looks like so now: ==\|\| It just barely fits inside the CF HDE frame and canopy. The canopy will require two new holes because it is a bit wide. Initially I'm going to just slap it under the canopy with some velcro tie wrap because my bird is a bit nose heavy and I really don't feel like having to fine tune the balance to get it all lined up when all I'm after are some initial test results. The pack and turbo module come out to a whopping 336 grams. My AUW is 954 grams [:-] On to the goods. I have some photos. [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-001.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-006.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-007.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-009.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-010.jpg[/image] The next portion of this post focuses on my actual flight tests: Hypersonic Module Dialed in at 12V 950+ grams is nutin. My rexxy was just as solid and responsive with all the pig iron weight as it is at 733g. The power with the turbo module with two lights on (12V) was um, how do I say this. UNREAL! I'll be needing a better ESC before attempting another 12V test. The headspeed bump alone was enough to get the adreneline going like my very first figure 8. Here's the real life ACTUAL FLIGHT data, as brief it was, I'm blown away by the performance... even if these are basically 5/4C cells. [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-FIRST-CHART-12V-DATA.jpg[/image] Some observations. When you tell the turbo module that you want 12V, guess what? It gives you 12V. Gone is the "I charged my pack to 12.46V, to plug it in and watch the voltage drop to 10.5 the second I went into a hover" typical LiPo story. The BIG amp spike was when I cutover to Idle Up. The surge wasn't just noticable in this graph. I had a HUGE increase in Headspeed... much more so than I've ever experienced in an Idle up cutover before. The majority of the flight was me doing basic hover. The slight dip you see in amps (at around 55 seconds) is when I started some slow FF. The big drop in amps at the end was when the ESC cutoff. I'm convinced I had a thermal shutdown because everything else stayed lit up. Hypersonic Module Dialed in at 10.8V Headspeed settled down quite a bit. Heli was able to do FF without any issue, but after a couple good piros and collective pumps the ESC once again started to cutout. It wasn't as abrupt this time, and I had the foresight to stop measuring pack temperature and instead measure ESC temperature. First, just an amps/volts comparison: [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-SECOND-CHART-10.8V-DATA.jpg[/image] When you put ESC temperature into the mix, it becomes quite a telling story: [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-THIRD-CHART-10.8V-DATA.jpg[/image] Observations: I'm guessing due to the extra weight.. actually, pretty certain because of the extra weight, I'm drawing quite a bit more amps in the peaks. I believe because of the increased AMP draw and the ability of the pack/turbo module to sustain constant voltage that my Align ESC is starting to show it's true colors. My guess at this point that the Align ESC begins its thermal shutdown at around 110F. This is somewhat relative because the temperature probe was sitting on the heatsink and I really have no way of knowing what the actual temperature is. I'll be putting one of my EVO packs back into it some time in the not so distant future... possibly tonight, probably tomorrow, and put her thru all the paces to see if I've caused any permanent damage to the ESC. I'll be sure to setup the temperature probe in the exact same manner I had it setup for this test and I should be able to generate some kind of baseline at that point, assuming my ESC hasn't been permanently damaged. AGAIN this is all done at my own discretion. I do not hold anyone other than myself liable for any potential damage caused to any of my equipment. In the meantime, I think I need a better speed controller [:D] Conclusion My Align 35A is mounted underneath the frame with the heatsink facing down. It is an older 35A with no GOV mode and the heatsink is mounted under the heatshrink, unlike the newer ones where they slap it over it. With my normal setup I have never had any kind of thermal cutout problems. Please bear in mind that my normal setup has never drawn more than 28A and my normal LiPo packs all experience a measurable voltage sag under peak amps. There is no way possible that this ESC could handle 35A with any type of reliability given a battery pack that could deliver on its own published ratings. In other words, so much for my 