RE: Fokker DVIII color concept  
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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 6:30:26 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



Posts: 473
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From: Louisa, VA, USA
Status: offline 		PS...Don't want to open a big hairy can of worms here (I know how we can all get about verification of the true color of an EV or DVIII top wing) but is it me or does that top wing look like it might have lozenge on it. I mean look at the fuse, then back at the wing. I swear I might be able to make out some lozenge shapes there on the leading edge.....but what do I know, I see pipes where there aren't any!!!

ZZ.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 6:36:56 PM   
Prop Nut



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Joined: 5/4/2004
From: Coral, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Looks like lozenge to me, why would it not have been possible? I take this view on "scale", I make the plane look as it would if I were the pilot. If I like it, and I fly it, I am happy.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 6:47:45 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



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From: Louisa, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Thats a good perspective Prop Nut. By the way, have you tried reducing the incidence of your wing. I have heard that on the DVIII, it is actually beneficial to have a certain amount of negative incidence and this prevents it from entering stall spins so easily. Just an idea. I mentioned the wing becuase the first theory (traditional) as you probably already know is that DVIII-Ev's had all olive wings. There have also lately been some discoveries that at least some of these AC had 4 color staining done to them with different colors for the top and underside..this to a certain extent has been borne out by some original requirement sheets of the colors being found, as well as some photographic evidence. But it does not seem to be universally applied to all DVIII-EV- aircraft, as there are many photos which clearly do-not indicate it being used. So its up for debate as to the universality of the usage and or application. Another point ot interest is that DVIII wings were wood skinned, so if this is an image of lozenge(and I'm not saying it really is cause who can tell), how was it applied, by paint or by cloth over the wood. Interesting topic of discussion though. The thing about history is, just when you think you know something for sure, you stumble over the exception. All good fun though.

ZZ.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 6:54:05 PM   
Prop Nut



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From: Coral, MI, USA
Status: offline 		aaahh, gotta love revisionist history That is actually why I study history, its is always new. (Sounds like a contridiction right? lol)

I actually have tried adjusting the wing incidence using blocks on either the front of rear cabanes. There seems to be a very small area where the plane will fly, so It might be just that it needs to really be fine tuned.

It was ironic, and Norm might chime in on this as he appears to be a full scale pilot also, that a replica that was built in Georgia (I think) flew with exactly the same tendencies according to one of the Kit plane articles that I read last winter.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 7:07:07 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



Posts: 473
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Louisa, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Prop Nut, just out of curiosity, how well did that G26 haul around the 18lb DVIII? I've got a Homelite 25cc in mine, and I think its relevant. My AUW will likely run around 16-17lbs.

Thanks. ZZ

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 7:35:55 PM   
Prop Nut



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Status: offline 		The G26 had plenty of power. I had also used a 33cc Homelite chainsaw conversion on the first one. My Briggs and Stratton 4 stroke 34cc gasoline engine has about the same power as a 25cc engine. I hope your luck will be better than mine has been.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 7:38:39 PM   
Prop Nut



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Status: offline 		I think my biggest problem with the DVIII is my perception tha the DVIII is a WWI plane and should fly like one. It has a much more modern wing, a double taper, which are a more high speed design, I just cant go out and do lazy slow manouvers like I can in my Pup, SE5, DVII, or Eindecker.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/19/2007 8:15:18 PM   
normgoyer


 

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Status: offline 		Hi, In reading your flight experience I came up with some thoughts. I did several articles a few years ago with Brian Coughlin in Manlius NY where he had built two replica D-VIIIS with rotary engines in them. If I can recall the incidence on the wing was critical as is the CG and elevator deflection. I would check out your plane to make sure that it balances about 25% of the chord. Set the wing at about 1 degree positive and the horizontal stab at zero. I believe that the thick airfoil of the D8 has its center of lift fairly close to the leading edge. So 25% would sure be a safe way to start. Your stall spin problem appear to be high speed stalls induced by too much elevator too fast. Any airplane will stall at any speed if the angle of attack is increased. I once got myself into a high speed stall with one of my SNJ-6s and damn near hit the ground before I could pull it out. Solution; have a soft touch on the elevator at all times and you can sneak into by reducing the throws to very small with dual rates double the lower rate. I have been flying my Fokkers for years, all sizes, my third scale electric should be ready soon. I love the airplane and the way it flies but it hs to be flown for what it is not what you want it to be. Flying a scale model like its full scale counterpart is very difficult and when mastered is a great crowd pleaser and a personal satisfaction. If you have any specific questions about flying, I will try to help. I am still working as Consulting Editor for Plane & Pilot. My 81st birthday is coming up in July and still very active in full scale and RC flying. Norm

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/20/2007 1:45:39 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



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Status: offline 		Excellent info Norm. Thanks for the insight. It seems you have quite a substantial resume.


