Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (Full Version)

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hilleyja -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/20/2003 1:13:13 AM)

Well I dillegently watched this thread for the last several months because I had bought (5) Hitec digitals to put in my 1/4-scale Cap 232 for a winter project.

By the time it died down it appeared that the problem with the Hitec Digitals was limited to older versions and solved by resetting them to factory starts with a v1.03 programmer.

I was running a Futaba RX and setting up my tail surface controls (2) HS-5625s for elevator (AILEVATOR function) and (1) HS-5645 for the rudder. I had no problems, everything went together well and then came the time to setup the throttle. All of my servos are lableled Jan 02, v1.02.

Since I had to salvage an HS-422 from another airplane I also salvaged the Hitec Supreme 3200 8-channel RX. I setup and installed the throttle servo and hooked up all to the Hitec RX. Less than 5 seconds after energizing the RX the channel 2 elevator servo deflected hard over to the left. No problem, I have the Hitec programmer and it was upgraded to v1.03 recently.

I executed the programmer's "reset-program", the servo went through the left-then-right deflection process and then responded with "success". Now that servo will not deflect more than a couple of degrees and running through the reset process again didn't solve anything.

Since I recently purchased another set of Hitec digitals for my Creek Hobbies Sukhoi, I swapped out the bad one for an HS-5625, Mar 02, v1.03. I used the programmer to reset that one and then installed it. Everything is working fine now BUT!!!!

If that servo had failed in flight there is no doubt in mine mind I would have lost that airplane -- now I'm afraid to trust the rest of the servos with an $1800.00 investment.

I'm looking for a warm fuzzy from Hitec -- telling me that I had one of the rare failures is not going to hack it. I most certainly will be testing the other servos but given the failure scenario of the above that won't give me the warm fuzzy I need.




MikeMayberry -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/21/2003 10:34:11 PM)

I would like to get a little more information and would prefer to talk to you on the phone, so please call me @ (858)748-6948 x 302 and I would be happy to talk to you about this.

In my experience, if a servo is going to fail it will do so within the first few minutes. That is why it is always a good practice to let the servos warm up and prove themselves to be worthy for an airplane before flying them for the first time. Many people will fly a set of servos in a "beater" before they put them in a big bird.

Also be aware that with such a substantial investment you should consider the coreless motor servos which if you were to switch to a JR or Futaba you would be using. Neither of those two companies offers anything like 5625MG so making a comparison to them would not be fair. The coreless motors that are used in the high end servos like the 5945MG which is what I would recommend in the larger, more expensive birds.

The 6 series servos are designed for sport use; however, with the digital curcuit they are very impressive but they are still a sport level servo. If you want the best then you need to go with 5945MG that uses a coreless motor like the JR and Futaba high end servos.

Mike.




AV8TOR -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/21/2003 11:52:52 PM)

Boy I only have one HS-5645 and I have been following these all to frequent post of digital failures. Sure makes flying more UN-nerving.




hilleyja -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/22/2003 8:17:52 PM)

After a lengthy discussion on the phone with Mike Mayberry I was still not convinced 100% that these servos failed infrequently but have decided to essentially "break them in" on the bench. I have a total of 10 of these Hitec "sports plane" servos and currently 5 of them are installed in my Hanger 9 1/4-scale Cap 232. I hooked up each servo to my HFP-10 digital servo programmer/tester and ran it for over 15 minutes in auto test mode. In 15 minutes I probably got several hours worth of servo activity. None of them failed -- I've got my warm fuzzy for now. I will duplicate this test for the other servos before I install them in an airplane.

Now, "was still not convinced 100%"!!!! This post of mine was perpetuated by my skepticism of these servos from reading all of the posts over the past year and then having one of the first ones I've use fail on me. Hitec still insists these servos do not fail any more frequently than any other, but based on my statement above I still can't bring myself to be 100% convinced but will fly my airplane in its current configuration.

BTW, I once again used my Hitec programmer to reset the failed servo. This time the servo work perfectly afterward. My previous several attempts were identical to this one????




AV8TOR -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/22/2003 10:00:16 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hilleja
"break them in" on the bench. [/QUOTE]Gees are we talking motors or servos here :) Would you so kind as to explain this procedure.
Nothing that came with my servo mentioned anything like this.




Whymee -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 1:42:51 AM)

Maaannnnnnnn.......

I know how ya feel hilleja, how would you behave if you had 14 Hitec Digitals ready to go up? (in one plane) :stupid:

Nervous is not quite the adjective I would use. ( or is it verb?) :confused:

Good luck to us all....