11.1V 35A Speed Controller being able to sustain 30A peaks at even 10.8V. I could just as easily recreate this scenario by running two 3S packs in parallel. I have no doubt that so long as a pack can supply what our motors draw that this problem can be consistently recreated. To be fair to Align, I bet the problem exists across the majority of 11.1V speed controllers out there with integrated BECs. Please note that this situation is unique to flight operations that generate massive amp peaks... not something that typically happens in a beater plane/jet. So now I'm armed with the knowledge that just because an ESC says it's rated for 11.1V it doesn't necessarily mean it can actually handle 11.1v. For some folks, I understand that this is not breaking news. I also recognize that the BEC plays a big role in this limitation. I have an Eflight 40A ESC that I'm considering swapping in. I suspect it'll be able to handle the 10.8V setting okay but I'll be right back to square one just as soon as I try to crank up the voltage to 12V. I really want to make this setup work. Heck, I want to make it work with the 12.0v setting, but it looks like the only way I'm going to be able to do that is with a 14.4V rated ESC and a separate uBEC. I just wonder what will happen when I dial it up to 14.4V [:D][:D][:D] It's refreshing to have a battery pack that can take all that's thrown at it. I know there's some magic happening inside the "turbo" module, but at least they deliver on their rating. I'm sure someone will have 6 of these setup in series with a turbo module (or two) at some point in the near future. I wonder what'll happen to those 75A ESCs when that happens. Perhaps they'll be bit more forgiving given the absence of a BEC. I strongly encourage the T-Rex 600 guys out there to check out these cells. Go cheap... as in grab a bunch off ebay and just buy the A123 turbo module (or two) and possibly the charger. Sid Kauffman has a nice little adapter for the typical LiPo charger so don't feel like you have to lock yourself into A123 either. With that said, my hat's off to A123. You MIT guys now need to rehuddle for a bit and figure out a way to introduce a bit of miniaturization into your formula to get your weight down and you'll take the Mini-Helicopter community by storm and quite possibly rewrite the way we rank packs and speed controllers! Parting Words In case folks are having a hard time following what I mean by voltage sag, I decided it best I provide an illustration of what happens to your LiPos today when you draw up your amps. A good example of when an AMP spike occurs is when you attempt a fast climbout, or any other maneuver that makes your motor work harder. [image]http://www.shellware.com/projects/tpvsfp/images/Amps_Volts_Disparate.JPG[/image] The image on the left is a FlightPower EVO20 1800 3S battery pack. Most would call this a GEN2 pack. Surfaced in the market about 10-12 months ago. The image on the right is a ThunderPower 2000 Prolite 3S battery pack. Most would call this a GEN1 pack. Surfaced in the market 24-30 months ago. Please keep in mind that the pack manufacturers (both FlightPower and ThunderPower) state that the nominal voltage for these packs is 11.1 volts. The whole premise of my test was to determine whether or not the A123 packs when used with their Hypersonic "Turbo" module would experience the same type of voltage sag. Take a moment to review the following graphs. You'll quickly see that the A123 packs deliver on their nominal voltage rating. Unfortunately, your typical 11.1V 35A speed conroller when put under the type of load generated by a Himax 2815-3000 motor sitting in an Align T-Rex 450 helicopter is unable to handle this type of load. A123 Racing 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo @ 12V (Two Lights) [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-12V-Voltage-Amps.JPG[/image] A123 Racing 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo @ 10.8V (One Light) [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-10V-Voltage-Amps.JPG[/image] One word keeps coming to my mind.... WOW... I'm only using half the potential of the turbo module! Unfortunately, I basically moved the problem area from the battery to the speed controller. There are ways around this; those "in the know" do it all the time using more expensive speed controllers and a separate battery elimination circuit. FWIW, this exercise has been A TON OF FUN. The A123Racing Customer Support Staff (Brian) was top notch in working through some very minor delivery and cosmetic issues with me. It was a pleasure dealing with him and I look forward to seeing what the future holds for A123. Shell

