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What after the Lama V3 - 9/28/2006 8:36 PM   
J-Cube



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From: Farmington Hills, MI, USA
Status: offline 		I can fly a Lama V3 with ease but I can't get a Blade CP off the ground without destroying it. My question is, what can I fly indoors that has a single set of blades, something FP probably, and I can fly even though I can't fly a Blade CP.

I was thinking about the Micron V2 FP. I'd like some input about that and any other small heli that can be flown indoors.

Thanks.

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 9/30/2006 11:04 AM   
reman



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From: bristol, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Have a look at this, www.amerang-group.com/product_details.asp?id=2171&menu=1
Its a RC SYSTEM Minicopter v2. its pretty much the same as the Ripmax Saber ( some parts are even interchangeable). It comes in a metal case with everything you need to get into the air (exempt 8x AA battery's for the TX). I got one to play with about 3 months ago and I love to fly it.

It does need a few things doing to it to get it to fly really well though,

As stock the center of gravity is to far back and no amount of moving the battery forward will fix it ( this didn't matter to me as I knew I was going to use lipo's on it, so I mounted 2 carbon tubes near the top of the u/c struts to put a 2 cell battery on).

The stock fly bar and paddles are a bit fragile, the carbon fly bar snaps in a crash and the paddles snap off the mounting clamps, The T-Rex fly bar and paddles fit strait on and work great. I also put some weights on the fly bar to make it more docile in slight breezes.

Also, (though not totally necessary) put a head brace on it, I made an adjustable one ( A different idea that I haven't had time to test yet ) using stuff I had on the bench.

I also have a T-Rex x/xl/se hybrid , a Mk 1 MS Hornet, a modded Lama and a Twister cp v2, but I fly the Minicopter the most because I still crash sometimes, The Minicopter was cheap and almost disposable so I can throw it around the sky without worrying about a crash and it's proved its self to be a LOT tuffer than it looks

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< Message edited by reman -- 9/30/2006 11:07 AM >

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 9/30/2006 3:04 PM   
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Status: offline 		I've had the same question for what comes after my LamaV3 / Robbins 22. It seems the Esky products are a good mix of quality and value, I've had my eye on a fixed pitch heli such as the Esky Honey Bee. I found a review here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444936

When you go the the Hobby Lobby site I see the model has been upgraded to version 3, now with lipo batteries:
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/honeybee3.htm
Honey Bee Mk 3 Electric RC Helicopter
NEW! Included 2-cell LiPoly battery doubles your flight time
Introductory SPECIAL! ..... $ 158.00

Also, look at the bottom of the page, they have a nice upgrade for stronger landing gear:
NEW! Tough nylon and aluminum landing gear with tail boom support
EBT750 Assembled Upgrade Landing Gear for Honey Bee 3 ..... $ 27.50

Here is the link to the factory site:
http://www.twf-sz.com/english/products.asp?prodid=0003

I'd be interested on feedback if anyone has tried this model?

Update: I just found it at a great price:
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=W262062


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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 9/30/2006 5:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		Being a newbie myself, I'm sure many of you have the same questions. I assumed that the ONLY way to go was fixed pitch when moving up from the Lama Coaxial. But as I started to research it I find some don't carry the Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch, but there are alot of CCPM birds around.
So hmm... fixed pitch or CCPM (Cyclic Collective Pitch Mixing , I've just gone from what the heck is that to okay I understand it is three servos set at 120 degrees to each other that allows the electronic controls to vary collective pitch.)

I have found two references to the pros and cons (yes, thank you I searched the forums). This reference says:
Beginner or expert - The Twister CP V2 is designed for newcomers through to expert pilots. Beginners will find that controlling a collective pitch CCPM helicopter is markedly easier than a fixed pitch helicopter - despite the more complex control system.
http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/detail.php?JPNO=6600025&activepage=1

and this reference:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=585
Cyclic Collective Pitch Mixing (CCPM) control uses electronic mixing to affect the necessary swashplate inputs instead of complex linkages. The Blade's servo layout with 3 short linkages is typical of the simplicity of CCPM. Control movements are precise and quick, owing to the impressive servo resolution. Collective pitch control using a moving flybar design further reduces linkage. Many micro helicopters employ fixed main rotor blade pitch, relying on varying the head speed to ascend and descend, which does not give precision control.