WreckRman2 -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 1:58:53 AM)

I just know someone is waiting for me to chime in so here goes... :)

First off I am glad to hear you found the problem before you sent the aircraft in the air so you got one up on me. I am also glad to hear Mike is still trying to find a resolve to this problem as well. Unfortuanetly when my loss happened we were never able to pin point the problem so my confidence for Hitec went right out the door. Like many others I never thought to throughly test my servos before flying with them because this is not known as something we all should do like breaking in an engine on the bench. If I had did this maybe my outcome would be different and so might my views on Hitec servos. Yes they all fail, it just sucks my failure was the first time I choose to use Hitec.

I too was using a Futaba radio, T6XAS, with a Hitec Supreme rx and 5625 servos. I just wonder if the Futaba radio has anything to do with it because a couple others have had similar problems also using a Futaba radio...




hilleyja -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 3:06:31 AM)

[QUOTE]I too was using a Futaba radio, T6XAS, with a Hitec Supreme rx and 5625 servos. I just wonder if the Futaba radio has anything to do with it because a couple others have had similar problems also using a Futaba radio... [/QUOTE]

Actually, when the servo went south on me it was when I had it connected to the Hitec RX. I ran that same servo for a little while connected to a Futaba R28DF RX with a Hitec Xtal and it ran fine. Subsequent to the failure and a few days later I re-ran the failed servo through the Hitec programmer's "Program-reset". The servo was fine after that -- will still send it to Hitec for replacement.

Your right about the "break in" -- who would have thought it was necessary. Unlike an engine it really is not necessary but the ability to do so with the Hitec programmer does give you the opportunity to find a bad servo at the time it more than luckly would be bad. Another good side to the Hitec programmer is you can test ANY servo, regardle of manufacture and/or whether it is a digital or analog servo. I will be doing this "break in" with every new servo I purchase.




Whymee -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 4:57:27 AM)

The point WreckRman2 is trying to make ( I think) is he was using Hitec digitals with a Hitec RX & a FUTABA TX. (correct?)

EGAD.... I have a 8US & a 9C...... The saga continues... *shiver*

Wreckman2, I remember your post of your unfortunate crash & the warnings you gave to the RC community. If memory serves me correct, yours was one of the first I had seen with a failure of these digitals.

I personally thank you for the "heads up" !




WreckRman2 -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 5:38:31 AM)

Ya, I was one of the more known issues because of what I lost and my emotions. I made it known to everyone mostly because I had just sold all my smaller airplanes to afford this 27% one only to lose it on the 5th flight. So after this crash I had nothing too fly so why not stir the pot with my free time instead of flying. I really hope Mike does find what is causing this because it sucks to see anyone lose a plane. Mike is a great guy to deal with, I'd just hate to be in his shoes... Until there is a known cure I can't afford to try Hitec again. I'll spend the extra money and go with the equipment that has treated me so well up until this point.

I will also say that I had servos marked AUG2001 and they worked flawless on the first 4 flights. Between the 4th flight and the next one I had heard of the programming issue so I hooked them up to the programmer and reset them. On the next flight the one failed. So is it something in the programming... that's the only thing I changed from the 4th great flight to the 5th and last flight. Who knows but best of luck to Mike to find a resolve.




hilleyja -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 9:04:34 AM)

[QUOTE]...I will also say that I had servos marked AUG2001 and they worked flawless on the first 4 flights. Between the 4th flight and the next one I had heard of the programming issue so I hooked them up to the programmer and reset them. On the next flight the one failed. So is it something in the programming... that's the only thing I changed from the 4th great flight to the 5th and last flight. Who knows but best of luck to Mike to find a resolve. [/QUOTE]

There is something curiously coincidental about this statement. Although my servo did not fail after I reset the program I did reset it after it failed. Mike from Hitec insists the problem with these servos were/are not related to the digital circuitry and/or their firmware programming -- I think your scenario and the following belies that:

As I stated before;

1) I initially used a Futaba R28DF 8-channel RX with a Hitec chnl 35 Xtal for my initial setup (this configuration was only intended to be used to set up the pushrods and pull-pull controls for the tail surfaces). This setup worked fine and I detected no problems with the (2) HS-5625s and (1) HS-5645. Although my use of this setup was not real extensive, I did put those servos through many maximum left and right deflections -- again no problems.

2) When it came time to setup the throttle channel I also replaced the Futaba RX with a Hitec Supreme 3200 8-channel RX.