ZZ.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/20/2007 3:30:25 PM   
normgoyer


 

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Status: offline 		Hi, i have been around for enough time to have accomplished many things. Wish I were rich instead of some damn smart. You may also want to check the thrust of the motor/engine. In a plane like this I would start with 2 degrees down and 2 degrees right. Engine thrust can be determined from the actions of the plane when throttle position is changed. I have done a lot of flying with a Fokker DR-1 as well and enjoyed this aircraft also. Once I hit a rock on take off knocking off the tail wheel taking the rudder with it. I was about 10 feet in the air before I realized that the rudder was hanging on the control wire. I thought the plane was history but it kept right on flying and I made a circuit and landed okay. In thinking about it I realized that the designer had a reason for the very small almost non-existant vertical stab and a med size rudder, it didn't need it due to the huge flat struct on the wings acting as the vert stab. Anyway Anthony Fokker and his designers knew what they were doing. Norm

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/21/2007 6:39:18 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		I have a 1/6 scale DVIII and if not flown fast it will snap roll. I think even though it looks like it is ballanced it is tail heavy. I think brcause everything is close to the CG, it masks the ballance. The heavy wheels contribute to the problem because although they are forward of the CG, their moment from the roll center is so far away that the wheel's leverage use up the lift when the plane is banked even just a little bit.

On the multicolor wings, are the planes that are suspect EV or DVIII? I know with the wing problems they had to replace them, so does there seem to be a range of Serial Numbers that have the pattern? Or maybe some of the replacement wings had an experimental camo?

Tom

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/21/2007 1:30:55 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



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Status: offline 		Thats a good point about the balance TFF. There could be something to what your saying with the DVIII having such a short nose moment. Inregards to the wing coloration, there is a lengthy yet intriguing discussion about it over at the aerodrome forum. If you search for it it outlines the details, but your mentioning of the replacement wings does add yet another facet I don't believe I have heard mentioned. One of the main advocates of the 4 color theory on that site sems to imply though, that the application of the multicolor staining was universal, ie used on all DVIII aircraft (I assume EVs as well but am not sure....can go back and re-read). Anyway, I dont see the photo evidence bearing this out. Im no expert, but I have seen photos that indicate the all olive as well as the multi colored. So who's to say what actually took place due to shortages at wars end. Im sure many things were done in a (less than standard) fashion. As an aside, I have also heard it universally stated that no Fokker DVIII ever had lozenge on the wing. I don't completely disagree....but man does the photo you see here suggest it. It well could be a trick of light again, as often happens in these old grainy washed out pics....but it makes you wonder. Just when you think you know it all........

ZZ.

< Message edited by ZoomZoom-RCU -- 3/21/2007 1:31:18 PM >

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/21/2007 4:02:01 PM   
jtisch


 

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Status: offline 		I'll go ahead and put my two cents in on the wing topic. First of all, it seems that the EVs with the new wings(and renamed DVIII) and newly manufactured DVIIIs apparently never made it to front line units and the EV was the only one that flew in combat. There are several decent photos that show multicolored wings, including the one that shows newly delivered EV wings stacked on the ground so you get a good angle of the wing planform. One other thing to consider is the quality of photos we are looking at. Many of them are 3rd, 4th, 5th generation copies and much of the detail gets lost. If you look at the photo in post six, the wing appears to be one solid color. However, in the same photo the lozenge on the fuselage is almost completely washed out as well,so the wing could be multi-colored but it doesn't show up in the image. A few months ago I received a CD of high-res digital scans of first generation photos (no EV/DVIIIs though ) and the difference is amazing. After saying all this I am not going to tell you that a solid olive wing is "wrong". Maybe some were. Heck, my EV has a solid olive wing and I don't plan on changing it any time soon.

Just some food for thought.

J

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/21/2007 4:12:53 PM   
ZoomZoom-RCU



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Status: offline 		Very good point jtisch.

ZZ.

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RE: Fokker DVIII color concept - 3/21/2007 4:31:48 PM   
normgoyer


 

Posts: 732
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Status: offline 		Here's another suggestion for scale folks. I always test fly my planes and tweak them before I paint them. I use ceconite and dope so when the clear dope is on the cloth I head for the flying field. This way your final paint isn't all screwed up with needed changes. And if it flies lousy, have a cook out. Actually the hanging landing gear should act like a pendulum making the plane ever steadier. Don't forget to match the incidence of the landing gear wing with the flying wing. This design is an excellent flyer. I have one that is over 20 years old and is still going. Norm

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