and this reference:
http://www.masportaviator.com/ah.asp?CatID=15&ID=127
Fixed-pitch models work well in a hover since they need a relatively high head speed to stay aloft. Predictably, push them into forward flight and the lift generated from the oncoming airflow causes the models to climb.
To maintain a desired altitude while flying forward, the throttle has to be reduced. This, in turn, decreases the head speed, therefore decreasing stability. This flying peculiarity is uncomfortable to say the least.
Forward flight with a helicopter is best performed with one that has the ability to adjust the blades’ pitch angle. This is called Collective Pitch mixing. The advantage is that stability can be maintained even while lift is gained because the pitch angle of the rotating blades can be reduced, thus reducing lift while the head speed is kept at a comfortable speed.
But, the article comes with a warning...
What do I mean by “a bit of helicopter experience”? Even though the Blade package’s price spells “try me,” it is not intended for the first-time helicopter pilot. That is not without good reason; the control response is sensitive.

and this reference:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9507
Our fellow Blade CX flyers asking the same upgrade questions:
Blade CP or CP Pro after time with CX?
"I started with Blade CP and then I had to go back to Esky HB FP. Yes, FP is easier. Consider Esky HB FP - it is durable for beginners. I did not have to replace a pair of blade."

Hmm... decisions, decisions, well maybe my first advice for the Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch is the way to go???

What do others of you recommend for us newbies?


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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 10:34 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zephyros

!QUOT!I started with Blade CP and then I had to go back to Esky HB FP. Yes, FP is easier. Consider Esky HB FP - it is durable for beginners. I did not have to replace a pair of blade.!QUOT!

Hmm... decisions, decisions, well maybe my first advice for the Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch is the way to go???

What do others of you recommend for us newbies?




I start off with a Blade CP like J-Cube does. Face the same problem, can't get off the ground without destroying it.
I almost give up on heli. Then I saw this Lama V2 thread here and decides I should get one too try since every one say it is so easy to fly. After I can hover the Lama V3 very well I went on to converting my Blade CP to a FP using spare parts of the Esky Honey Bee FP and controlling with the Lama TX. What I end up with is very much like Zephyros, a Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch. And this bird now hovers pretty well.

So I agreed with Zephyros the Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch is the way to go.

But this Bee is twice as big as a Lama, and much less stable as a Lama so I don't think its good for flying in the house unless you have a very big house with a lot of room space.

The micron V2 from www.precisionheli.com looks real temping to me, to bad I can't find it in my LHS here.






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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 11:44 AM   
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Status: offline 		I went from a Lama2 to a Blade CP. I was very impressed with the BCP in the beginning, and recommended it to many people. I now regret that I recommended it. It is simply one of the hardest to fly CP helis out there.

My third heli was a Falcon 3D from hobby-lobby.com, and WOW! SO much smoother and controllable than a BCP. I now wish I had skipped the BCP completely, and had gone with the falcon from the beginning.

The BCP has two advantages: It is farily tough, and can take some abuse. Also, it uses a simple design, so it is fairly easy to work on and maintain. However, the flight characteristics are just awful IMO. I'm going to get mine back into top shape, and sell it very soon. After moving up to the falcon, I don't find the BCP enjoyable to fly at all any longer.

The only down-side I can think of for going to the falcon as your first CP heli is that it does have a fairly complex design, which is harder to repair than a BCP or similar, but it is such a good flier, that I think it is a good trade-off...

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 3:56 PM   
J-Cube



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Status: offline 		You guys sound just like me, hdellk and ct420 ! I agree with:
quote:

I was very impressed with the BCP in the beginning, and recommended it to many people. I now regret that I recommended it. It is simply one of the hardest to fly CP helis out there.


and

quote:

After I can hover the Lama V3 very well I went on to converting my Blade CP to a FP using spare parts of the Esky Honey Bee FP and controlling with the Lama TX.


The last one is something my Mom suggested I should!

Hey ct420, how easy is it to fly the Falcon? I too have seen this heli but I don't know it I could control something like that.

hdellk, I want to know step by step how you converted your Blade CP into a Blade FP. How much did it cost? How well does it fly? Right now my blade is in flyable condition even though the tail boom is held together with electrical tape because it shattered in the middle when I struck a fence (my last attempt to get that crappy thing off the ground out of anger of not being able to fly something).