3) My configuration upon startup of the RX was now (2) HS-5625s, (1) HS-5645, and (1) HS-422. Each servo was installed in a separate RX channel. The (2) HS-5625s were setup in an "AILEVATOR" mode with channels 2 & 8 with no y-connector and no extensions -- servos were direct connected to RX.

4) BTW, my TX for both of these setups was the Futaba 9C.

5) Within 5 seconds of energizing the RX the channel 2 HS-5625 immediately deflected to maximum left, a full 45 degrees from neutral.

6) I disconnected the failed servo from the RX and hooked it up to the Hitec programmer and ran the "progra reset" function. I was awarded with the "success" response. [COLOR=red]During the "program reset" activities the servo was commanded to deflect full left first and then full right. This occurred with no indication of problems[/COLOR].

7) I then activated the "auto self test" and observed that the servo only deflect a couple of degrees around neutral. I could not get the servo to move normally. I redid the "program reset" and it still would not deflect normally.

8) I replaced the Jan 02, version 1.02 servo with an HS-5625 lableled as Mar 02, version 1.03. Setup was normal and no problems with the servo.

9.) Three days later in preparation to box up the failed servo to return to Hitec and again hooked it up to the Hitec programmer and ran the "program reset" function. I subsequently ran the "auto self test" and this time the servo reacted normally.

Conclusion: The servo was in a failed state for a period of time and then was able to be reset. What component degrades and stays degraded for a couple of hours, only to return to normal a few days later? BTW, for those thinking heat is involved here. I reset that servo after a couple of hours since its failure and it still stayed failed -- a couple of hours is more than sufficient time for thermal degredation on an IC to reverse itself.

I know these facts only further confuse the issue, but maybe there is someone out there that can make some sense of it. I am returning the servo to Hitec for replacement -- it failed once and I'm certainly not going to install it in an airplane again.




akflyer -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 10:38:08 AM)

Well after telling everyone how great these servos have been for me, I guess I get to eat a little crow. I had an elevator servo go hard over on me while doing a pre-flight check. It was fine in the garage but once out in the cold ~ 2 deg. it would lock up. All other servos were fine. When warmed back up it started working again, however, the programing went back to factory NOT what I had set it at.

Last week a buddy had his left aileron lock out on him in the full down position on a UCANDO. He changed that one and today the right one did the same thing but it SLOWLY crept UP till it locked in the up position. He also has an elevator servo that will revert to factory programming when cold ???????? I am thinking that when cold the board shrinks and soldered joints are touching or something of this nature, because the servos work fine when warm, but ARE BACK TO FACTORY PROGRAMMING.

I hope to get this figured out because I flew them for the last two years without any problems.




WreckRman2 -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/24/2003 11:01:48 AM)

I'll also add that all 4 of the 5625's I had showed "success" after being reset with the programmer.

After my crash I brought the remains home and removed all servos, extensions, etc and laid out the entire scheme on my work bench using the same extensions, battery, etc. Exactly how it was in the plane. Everything seemed normal but while I was on the phone trying to explain what happened to a buddy I heard a servo move. I looked at the servos on the bench and sure enough one was moving and holding position off center. It wasn't until then that I knew what caused the crash. I was able to watch the servo act up several times but after I packaged them all up and sent them to Mike he was unable to get the servo to do it for him.

Was it cold weather? When mine failed it was Sept 14 at our Internet Fly-In where the temps that day was mid 80's so cold isn't the cause if you ask me.

Sure sucks when you drive 200 miles for a two day event, one that you helped organize, and you lose your airplane on the first flight of the day...




Rudeboy -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (1/30/2003 2:07:48 AM)

I know all (most) of the bid bird aerobatic guys are using digital coreless servos these days, but after reading all this I start to wonder if all this digital technology is not suffering from "childhood diseases" and is not quite where it should be yet.

I have only had one analog servo "fail" on me. This was about the cheapest JR you could find about 15 years ago: the 505. The glue which kept the motor from moving came loose, and with the moving of the motor, the wiring on the motor came loose. I had several of these servos and fixed them all with a little ZAP. Some of them are actually still serving as throttle servos on my cheaper planes...

I will be following these threads with great interest.




