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RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/19/2006 1:00:37 PM   
Dean Bird



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From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zope_pope

So I have been practicing the basic and i am starting to get a feel for it, but I was wondering, what is allowed for in between manuevers? Say you mess up on a half roll and you pull out into a crooked line not parallel to the box. can you sneak some rudder in? Is there any correcting allowed? I can exit the manuevers at the correct altitude,, but it seems I am having issues with rolling out exactly 180 degrees. Thanks!


Hi Zope,

I hope you had a chance to download and read the "IMAC Tips" that we gave a link to earlier. In "Topic #4 - You must know the judging criteria" the question on scoring is addressed. You asked "what is allowed for in between manuevers?". The easy answer is nothing. The entire flight is judged starting the instant you start your first maneuver until you make it back to wings level at the end of the last maneuver. As you reach wings level at the end of a maneuver, the judging has begun on the next maneuver. There are no free corrections to get you flying the correct direction. It will be deducted.

You ask if you can "sneak some rudder in". Absolutely!!!!! There isn't a second during a flight that I'm not putting some sort of input in. And tons of that is rudder. My flying buddy wore a transmitter pot out on his 9Z. It was the rudder pot, not the aileron or elevator. That tells you how much sneaking is going on.

For your half rolls that you're missing and causing you to "pull out into a crooked line not parallel to the box", that's discussed in "Topic #10 - Get help with your practice". If you're folling fast, you might try slowing the roll down a little to make it easier to stop at the correct rotation. If you miss it, the mistake in roll will cause a mistake in yaw when you pull your next radius. It sounds like you found that out already. If the roll mistake is slight, you can sneak a little aileron and rudder in as you pull the radius to make sure you come out on the correct heading after the pull. That's some advanced skills. Keep working on getting the lines correct, the radiuses smooth, the rolls centered and the correct amount of rotation, and you'll do great!!

Good luck with your 2007 season!!

Dean

< Message edited by Dean Bird -- 12/19/2006 1:01:58 PM >


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(in reply to zope_pope)
       Post #: 26

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/19/2006 3:47:00 PM   
zope_pope



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Hey Dean,

Thanks so much for the advice. I haven't had a chance to read the IMAC tips, but I'll definitely go check that out this afternoon. It looks like the weather hates me though. I took Tomorrow till Next wednesday off to go flying since the wife would be out of town, but they are predicting almost a foot of snow at the field! Maybe I can talk to someone who drives a plow truck. Anyhow, I'll keep practicing, maybe decrease my aileron throws and keep trying to get it. Thanks!

Adam

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       Post #: 27

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/19/2006 7:51:54 PM   
Divesplat



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Hey Adam.

Like Dean said, take a little time and while theweather is bad, read the RULES. There is absolutely no way, you can practice or fly the sequece correctly unless you know what is expected. This is a mistake many pilots make, then wonder why the zeroed or were scored badly on anything. Typically they get mad and quit because someone somewhere erroneously told them something that isn't true and they believed them. Here are some highlights but read through it from the IMAC website aswell. I print out the rules, put them in a binder and carry them with me to contests for reference and my own piece of mind.

1) 1 pt is deducted per 10degrees off (this means wings level, level flight, missing part or overrotating on any maneuver rolls, spins, snaps etc etc)
2) The entire flight is judged (if you come out of a manuever with wings canted 20 degrees heading out 20 degrees and pinch the bottom of the manuever by 20 degrees you have lost 6 pts on the end of that manuever regardless of how the rest looked. Now the interesting thing is if you don't correct the wings, and heading, you already start the next manuever minus 4 points because the wings aren't level and you are not flying parallel to the flight line.) Spend time, lots of it flying straight, wings level in any and all wind conditioins. Although boring, this will add many points to your score if you can fly wings level, add a little rudder and make it look like you're flying straight and level between maeuver.
3) All radii in a manuever are set by the first radii. Practice making all the loops, 1/2 loops, 1/4 loops the same size on each manuever
4) By making the radii a little bigger, you have more time as you exit any vertical manuever to exit level and straight.
5) Center the rolling/snap portions of any up line in the center. Many pilots, especially as they are learning, perform the rolling element way way too soon. For example, Hammer head with 1/2 roll up and down. Many pilots I saw this summer, even Intermediate pilots would pull to the upline, within 50 ft perform the 1/2 roll, then drive the hammer head up another 100 ft. They actually doubled the upline length after the roll, 1pt per 10 degrees means, if the judge is fair a 5 pt deduction redardless of how pretty it looked, then perform the hammer, then most will do the 1/2 roll early on the downline and let the plane come back down much farther after the 1/2 roll, again, major deduction. So the Hammer may have been pretty as peach but still get a 0-2 for not centering the rolling portion. To do this well you really need a second set of eyes behind you while you practice.

Lastly, don't get caught up in the high level really fun stuff for IMAC. As a beginner put the foundation to the building in first. Work on the basics. Straight and level flight, straight and wind corrected verticals, same radii, ROUND radii (not egg shaped), Round loops, keeping the plane parallel to the flight line with rudder only inverted and right side up, BREATHE WHILE YOU FLY, have other watch and give you feedback, show up to contests on Friday and ask one of the higher level pilots to watch your flight, call for you, ect and give you feedback (this is probably the most helpfull situation away from home)

IMAC and Pattern both (see my signature) are a blast and gives us a reason to practice and pretty soon other pilots at your club will be saying "How did he do that" or "WOW that was pretty" or "Those planes handle the wind better than ours(total crap but they haven't learned how to use the left hand yet

Don's Hobbies also has a book about competing in aerobatics which is applicable to both IMAC and Pattern. Inexpensive and very insightful. Consider buying it and reading it.