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/10/2006 9:36:30 PM)
I went back to my old configuration today. I typically fly my T-Rex with a FlightPower EVO20 1800 3S pack and my AUW in this configuration is 733g. I'm happy to report that my ESC is working fine but at the same time am a bit befuddled by the numbers I got back, specifically the temperature of my speed controller this time around. Apparently my 11.1V Speed Controller initiates a shutdown based on more than just temperature, or perhaps it detects a runaway condition and then initiates the shutdown. Regardless of my ESC woes, a picture (or two) speaks a thousand words. Volts vs Amps [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-FIFTH-CHART-EVO20-11.1V-DATA.jpg[/image] Volts & Amps vs ESC Temperature [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-FORTH-CHART-EVO20-11.1V-DATA.jpg[/image] At this point I feel like A123 put me in a time machine and gave me a glimpse of things to come. Now that I'm back down to reality, I really miss that brief voyage into the future. Shell

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/12/2006 1:20:57 AM)
The Tests Continue This afternoon I had the opportunity to test just the 2300 3S pack in my T-Rex minus the Turbo module. A handful of folks throughout this process asked me to perform such a test, but because I was mainly focused on the quick and easy path to more watts I sidelined those requests and lumbered on, fighting my ESC all along the way. I'm going to start this time with just the basic numbers. I assume most following the thread know what my goal is at this point: MORE WATTS. Granted, this is actually quite a large step backwards towards reaching that goal, but a necessary one given some feedback by a couple key individuals. [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/a123/small/A123-SIXTH-CHART-9.9V-DATA.jpg[/image] Observations I'll cut to the chase. This setup is perfect for a T-Rex newbie. The extra weight of the A123 M1 3S pack actually makes the T-Rex cyclic more forgiving. Control inputs are much less abrupt. The reason why so many "pros" love the T-Rex is because it can bounce up/down left/right on the drop of a dime. Unfortunately for folks just entering the hobby, who tend to over-control their models, this has some serious consequences. It's bad enough that they struggle with the build and mechanics. My callout to A123Racing here is to offer an alternate config for your 3S pack. Line up two cells side by side and place the third one laterally in front of them. Given the drop in nominal voltage my headspeed compared to a traditional LiPo 3S battery dropped around 6,000 RPM. Basically, I went from approximately 2,400 RPM down to about 1,800. Again, another big plus for the newbie out there. A lower headspeed so long as you don't have a helicopter's head under dampened also provides for a more forgiving cyclic. If someone, lets say a newbie, were wanting to just putter around and hover, I'm going to guess they'd get around 15-20 minutes flight time out of this pack. That is just a guess. I tried the hover thing towards the end of the flight not knowing what the cutout was going to be like and I got bored with it rather quickly :) Speed Controller temperature was a non issue. My ESC leveled out at 100F about mid flight (this was a 10 minute flight) and didn't go above it once. Amps with the lower voltage were also back in a much more favorable range not once going over 25. So how about this Smaller Voltage Sag drum you've been beating Shell, you ask? It still holds true. The M1 3S pack minus the turbo module did a very good job maintaining nV. The biggest sag I was able to capture was approximately .5V, which is easily a third of what you'd see in a traditional Li* pack. Next Steps Joe (Batfish) suggested that I up the ante in another thread. I'm going to call your bet Joe and raise ya one. My next post in this thread will illustrate the results of changing out my pinion from 13T to 15T... they don't get any bigger than that on a T-Rex. I'm not so much concerned about my ESC at this point. I'm farily confident the source of my issues are from a pure voltage perspective. I think so long as I keep my voltage down it should be able to handle whatever I can throw at it. At some point down the road I'd like to revisit the Turbo module. I'm sure I'll only be able to put this off for so long before breaking down and buying a 14.4V+ ESC and uBEC. A123 -- I'm always open to donations [:)] Shell

A123 Racing -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/12/2006 2:13:16 AM)
Hello Shell, Your writeup was excellent. Thank you for providing us all your results that you measured along the way. It is great to hear that the batteries worked out so well for you once things were squared away. I am very curious to see what kind of results you get when swapping out your pinion. Thank you again for sharing your results with us. [image]http://www.a123racing.com/images/logo.gif[/image]