Big Edge -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/2/2003 1:45:18 AM)

I Just replaced a 5625 for this same reason, the servo work fine then suddenly during a taxi the right aileron deflected straight down and locked there, thank God I was still on the groung.
The NEW 5625 servo I recieved from Tower Hobbies DID THE SAME THING , it worked for a short time on the ground and failed, the servo going to full deflection and jittering.
I do not have the Servo Programmer but it sounds like that may not be of any help.
I am also using the Futaba T6XAS Tx and the Hitec Supreme Rx.




akflyer -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/2/2003 9:37:23 AM)

I called HITEC and asked about my servo failure and they acted surprised to hear there was a problem, even though I knew three others from our club had called them in the last two days. After talking to them I decided that I knew more about their product than the jack #$s on the phone. I did a freezer test and only found the one servo to be failing. I changed it out and have eight flights in the last two days in 5 - 30 deg. temps with no problems. I did however, tell the hitec guys that if they locked up on me and I lost the plane, I would be on the next flight south and get my money out of their a$$.




Big Edge -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/4/2003 3:42:58 AM)

I called Hitec today asking if I could return all of my 5625 for a refund or an exchange for some analog servos. They do not provide an exchange service. Why would I want to return all they ask, "Because out of 6 servos, 3 have failed! 2 of them right out of the box!" I tried to talk to someone at a higher level in customer service but I was told there was no one.
Yes I could send them in for repair but come on guys I'm dealing with 50% failure rate here.
Dont know if I can trust the 5625 enough to put them back in my Edge, even after service repair.




dubflyer -> HITEC 5625 servo (2/4/2003 7:45:55 PM)

Hi Mike,

I have used analog servos from Hitec for the past year and have around 40 of them, with only three going south and one receiver Hitec Supreme also.

I was planing on using 15 x 5625s and 5645s in my new 102 size planes. After the reports on the 5625 failures reported here in this forum I have reservations about using the servos.

What solace can you offer to the many users of Hitec products that the cause of the failures is being fixed.

I know that faulty switches and connectors etc ..play a role in some cases but many / most fliers are aware of the difference in loss of Electrical power and the erratic movement of a servo.

In fact Jim Hilley and David Smith both have seen problems with the servos while being tested on a bench.

I would like you to state exactly what your company is doing to correct the the problem with these servos and the image that these servos are not worth the effort to put into a plane.

Please convince me and many others reading this forum that Hitec will fix this problem soon as we need this product ( HS 5625 / HS 5645 )at this price range to work reliably.

Many of us do not have the big bucks to spend on
very expensive servos and my guess is that Hitec know this as the HS 5625 / HS 5645 servos are very popular in the 1/4 scale market where many of us enjoy the sport of fun flying.

Mike... we like the products... we just want honest answers when things go wrong and a commitment from Hitec that they are going to make the effort to fix the problem.

Dubflier




AV8TOR -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/4/2003 7:56:50 PM)

[QUOTE]Please convince me and many others reading this forum that Hitec will fix this problem soon as we need this product ( HS 5625 / HS 5645 )at this price range to work reliably. [/QUOTE]
Boy I'll second that.
Mike seems to be AWOL right now, as he has not responded to my question about the modification date of my 5945. I too do not have a lot of money to throw around and I bought these per Mike’s recommendations and trust that I acquired through this forum. That trust has started to fade and a cloud of concern has plagued me now. I am a scratch builder and have a lot of time along with money invested to see it go down by a "new" servo that has faults.
Please address this Mike/HiTec




hilleyja -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/4/2003 9:15:33 PM)

dubflyer & AV8TOR,

Hitec has yet to aknowledge that there is a problem with these servos. They are still adamant that these servos do not fail at any higher rate than other Hitec or competitor servos.

I spent over a 1/2 hour talking to Mike on the phone and believe me there is no moving him from that position. He even tried to tell me that I was expecting too much from a "sport" servo; made it pretty clear that he felt the HS-5625 and HS-5645 was not appropriate for my 1/4-scale Cap 232 -- that flabergasted me since I had already considered that I was using a premium servo versus the HS-605 that most others use for this airplane.

I'm still using these servos and, for now, will continue to use them. You can't beat them for price and performance. BUT, I've gotten into a "break in" mode on servos as a result of my experience. After I connect the servo to the control surface and after I make the initial Subtrim and Extent corrections I disconnect the servo from the RX and connect it to my Hitec programmer. I run the auto test on the programmer for a solid 15 minutes. If my control surface is dual, I will connect the servos to a y-connector before the programmer and run them both for at least 15 minutes. This essentially burns in the servo motor with a load and is probably equivalent to a couple dozen or more flights. This gives me the warm fuzzy I need to use them in the air. I will also repeat this process at least every 6 months. You can do this with any servo, regardless of analog vs digital or any manufacturer.




