RE: ama rule

RE: ama rule
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RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 6:24:32 PM

KidEpoxy

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From: San Antonio, TX, USA
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quote:

That's why they are called PROFESSIONALS. Are you a professional paintballer shooting with a professional RC flyer with a permit and rules and regs?

ok, so a professional can do it with a permit & regulation?
Is that what makes it Not-Reckless, regulation & rules & proving you know the rules to the permit issuing agency?

So what happens if a guy takes the rules, and obeys them without a permit?
IF the AMA had 50 rules to safely conduct a RC Gunnery Events, and you obeyed all of them at your club, would that be reckless?

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Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 51

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 6:51:31 PM

Hossfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timothy thompson

does anybody know any ama officers to ask this or show them the thread. its an interesting question

If you are really interested contact YOUR AMA DVP; www.amadistrictvii.org

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Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
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(in reply to timothy thompson)

Post #: 52

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 7:34:55 PM

STLPilot

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quote:

ok, so a professional can do it with a permit & regulation?
Is that what makes it Not-Reckless, regulation & rules & proving you know the rules to the permit issuing agency?

Do you think they just hand out permits for fireworks out of vending machines? You don't think there is paperwork involved and that the company presenting the fireworks show has taken the necessary steps in making sure that their guidelines are met or exceeded thus to satisfy their insurance company for that particular firework event? You don't think the person responsible for the event also has some kind of insurance just in case they do not handle their crowd or give the fireworks company the wrong information? This is all general knowledge stuff Kid.

You think you can light off fireworks without having millions of dollars in liability insurance backing you up??? No, you cannot, this is why they don't hand you the permit until they see the insurance. How much liability insurance is backing you up when you unload rounds on a RC airplane? You think 2.5 million. HA! In your dreams.

quote:

So what happens if a guy takes the rules, and obeys them without a permit

Nothing until something happens and he or she is trying desperately seeking someone to bail them out from losing their money and property for doing something stupid because they didn't have any insurance to cover them.

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Here At The Wall

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Post #: 53

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 7:40:09 PM

Gremlin Castle

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From: Arlington, TX, USA
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And which code would that be?

How about the novel concept of letting the people involved make the decision based on their location, skills,type of aircraft, supervision,potential liability, and the knowledge that they will be held responsible for any negative outcome? They will also get credit for any success.
There are more than enough organizations and demagogs trying to save people from themselves all using the basis that they know better than the people on site what is best for them.
What works for some in one location can be a disaster for others. But, that is no reason to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator because some can't have an equal outcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: timothy thompson

there is a post in the crash section about club members purposly shooting down a trainer with airsoft pellet guns isnt this againt ama code

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Post #: 54

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 7:41:10 PM

Gremlin Castle

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From: Arlington, TX, USA
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And which code would that be?

How about the novel concept of letting the people involved make the decision based on their location, skills,type of aircraft, supervision,potential liability, and the knowledge that they will be held responsible for any negative outcome? They will also get credit for any success.
There are more than enough organizations and demagogs trying to save people from themselves all using the basis that they know better than the people on site what is best for them.
What works for some in one location can be a disaster for others. But, that is no reason to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator because some can't have an equal outcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: timothy thompson

there is a post in the crash section about club members purposly shooting down a trainer with airsoft pellet guns isnt this againt ama code

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Up elevator is not always your friend.

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Post #: 55

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 7:48:43 PM

F106A

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From: Clifton, NJ, USA
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Better yet, contact HQ directly, they'll answer the question and resolve the issue once and for all.

(in reply to timothy thompson)

Post #: 56

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 8:01:40 PM

ArCeeFlyer

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From: York, PA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

... You think you can light off fireworks without having millions of dollars in liability insurance backing you up??? No, you cannot, this is why they don't hand you the permit until they see the insurance. How much liability insurance is backing you up when you unload rounds on a RC airplane? You think 2.5 million. HA! In your dreams. ...

That's an extremely lopsided comparison. Fireworks involve shooting hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds of incendiary and explosive ordinance above the heads of thousands of spectators. Yes, I can see why they would want 2.5 million. Paintballing a slow R/C trainer horizontally away from a few dozen spectators standing well behind the line of fire of non-incendiary blobs of paint. I see the odds of someone getting hurt at a fireworks show far, far greater than a paintball R/C shoot and people rarely get hurt at fireworks shows due to the fireworks. As with any kind of R/C activity, as long as common sense and the proper safety precautions are observed, it is just as safe as walking down the neighborhood sidewalk. The alarmist attitude is becoming very alarming.

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Post #: 57

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 8:37:04 PM

STLPilot

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quote:

I see the odds of someone getting hurt at a fireworks show far, far greater than a paintball R/C shoot and people rarely get hurt at fireworks shows due to the fireworks.

Terrific, that the way you see the world in your eyes. Would you stick your kid or nephew on the on the flight line next to you while your flying your plane? Would you stick that same kind on the flight line during one of these safe paint ball events where the planes always fly away from the crowd?

A lot of people thought Michael Jackson was innocent. Would those same people let their kids spend the nite in his house?

Also at the end of the day the fireworks company will be insured, no matter if it's safe or not. If someone gets hurt of killed, the owner is still going to home and sleep safely and quietly in his bed, s__t happens and that's why god invented insurance, to protect. Don't most of you guys only see the AMA as an insurer anyhow?

Will the guy flying the plane allowing someone to shoot paintballs at it be insured if what possilby can't happen, does happen? I would say no flippin way, under any circumstances under the current AMA safety code. Remember, this is the AMA forums, not Jackass The Movie forum.

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Post #: 58

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 8:37:15 PM

KidEpoxy

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the common theme has again surfaced:
We ask STL a very direct question, and we get chat about everything under the sun except the question we keep asking him.