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/12/2006 3:16:41 AM)
Thank you A123! You've given me plenty of things to tinker with.... and I love to tinker/hack. I just did a quick Headspeed calculation with a 15T pinion. This is gonna be pretty neat :D Himax 2815-3000 motor has a Kv rating of 3000. Kv * nV * mT / gT = HS 3000 * 8.8 * 15 / 150 = 2640 Multiply that by .8 (20% loss due to numerous environmental factors) and I'm looking at a headspeed of 2,100 RPM. I may need a bigger motor :) Shell

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/12/2006 2:47:32 PM)
Shell (or A123), The price paid for a voltage boost module like the Turbo is more current draw from the battery (the watts have to come from somewhere). Since the booster will have losses this leads to shorter run times. It also may mean that there is a heat issue in the booster. Let's imagine that the booster is 85% efficient at load. Then: Pin = Pout/0.85 and Pin = ViIi, Pout = VoIo At Vo=12V we get: Ii = 12 x Io/0.85 x Vi = 14.1 x Io/Vi And power dissipated in the booster is: Pb = 0.15 x Pin. For example, at Vi = 9V and Io at 20A we get: Ii = 31.3A and Pb = 42W. Could it be that the booster is going into thermal shutdown ? Did you measure the temp on the booster ? You graphs show figures more like Vi=8.8V, Io=25A which means the booster is drawing 40A from the battery and dissipating around 53W. I cannot believe it will handle that kind of dissipation. Can the battery handle >40A continuous ? What is the max allowable dissipation for the booster and how does it behave with overload ? Don't get me wrong, I think A123 have a fascinating product, I am just trying to understand the limitations. Happy flying, Kenneth

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/13/2006 3:17:42 AM)
Someone did the math for me from an internal resistance perspective. The difference between "a native" M1 4S pack and the Turbo module at the 12V setting is approximately 80 milliohms. The numbers I was given put internal resistance when using a 3S pack with the turbo module at 120 milliohms and a mere 40 in a straight 4S setup. Incidentally, I did check the module after both shutdowns and it was hardly even warm to the touch. The ESC was another matter entirely, each time sitting in the 120-140F range. I believe the harsh reality is that when you buy an 11.1V ESC you're actually buying one that is able to sustain the load voltage of a traditional 3S pack, which is in the low 10V range. I'm in the process of purchasing a Jazz 40-6-8 ESC. It will more than adequately handle the tolerances to properly complete the test with the "Turbo" module. Just as soon as I figure out a way to sneak the $170 purchase price past the wife, I will once again pick up that side of testing. In the meantime, I'm plowing forward with swapping out my pinion. It'll be a few days so please bear with me. I've also asked A123 for some clarificaiton as to which side of the connection the published 20A max continuous amps applies to. I initially dismissed your concern but the more I think about it, I too would like to know a bit more about what is happening. One of the beauties of my flight recorder is that I can put it anywhere between the battery and the ESC. I'm tempted (since it would only take a couple minutes) to plug it in in-between the battery and turbo module to see exactly what is happening there. I may even do this prior to swapping out pinions since it should take only a few moments to get a baseline reading. Shell

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/16/2006 2:41:21 PM)
I think it would be very interesting indeed if you could repeat the test with no change other than the location of the logging connection. Then we would have empirical evidence of the input vs the output power. Of course that means stressing your poor ESC again, but with a new Jazz in the plan, maybe that's OK ? I hope you do get a chance to do this additional experiment and look forward to the results. To be honest I am not sure how to interpret the impedance figures you provided in terms of relating them to the Turbo device. If it effectively gives the battery a 120mohm impedance as seen at the output, then at Io = 25A the device would only be dissipating around 3W which seems perfectly feasible. Indeed, if it is only adding 80mohm to the battery's native 40mohm then it would only be dissipating a very tolerable 2W. However, that seems to imply a remarkably high efficiency for a DC-DC converter. It would be really great if the A123 people could respond to my questions. Perhaps my mathematics are all wrong? Perhaps my understanding of the Turbo device as a DC-DC boost converter is all wrong? I would really like to know. Perhaps they could publish a set of input+output discharge curves showing what happens at the battery with each of a 1C/5C/10C/20C continuous discharge ? The more information they can share with us the better we can understand how and where to use their product successfully.