Hope this helps

ed

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Pattern or IMAC, loops should be round, lines should be straight, and either props can send you to the hospital!:)

(in reply to zope_pope)
       Post #: 28

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/20/2006 12:19:28 AM   
Dean Bird



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From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zope_pope

Hey Dean,

Thanks so much for the advice.

I'll keep practicing, maybe decrease my aileron throws and keep trying to get it. Thanks!

Adam


Hi Adam,

Ed has some great information in his post. His best suggestion was "read the rules". The fourth topic in the "IMAC Tips" talks about learning the judging criteria and provides links to different references. Practice won't do much good until you understand the criteria for the manuevers and what the deductions are going to be. Check out "Topic #4", read the materials it sends you to, and you'll be set.

You mention your aileron throw. Almost every new pilot has their plane set up with WAY too much throw. We almost always cut their throws in half and add some more exponential. It's all about SMOOTH!!

Good luck with your "perfect practice" and your 2007 season!!

Dean

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RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/20/2006 12:34:09 AM   
Digger44



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From: Newnan, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

Heres another question from a beginner, Why is there no snaps in the Basic routine? I would think there would be at least one snap maybe on a horizontal line up high. Seems this is the only basic element missing in the sequences.


I really didn't think the question was that bad. Is there just no answer to the question?? Anybody?

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RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/20/2006 12:42:37 AM   
Dean Bird



Posts: 431
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From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

Heres another question from a beginner, Why is there no snaps in the Basic routine? I would think there would be at least one snap maybe on a horizontal line up high. Seems this is the only basic element missing in the sequences.


I really didn't think the question was that bad. Is there just no answer to the question?? Anybody?


I was hoping Bill Malvey or Tom Wheeler would reply. Anything anyone outside the IMAC Sequence Committee would tell you would just be a guess. I can give you my opinion.

The classes are purposely designed to add specific skills as you progress. Sportsman adds positive snaps and Unknowns. Intermediate adds negative snaps and a 90 degree roller. Advanced adds snaps on uplines and downlines and 270 rollers (only to the inside). Unlimited adds 360 degree rollers, including rolling to the outside of the circle.

The Basic class has their hands full with straight lines, round radiuses, round loops, roll elements, centering roll elements, correct stall turns, correct spins, etc, etc. They have so much to learn in that class. They don't need to be worried about snap rolls too. That can wait until Sportsman.

Just my opinion. Not sure it it helps.

Take care,

Dean

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www.TroyBuiltModels.com

(in reply to Digger44)
       Post #: 31

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/20/2006 12:30:24 PM   
Digger44



Posts: 530
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Newnan, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dean Bird

quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

Heres another question from a beginner, Why is there no snaps in the Basic routine? I would think there would be at least one snap maybe on a horizontal line up high. Seems this is the only basic element missing in the sequences.


I really didn't think the question was that bad. Is there just no answer to the question?? Anybody?


I was hoping Bill or Tom Wheeler would reply. Anything anyone outside the Sequence Committee would tell you would just be a guess. I can give you my opinion.

The classes are purposely designed to add specific skills as you progress. Sportsman adds positive snaps and Unknowns. Intermediate adds negative snaps and a 90 degree roller. Advanced adds snaps on and and 270 rollers (only to the inside). Unlimited adds 360 degree rollers, including rolling to the outside of the circle.

The Basic class has their hands full with straight lines, round , round loops, roll elements, centering roll elements, correct stall turns, correct spins, etc, etc. They have so much to learn in that class. They don't need to be worried about snap rolls too. That can wait until Sportsman.

Just my opinion. Not sure it it helps.

Take care,

Dean


Thanks Dean,
There is a lot to learn in the basic routine for sure, especially for a beginner like me. Maybe it's just me but spins and hammers seem more difficult to perform correctly than snaps. For that matter, straight verticals and symmetrical loops seem harder as well. For all I know my snaps are not right either but they do seem easier. I was thinking along the same lines as your explanation except for the spin and hammer. I guess without at least one of these it would be a pretty flat routine.

Thanks again ,
Bob





< Message edited by Digger44 -- 12/20/2006 12:31:10 PM >


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RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/20/2006 6:21:27 PM   
Tom Wheeler


 

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Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but Dean is correct in his assessment, we use a Matrix that define what base figures and roll elements are appropriate for each class. The idea is to have a logical progression of learning sequence flying, and you have to start with the very fundamental elements in the Basic class, that is line, roll, loop, spin and be able to string them all together into a sequence. The snap roll even though is done by most "sport" pilots, (mostly banging the sticks) is in fact a difficult figure to perform with precision, and that is why we introduce the most basic single positive snap from upright in Sportsman and then add to the difficulty in the upper classes.

Tom Wheeler
IMAC Sequence Committee

(in reply to Digger44)
       Post #: 33

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/21/2006 12:13:31 AM   
Digger44



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From: Newnan, GA, USA
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Thank you as well Tom. Maybe I need to take another look at my snaps (mostly banging the stix). They may not be as easy as I think if i do them correctly.

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       Post #: 34

RE: Beginner To IMAC - I have some questions - 12/21/2006 12:16:11 AM   
zope_pope



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From: Aurora, CO, USA
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Just watch the sequences in the TAS videos. you'll see what good snaps look like. I cant get mine even close yet.

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If you choose not to make a decision, you have still made a decision.

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       Post #: 35

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