Zephyros, I've read much about CP vs. FP and I've made my choice; if a can find real people that flew the Lama and the Blade and found a better way to fly a single bladed heli (if that came out sounding like I don't like the Lama, well, I love my Lama so there), then I want to try it if I hear that it works.

Thank you all, now respond!

< Message edited by J-Cube -- 10/1/2006 4:00 PM >

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 4:14 PM   
Zephyros


 

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Status: offline 		Okay, we have one vote for FP and one vote for CP.

I'm wondering which helis can we start out FP and later convert to CP, I think I read the Blade CP allowed that in a different thread some time ago as well, not withstanding the above approach? I'm not saying Blade CP is the answer, I just give it as an example I've heard of for conversion.

Nevertheless, I'm hoping some one with experience on both will jump in here and give the pros and cons of starting on FP vs. CCPM. Remember this is a stepping stone from a LamaV3.

ct420, can you please explain more what contributes to your Falcon 3D "smoother and controllable", is it CCPM or?

If I go CP, the value still looks good with Esky, they have a belt drive model that sound good:

Build Log - ESky Belt CP BareBones build and setup....
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569550

Factory Site:
http://www.twf-sz.com/english/products.asp?prodid=0157

Japan site with feature details:
http://www.hobbyjapan2000.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=E014-BELT-CP

Available From:
E-Sky Belt-CP ARTF (Kit/Brushless Motor/ESC/Servos/GYRO)
http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=1744


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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 5:29 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hi J-Cube,

Although I manage to convert the Blade CP to a FP, I would not recommend you to do the same. At lease not the way I did it.

What I did is, I took out the CP main rotor head assembly, buy every piece of the FP head assembly and assemble the FP Rotor head. The flybar and paddle is used back. Next I remove the right servo out, move the left servo forward( there is a forward slot for placing the servo) and connect it to channel 1 of the 4 in 1. This way the left servo will be at 90deg to the front servo which remains where it is. The servo to swash plate push rods need to be change as well.
I have to add a switch in Lama TX for the Aileron to switch form rev to normal as its now opp of the LAMA.
It fly well as compare to when its a Blade CP as I am finally able to hover it pretty well.

What I suggest you do is to buy the ESKY Honey Bee Kit and transfer the electronics over. This frame has the left servo mount at 90deg from the front servo. So the direction of control is the same as the LAMA, no need for the TX mod.




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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 5:32 PM   
hdellk



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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 5:39 PM   
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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 6:35 PM   
J-Cube



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Status: offline 		Thanks but if you check the ads you'll find that I decided to part my Blade CP out so I can buy something else.

I want to hear more about the Honey Bee FP, Falcon 3D and the Micron V2 if possible.

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 9:00 PM   
ct420


 

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Status: offline 		I was able to hover the BCP for a full pack only 3 or 4 days after purchasing it. However, it never was very predictable. One time, it would fly pretty well, then the next, it would jump and wag all over the place. I crashed it more times than I can count, usually due to some mechanical problem, rather than my novice skills.

The collective would randomly stick, or it would start yo-yoing up and down. The tail was all over the place only a few flights after getting it dialed in, etc. etc...

I've had the falcon for a few weeks now, and haven't even almost crashed it once. It flies EXACTLY the same way every time I fire it up. The collective is smooth and precise, and it just WANTS to fly. The heading hold gyro, and shaft driven tail rotor are a fine combo which make controlling the tail a pleasure. It goes exactly where I put it, and it STAYS there!

It is superior to a BCP in every way, and only costs a bit more ($279.00 is what I paid)

The falcon is still a chinese RTF heli, which means that it does have some draw-backs. The screws used to assemble it are fairly low quality. Also, when you pull it out of the box, you have to go over the whole thing, and make sure all screws are tightened properly, as they don't do a very good job of assembling them from the factory. Also, it is absolutely imperative that you put loctite on all metal to metal screw connections. People who neglect to do these things have reported major problems such as blades flying off in flight, etc.