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/16/2006 11:24:14 PM)
Well that was quite interesting. I didn't fly long, nor did I draw as many AMPs as I could have but I've completed my benchmark with the flight recorder sitting between the pack and turbo module. The reason why I quoted resistance previously was because it showed an increase between a regular 4S pack and a 3S pack "turbo'd" at a ratio of 120:40 or 3 to 1. After reading your comments regarding the potential of really high amp draw between the pack and turbo module I suspected that I would see an increase in AMPs at the same basic ratio. Well it wasn't an entirely correct assumption, but there's a significant gap regardless. [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/A123/small/A123-SEVENTH-CHART-10.8V-PRE-DATA.jpg[/image] Needless to say, I will not be plugging the Turbo module back in any time soon. Perhaps we can get some clarification from A123 now as to the specifications of this module on BOTH sides of the connection. I would really like to know the #s for nominal and peak amps on both sides. Shell

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/16/2006 11:39:15 PM)
Wow, fascinating. Thanks for doing the experiment shelldude. I believe the A123racing batteries are rated at 30C continuous/60C burst. On the 3S2300 that's 69A/128A (!!) so your figures of about 23A continuous/55A burst are well within specification for the batteries. Those dips down below 7.5V look a bit scary. If the battery is about 40mohm internal impedance then at 55A that's a 2.2V drop and those negative spikes are about a 1V drop so again, it might all be OK. We really need A123 to comment. Perhaps they are not monitoring this thread? Do you have a contact there that you can ask to review this discussion and respond ?

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/16/2006 11:41:43 PM)
I've asked the question in both this thread and the official A123 "Turbo" module questions thread. If I don't hear back from Brian by Tuesday I'll give him a call.

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/17/2006 2:03:06 PM)
Rick Page from the ezone provided me some specs. I suspect these are sitting on the main A123Racing site and I just missed them. quote: Operating Guidelines Capable of dissipating 20 watts of heat Watts = Working AMPERAGE x DESIRED VOLTAGE / 10 example: 20amps at 7.2V : 20 x 7.2 / 10 =14.4watts Max temperature is 60'C (140'F) Recommended for use in brushed cars and trucks. Please be especially careful when using the Hypersonic TurboTM in other vehicles. They imply it is 90% efficient so it is only good for 200W total. You were right at that level. Notice the last line, though. A bit more details given my average AMP draw in the previous tests: @ 10.8V 8.4A X 10.8V / 10 = 9.072W Well within the range until you look at my peaks: 30A X 10.8V / 10 = 32.4W @ 12V 10.5A X 12V / 10 = 12.6W Well within the range again until you look at my one peak: 24.9A X 12V / 10 = 29.88W So the max peak question still remains, however I suspect they intentionally used the term WORKING AMPS to cover the entire range of AMPs your setup would ever draw. Digging a little deeper I can now assume that I had two problems: @12V my ESC was unable to handle the voltage and shutdown. Had it been able to the Turbo module would've eventually shutdown. @10.8V my ESC was probably able to sustain the nV but the turbo module shutdown. It may also be a combination of the two. I will be unable to confirm both scenarios until I have my Jazz, which I'm going to buy regardless. The real question here is whether or not I want to go back down this path given the possiblity of a shutdown or worse during a high amp operation. What I really want is a turbo module that can handle my requirements. Shell

berthoud -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/19/2006 12:54:12 AM)
Would it be possible to use a 2s pack w/ Turbo mod and dial up the voltage while chaning motor KV's to match your desired optimal voltage? Seems the packs would handle it and the TREX would weigh in at a better number...