One More Time:
A long time back, flying combat with RC planes was reckless. A RX cound get killed & you have a Out of Control RC flapping around. Then some folks came up with a set of precautions & safety measures to reduce the risks of damage or injury from out of control planes. They dont wear helmets because that prevents planes from getting Outof Control, they wear helmets because it prevents planes that are out of control from hurting them. They took a reckless activity and added a safety rule set to minimize frequency & severity of planes damaging things&folks.

They came up with rules to make Combat not reckless, they can come up with risk management & risk abatement to make RC Gunnery as non-reckless as RC Combat.

STL- Can there be any amount of rules governing Safe RC Gunnery Events from the AMA that would make the event not-reckless?

As for Permitted Professionals, seems if some podunk group of individuals across america(ama) can say which 55lb planes are safe, we can just look to a new organization, the Society of RC Gunnery to publish Safety Standards & Issue Permits for RC Gunnery: Stadards that meet & far exceed the AMA standards for being around planes that can & will loose RX (combat). There... just abide by the standard safety rules, take the online test to show a working knowlege of them for your permit/waiver from the SoRCG, and you are not reckless in the eyes of the AMA... since the AMA is not the authourity on RC Gunnery Events but the SoRCG would be. Wanna have a RC Gunnery Event at your next club Combat Weekend? The ama club CD better make sure he is up to snuff on SoRCG standards, get a SoRCG Event Permit (free), and enforce/observe the safety requirements set forth by the SoRCG.
----- That sound Reckless? It sounds Regulated, Trained, & Permitted to me.

< Message edited by KidEpoxy -- 10/4/2006 8:38:10 PM >

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to ArCeeFlyer)

Post #: 59

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 8:47:01 PM

STLPilot

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Why do you keep comparing RC firing range to RC combat? Read the combat rules and you will see they do not match one another in the least bit. They are as close as u-line is to soaring. Are you trying to create a bad rap for the combat guys, because that's what your doing.

quote:

STL- Can there be any amount of rules governing Safe RC Gunnery Events from the AMA that would make the event not-reckless?

How the heck do I know. I'm not an AMA legislator or policy maker. Go ask your district rep that question, their more well suited.

quote:

the Society of RC Gunnery to publish Safety Standards & Issue Permits for RC Gunnery: Stadards that meet & far exceed the AMA standards for being around planes that can & will loose RX (combat). There... just abide by the standard safety rules, take the online test to show a working knowlege of them for your permit/waiver from the SoRCG, and you are not reckless in the eyes of the AMA... since the AMA is not the authourity on RC Gunnery Events but the SoRCG would be. Wanna have a RC Gunnery Event at your next club Combat Weekend? The ama club CD better make sure he is up to snuff on SoRCG standards, get a SoRCG Event Permit (free), and enforce/observe the safety requirements set forth by the SoRCG.

But will this SORCG also provide insurance, or just standards? Standards won't pay a lawsuit, will it? Rules shmools, where is the insurance? An insurance company will only provide insurance after a thorough analysis, been through it many times for custom quotes.

Let me ask you something Kid, do you own anything? Have you ever been sued before? Do you know what happens when you get sued and you have equity in something tangible? Take a wild guess.

< Message edited by STLPilot -- 10/4/2006 8:52:34 PM >

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Post #: 60

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 8:59:42 PM

ArCeeFlyer

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Looks like it always come down to the courts. If something bad did happen at a paintball R/C shoot and AMA says no to the insurance based on SC #3, then the courts will be the ones to decide and the lawyers from both sides will be all over SC #3 like flies on you know what to prove or disprove if there was any recklessness on the club's part. I think this all points out that AMA needs to do some more clarifying on SC #3. And clubs doing this event should leave nothing to chance on safety precautions. I wonder if other activities like crazy fun fly events would end up under the scrutiny of SC #3 if something bad happened. It could go on and on.

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Alan - YARCC (www.yorkrc.com) Admin/Editor (Say What?!)
AMA 338508

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Post #: 61

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 9:11:19 PM

Sport_Pilot

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From: Acworth, GA, USA
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quote:

Try to find one professional fireworks event in the USA that was fired off with a permit and a written set rules and guidelines for said fireworks. That's why they are called PROFESSIONALS. Are you a professional paintballer shooting with a professional RC flyer with a permit and rules and regs?

There are codes and license for shooting off professional fireworks. I think it is an NFPA code and most areas adopt this.

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Post #: 62

RE: ama rule - 10/4/2006 9:23:48 PM

KidEpoxy

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From: San Antonio, TX, USA
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quote:

to prove or disprove if there was any recklessness on the club's part. I think this all points out that AMA needs to do some more clarifying on SC #3. And clubs doing this event should leave nothing to chance on safety precautions.

Amen to that.

STL- you really see no similartity in an event that can and does cause planes to go out of control, and an event that can & will cause planes to go out of control? Can't draw the parrallel there?

Inurance? Sure, I wasnt reckless, so I've got AMA insurance.
Own anything? There was a reason I got a Nevada Shell Corp to hide assets in, I lived in california & didnt want to lose everything over spilled coffe or a wet floor or lost wages of a burgler I may shoot.

Me?
I'm not Tim the OP claiming this was Verboten
I'm not the guys doin the shootin
I'm just wondering how some dangerous things are ok, and some arent, just by if it has a AMA pdf.... and whynot have that PDF written? I'm just wondering why we let the insurance co use the vague & broad phrasing of anything Reckless will void the insurance, without any definition as to what is reckless, and by who's standards? Pilot? CD? Club? AMA? Insurance lawyer's? yup, I bet it just happen's to be the lawyers.

anyhoo
Is it against the code? Not if you dont do it recklessly.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to ArCeeFlyer)