The first falcon I bought had stripped motor mount threads from the factory. I notified hobby-lobby.com about this, and they sent me a replacement falcon, which I've not had any problems with. There have been many reports of similar experiences from others, but once you get a good one, it is a real pleasure to own and fly. Also, hobby-lobby.com has probably the best tech support of any online retailer, so they will make sure you are satisfied...

There is a thread on the Hobby-Lobby Falcon 3D (aka Art-Tech AT600) here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4436222/mpage_5/key_falcon/tm.htm

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/1/2006 9:04 PM   
ct420


 

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Status: offline 		Ohyeah - forgot to mention...

The Falcon does not use ccpm for the control. It is the 'standard' style head control, which is called HDE, I think...

I've heard that it is a shogun clone. After looking at pictures of the shogun online, I do see many similarities, so I think that it may be the case, but not sure...

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/2/2006 6:56 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hdellk
...
So I agreed with Zephyros the Esky Honey Bee Fixed Pitch is the way to go.

But this Bee is twice as big as a Lama, and much less stable as a Lama so I don't think its good for flying in the house unless you have a very big house with a lot of room space.

The micron V2 from www.precisionheli.com looks real temping to me, to bad I can't find it in my LHS here.


Anybody know about the "hoverfly", sold at Snelflight (http://www.snelflight.co.uk/) or Helihobby (http://www.helihobby.com/)?
It is small and FP, but because of its "unique" blade arrangement, is supposed to fly like a more stable and larger helicopter (a general rule I have heard is that all else being equal, the smaller the helicopter, the less stable it is).

It does have the downside of being tethered, but given my problems with batteries, this may not be so bad.

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/3/2006 7:16 AM   
hdellk



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This do look kind of interesting. But to me, having a wire hanging to the ground means a NO NO.
Imagine while flying over the chair or table... Careful the wires going to get caught ...
IMO the freedom to fly in the air is more important then the battery live.

I like the idea of able to fly in an non-conventional way but I don't like its look with a heli body. I think they should make it in the shape of an UFO that would be nicer IMO.


quote:

ORIGINAL: flying-llama

Anybody know about the "hoverfly", sold at Snelflight (http://www.snelflight.co.uk/) or Helihobby (http://www.helihobby.com/)?
It is small and FP, but because of its "unique" blade arrangement, is supposed to fly like a more stable and larger helicopter (a general rule I have heard is that all else being equal, the smaller the helicopter, the less stable it is).

It does have the downside of being tethered, but given my problems with batteries, this may not be so bad.



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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/3/2006 8:08 PM   
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Status: offline 		When I want a heli, I want a hobby grade machine!

I really want to know every last detail about the Falcon 3D. I'm very intrigued and I want it know.

I'm starting to get some money out of my Blade CP. Check the ads on this site to see my parts. Keywords include S75 and bare bone.

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/3/2006 11:40 PM   
J-Cube



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Status: offline 		I just remembered, I haven't heard about the Honey Bee Mk 3 in a long time. I'd like to hear more about that too!

Thanks all, this is really helpful!

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/3/2006 11:41 PM   
ct420


 

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Status: offline 		I like the Falcon a lot. After about 40 flights now, I haven't crashed it at all, or even come close. It is very well behaved, and quite stable. TONS of power, and very smooth operation.

I plan to change out most of the cheapie screws with good hardended and stainless ones soon, which I think is really it's only weak point...


Lately, I've been taking it out into the front yard, and hovering it a few inches off the ground in idle-up mode. Then, I punch in full throttle. That thing will jump straight up about 3x higher than the roof of my house in about a 1/2 second It's BIG fun...

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/4/2006 9:36 PM   
J-Cube



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Status: offline 		I would soil myself if I ever did that!

Anyways, thanks I really, really want this heli now. More input por favor.

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/5/2006 12:07 AM   
J-Cube



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From: Farmington Hills, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Oh, I forgot, with the holding head gyro, what type of gyro is it? How much does the gyro help? I'd assume its really worth the extra bucks to have a holding head gyro, right?

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RE: What after the Lama V3 - 10/5/2006 1:26 AM   
ct420


 

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Status: offline 		The gyro is an Art-Tech brand (same brand as the heli). Yes, it is heading hold, and works quite well. You put the tail where you want it, and it stays right there, no matter what...

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