A123 Racing -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/19/2006 5:32:13 PM)
quote: The price paid for a voltage boost module like the Turbo is more current draw from the battery (the watts have to come from somewhere). Since the booster will have losses this leads to shorter run times. It also may mean that there is a heat issue in the booster. Right you are. The Turbo Module isn't magic at it does have losses, however, the efficiency is closer to 90% than 85%. When used with our 6.6V battery on the 7.2 voltage setting the efficiency is more like 96%. quote: Could it be that the booster is going into thermal shutdown ? Did you measure the temp on the booster ? You graphs show figures more like Vi=8.8V, Io=25A which means the booster is drawing 40A from the battery and dissipating around 53W. I cannot believe it will handle that kind of dissipation. By looking at the graphs provided I can be certain that the booster did not shutdown. If it is used outside its recommend temperature then it is possible for it to shutdown. This shutdown is noted by a drop in voltage which should be obvious to the user, who should discontinue use immediately. quote: Can the battery handle >40A continuous ? The battery can handle 70A continuous, however, the turbo module must remain in the working range of 20W dissipation. quote: What is the max allowable dissipation for the booster and how does it behave with overload ? 20W is the maximum continuous dissipation due to thermal constraints. As mentioned before the voltage will drop to pack voltage during thermal shutdown, however, if you continue to use it after the failsafe has occurred you could damage it. Placing the Turbo-Module in the air stream as shell had shown can increase the maximum power dissipation, but it is impossible for us to rate it this way. The Turbo Module was designed for land vehicles primarily due to its end of discharge characteristics. We understand that users may still want to use it for its performance capabilities, but we strongly urge users to understand the operating parameters before using it in a situation where a large voltage drop or power failure could result in a crash. quote: @ 10.8V 8.4A X 10.8V / 10 = 9.072W Well within the range until you look at my peaks: 30A X 10.8V / 10 = 32.4W @ 12V 10.5A X 12V / 10 = 12.6W Well within the range again until you look at my one peak: 24.9A X 12V / 10 = 29.88W These are the number based on a bench test with a max of 20W dissapation. As shell had said the turbo module did not get warm during his flight. The key with the turbo module is getting the heat out, which is where our 20w rating comes into play. We have to assume when rating these that people will put them in a place that gets little to no air what so ever, look at a touring car with the cover on. Please let me know if you have any more questions or need clarification on anything. Brian [image]http://www.a123racing.com/images/logo.gif[/image]

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/20/2006 2:47:32 PM)
Once again, very helpful Brian. I appreciate you weighing in. I recongize that I'm using the Turbo module in an unsupported platform and folks should really take notice of this before rushing out to buy one. My Jazz in on the way and I'm considering taking the 15T plunge using the native 3S pack at the same time I swap out the ESC. I flew my Rex with the 13T pinion and the 3S pack again the other day. I seriously have no complaints with the setup, short of it being a little voltage shy, which is to be expected given the nV of your batteries. I firmly believe the 3S pack is an awesome alternative for the newbie but I do not recommend someone absent a solid pack soldering background go through the conversion. Shell

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/28/2006 4:44:09 AM)
Figured I'd post a glamour shot of the T-Rex now that I've got my Jazz in it. Gearing up for some tests :) [image]http://www.shellware.com/images/CANO0055.jpg[/image]

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/29/2006 4:38:00 AM)
Brian (A123), Thank you for the information. Some more questions come to mind. Minimum guaranteed output voltage rather than regulated output ========================================== Looking at the graphs it is apparent that the turbo module does not so much regulate the output voltage to the setpoint but rather ensures that the output never falls significantly below the setpoint under load. This means that at no-load or low-load, the output voltage is as much as 2V above the setpoint. Any comments on this behaviour ? Parallel Turbo modules ? ================ Since each module is limited to 200W, but a TRex, for example, is nominally 300W with 350W burst, is it possible to run two Turbo units in parallel ? Two parallel scenarios could be possible. Scenario_A has a single high-capacity battery wired to the inputs of two or more Turbo modules which in turn have their outputs connected in parallel. Scenario_B has one battery per Turbo module with only the outputs of all Turbo modules wired in parallel. Are either of these possible and if so, which is the better design ?