MikeMayberry -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/5/2003 12:27:36 AM)

I know that many of you are looking for Hitec to come out and say "Yes, there was a problem and it has been fixed." Sorry, that is not warranted here. We have reported what has been posted here to our engineers and they have done extensive testing with no results that show there is a design flaw or software problem. In fact, the return rate of the 56XX servos is no different than that of the 605/615 servos, the platform for the 56XX series servos, that have been sold for years. These servos continue to be among the most popular servos that Hitec sells.

Hitec is aware that the 56XX's are now being used in even bigger, more expensive airplanes than the 605/615's, so when a failure does occur the loss is much greater than that of airplanes in the past. And now... with forums such as this, these failures are brought out into the open to discuss. I also know that the other servo manufactures have similar failure rates but it seems people are less likely to talk about them as they are with Hitec. This is, I feel, a side affect due to our lower cost.

We strongly feel that the 605/615/625/645/5625/5645's are "Sport" level servos. That is not to say that they CANNOT be used in larger aircraft but that there is a better choice with the 59XX series "Premium" servos that were specifically designed for the abuse that these larger planes can dish out. I look at it as using the right tool for the job. I get questions every day asking can I use “X” servo in “Y” application and in some cases I have to say “Yes, it will work but there is a better choice; I would recommend _____” Fill in the blank.

In the 25% and larger airplanes, the 5945's are quickly proving that they are up to the task and when compared to their competition they really shine. The gears don’t wear out after 40-50 flights, they don’t oscillate around center and need to be sent in to have the gain turned down (whatever that means) and you don’t need to use any additional devises if you are ganging servos on one control surface as with the competition. I strongly recommend them in the larger planes as they are not only the right tool for the job; they are best, most versatile high performance servos on the market today!

In many of these cases the set up can be the problem, so... let's look at some of the things that we have discovered can potentially cause problems:

Digital servos require more power and if the conduit that supplies that power is limited, then the servos will not function properly. This can be due to the use of a regulator or long extensions of a Y-harness. Hitec makes heavy duty 22 gauge extensions and Y-harness that have proven to provide the power needed for the digital servos; standard 24 gauge wire is not enough and should not be used. If you are running multiple servos per control surface then you should be using more than one battery and potentially more than one receiver so the servos can get the power they need.

I would like to know how the servos were wired in the cases where they failed; was there a y-harness, extension (length?) and or regulator being used? What size? There was a report that one servo failed on a control surface, then another was installed and it failed. This sounds like a problem with the installation or wiring. The chance of two servos failing back to back like that is rare. Be aware that there are many things to consider here and only one of which is the servo.

I was not aware of the issue with the cold weather that was discussed so I will pass that information on and see what we can come up with.

Mike.




WreckRman2 -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/5/2003 12:52:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MikeMayberry
The gears don’t wear out after 40-50 flights.... and you don’t need to use any additional devises if you are ganging servos on one control surface as with the competition. [/QUOTE]

Hitec throws a punch at JR... JR ducks and throws one back. LOL

Please note that if the gears do wear out JR replaces them free of charge. Hitec do that?




mglavin -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/5/2003 1:16:03 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WreckRman2


Hitec throws a punch at JR... JR ducks and throws one back. LOL

Please note that if the gears do wear out JR replaces them free of charge. Hitec do that?
[/QUOTE]

OK, my turn....

You don't need a free replacement warranty for Hitecs gear train. They don't break or wear out as directly compared head to head with HS-5945 and a JR's 8411. Imagine that... The little guy with inferior materials and components whose technologically back-wards front offers the unknowing users a low budget product that is again deemed superior.... :)

JR now offers them for FREE, I say this with great animosity as I have spent hundreds of dollars replacing JR's 8411's gear sets at $20.00 plus dollars each and every time... Seems Hitec is slicing off ever larger pieces of the fat cats presumed superior pie and humbling the industry or the dissatisfaction from users was noted once to often... :o

Hitecs gear train has held up on all of my models. AND Hitec warrants their gear train unconditionally, if you break them, wear them out or drive over them with bulldozer you get new gear-sets installed at NO CHARGE..... It's time all the FAT cats out there offer a similar warranty and service IMO... :D




Big Edge -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/5/2003 3:02:07 AM)

No "Y" harness, 1 - 12" MPI heavy servo extension, HS-5625MG servo controlling right aileron went full deflection and died in less than 10 minutes, and this was the replacement servo.

Are we the unlucky few that have recieved the only bad 5625's on the planet? It sure feels that way.




MikeMayberry -> Another HS-5625 Failure -- This one from Jan 02 Lot (2/5/2003 3:43:12 AM)

Please post as much info as you can.... battery, regulator, receiver, outside temp, how many total servos, how old the servos were, etc....

Thanks!

Mike.




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