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/29/2006 1:40:58 PM)
quote: is it possible to run two Turbo units in parallel ? That's put my T-Rex a bit over 1kg in weight!

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/29/2006 9:44:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShellDude quote: is it possible to run two Turbo units in parallel ? That's put my T-Rex a bit over 1kg in weight! I am wondering about their use in a slightly larger heli (eg EPv8) where proportionally, the weight penalty is less of an issue.

caotri -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (8/24/2007 4:21:58 AM)
I just very im pressed with A123. Thanks for very good test and post . I wonder why do we need to usd the turbo module? the A123 is 3,3 volt, so why don;t we just try with 15T? has any body try with 15t pinion and without turbo module? tha ks agian for so good test and charts

ShellDude -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (8/31/2007 3:16:27 AM)
Make no mistake... technically there is no reason whatsoever why you can't just increase your pinion size. My calculations told me that with a 15T pinion on the 3000kV motor I was running at the time that I'd get a very reasonable headspeed (2400+). But that wasn't the intent of my tests. I wanted to see how much I could push the turbo module by clicking a little button instead of going through the motions of disconnecting a motor, swapping pinions, remeshing, etc to increase my headspeed. For that reason, I consider the test to be a success. I was very pleased to see my little 3000kV motor spinning my blades at 3000 RPM with a 13T pinion.

caotri -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/9/2007 9:22:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShellDude Make no mistake... technically there is no reason whatsoever why you can't just increase your pinion size. My calculations told me that with a 15T pinion on the 3000kV motor I was running at the time that I'd get a very reasonable headspeed (2400+). But that wasn't the intent of my tests. I wanted to see how much I could push the turbo module by clicking a little button instead of going through the motions of disconnecting a motor, swapping pinions, remeshing, etc to increase my headspeed. For that reason, I consider the test to be a success. I was very pleased to see my little 3000kV motor spinning my blades at 3000 RPM with a 13T pinion. Year, thank verymuch for your test , it gove me idea on how I setit up. My dewalt pack will be here by next weeka nd I will try to run it at direct 3S with 13t and 15t pinion and may exchange inform to you guys. Thanks for so good test and chart agian. cao tri

caotri -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/18/2007 4:03:09 AM)
Hi, I tried the trex V2 with 3S a123 and 15T pinon. Fisrt I have to modify the battery tray so it can make heli balance . i place battery stand as the trex 600. The heli is well balance but it is 60 grams estra since the 3S pack is 230grams ( 170 grams lipo pack) My config: Trex V2- 325 pro rotor pbale Motor JGF 500TH - 3380kV. ESC cc35. 15T pinion. I get headspeed of 2400rpms. I go FF fly and it is 12 minutes in total, the clime up is good even at the end of 12 minutes fly.. I charge the pack with 2050 mAh put back to back. However it make heli heavy and not really smooth in fly. I be leave that if I make better battery tray and keep battery in place, no vibration, and replace with fiber carbon blade it will fly sport well. How ever, I refer the light, flexible and smooth fly heli, so I buy lipo again for my trex. i also try a123 on esmart - esky with 7S1P and itis well. I will try it with 6S config on HDX500 by this weekend or next week when new frame arrived. This is recoredr chart of trex V2 - 3S A123 direct

kgfly -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/18/2007 4:38:32 AM)
Thanks for sharing that info. I have 3 DeWalt packs on the way and have been wondering about running 3s or 4s on my T450 (430L-3550kv, 12t). I will be very interested to see the results of your testing 6s on the HDX500, I have my eye on that heli ;) I plan to try 6s in my Logo10 where I am currently running 5s emoli.

hairyllama -> RE: 2300 3S Hypersonic Turbo Pack - Align T-Rex 450 (9/18/2007 3:20:01 PM)
I have a pigeon 450(very nice t-rex clone) with 12t(stock) pinion and 3500rpm/v 310w motor... works great on 3s lipo but is pretty crappy on 3s a123/dewalt. Not enough lift and head speed way to low. I have a 14t pinion coming in, hopefully that will fix the problem...

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