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Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 10/31/2006 12:59:49 AM   
Rudeboy



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From: Bejing, BELGIUM
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Hi guys,

A while ago I bought a Rossi .15 tuned pipe For my MVVS .15 on "that big auction site"... I think it was actually Morris Hobbies selling off old stock. Well, at least, he sold it to me as a Rossi .15 pipe.

Now, when I run my engine it appears to be "locked" at about 23000 rpm. I can lean it out until it quits, ot I can richen it until it drops back off the pipe, and the rpm hardly changes as long as it on the pipe. I've got like one full turn on the needle without rpm change.

The pipe measures about 8 inches from plug to belly, which seems very short to me for only 23000 rpm.

Does anyone know at what rpm these pipes are actually "tuned"?

Is it possible that I'm only turning up to some kind of "first stage", and not even close to tuned rpm?

Here's a link to a video of a short engine run so you can hear the "pipe jump": http://users.pandora.be/my_rc_world/IMAG0010.ASF

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< Message edited by Rudeboy -- 10/31/2006 1:37:59 AM >


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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 10/31/2006 4:32:41 PM   
djlyon



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From: Castaic, CA, USA
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I didn't run the numbers but that length sounds about right to me for 23000. Use 23000 rpm and the speed of sound 743 mph to calculate the pulse to pulse distance. It should be a little over 30 inches. Distance from plug to pipe high point will be about 1/4 of that for peak tune. Your on the pipe off the pipe needle behavior is normal for a wide open venturi.

Denis

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 10/31/2006 6:00:55 PM   
DHG


 

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Rudeboy,

I'm not familiar with the MVVS .15, so it's possible you're getting as much out of it as it has to give. It certainly sounds better than the average sport engine. But I suspect that with a smaller prop, bigger venturi opening, a few thousandths' worth of sleeve shims, or some combination of all three, you'd hear a massive jump to somewhere around 28,000.

See if you can find a continuous-strand fiberglass or CF propeller of about 6" diameter and 5" pitch. That's what we used on the Nelson .15s in Quarter Midget Pylon. They were unpiped, with about a 3/16" dia. venturi opening and 15% nitro. The "sweet spot" for ground rpm was about 27,300 to 27,800. Even with an engine that's not as finely crafted as the Nelson, you should be able to get to the same range with the help of a pipe.

But whatever you do, please please PLEASE put on some polycarbonate shades. Earplugs are optional; you can still function in society if you're half-deaf. Eyes are another thing entirely. Plus, if a chunk of propeller (or something that falls out of that tree into the prop arc) goes into your eye socket at 400 mph, it won't stop at the eye. Trust me on this one. A pair of Performance Bike Shop $29 shades have extended my life span by two years, nine months, and 16 days so far ... as well as allowing me to inflict my opinions on my racing buddies far longer than they otherwise would have had to endure it. Such a deal!

Duane Gall
RCPRO

(in reply to Rudeboy)
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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 10/31/2006 9:32:57 PM   
dwbebens


 

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From: Dickson, TN, USA
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Over the years, I’ve designed a number of tuned pipes and applied them to engines from .15 glow engines all the way up to 340 cc two cylinder two stroke engines. I’ve also just bought tuned pipes and put them on various engines. In most cases, I’ve gotten around 30% power increases.

According to my copy of the “Two-stroke TUNER’S HANDBOOK”, the formula is:

Tuned Length = (E x V)/RPM where

Tuned Length = the distance (in inches) from the exhaust port window, at the piston face, measured along the exhaust system’s centerline to the mean point of reflection. This “mean point of reflection” is ½ way down the converging cone (also called the baffle cone). The baffle cone starts where the diameter just starts to decrease and ends at an imaginary point as if the cone ended at a sharp tip. Draw a 2D side view of the cone going to this imaginary sharp tip, and then find the ½ way point.

E = Exhaust open timing (in degrees). Measure it.

V = speed of sound (in feet\second) in the exhaust gasses (approximately = 1700 ft / second)

RPM = Revolutions/Minute

x is just the mathematical operator “times”

This formula seems surprisingly simple, and can be derived from theory fairly easily.

There are a couple other important features of full wave tuned pipes that have an effect on performance. The diverging cone (also called the diffuser cone) controls how broad the power band is before the peak power point. The sharper, more abruptly the cone tapers, the narrower the power band will be before peak power. The baffle cone on the other hand controls how broad the power band is after the peak power point. Again, the more sharply the cone tapers, the narrower the power band will be after the peak power point. The basic trade-off concerning these tapers is that you get narrow power band along with higher peak power with sharply tapered cones, and conversely, you get a broader power band along with lower peak power with shallowly tapered cones. By “before” the peak power point, I mean at lower RPMs. By “after” the peak power point, I mean at higher RPMs. There are a number of other factor which effect various aspects of the performance, but these are the main ones.

The final effect of all this is that the pipe’s power band seems to “pull” the RPM way up in a “jump” like manner, and thereafter keeps it locked in.

My procedure for determining a proper tuned pipe length is as follows:

1. In the first place, get in the ballpark with the correct prop size, using your experience or by copying what’s typically being used on the engine already. As DHG said, make sure that the prop can take the RPM and power that you will be applying by using a tuned pipe. Also, take great care to keep yourself clear and safe, as you normally would, right. Use a test stand. I too have had an unfortunate experience with a high velocity piece of prop! Some kind of safety glasses are a MUST!

2. Run the engine to peak “static RPM” with no muffler using this prop and record peak RPM.

3. Estimate the “flying RPM”; this depends on how clean and fast the plane is (for a clean fast plane this could be easily 20% or more greater than static RPM)

4. Add maybe 2,000 to 3,000 RPM to this estimated “flying RPM”. This added amount also depends how clean and fast the plane is. You now have the "in-air-on-pipe RPM".

5. Calculate the Tuned Length from the formula using the "in-air-on-pipe" RPM calculated from #4 above.

6. Trim or extend the header pipes so you get this Tuned Length.

7. Now comes the part where you have to be careful concerning needling. You have to be very careful how you needle a tuned pipe engine. The engine needs to be needled richer than you think. It will NOT be fully on the pipe when running on the ground. It should sound dirty-rich on the ground. DO NOT lean it to peak RPM. If you do lean it to peak on the ground, any subsequent richening may be false. You would need to throttle back down and then up again before re-setting the needle. At this “dirty-rich” setting, it will be running partially on the pipe - - it will be on the part of the power band before the peak. In other words, the diffuser cone will be dominant. After it is launched, as the speed increases, the RPM will come up as it unloads. At some point during this speed-up process, the RPM will get into the full effect range of the pipe and the RPM will abruptly come way up. It now should be running 2,000 to 3,000 RPM or more higher than it would have if it hadn’t had the pipe in the first place.

You DON’T want to adjust the Tuned Length for maximum RPM on the ground. It will just lock-in the RPM like a governor at a too low level, and stay that way in the air.

When it gets fully on the pipe in the air, it will proceed to a much more lean condition, hence the necessity of needling it rich on the ground.

Most of this procedure is geared toward a “speed” type plane installation. A full wave tuned pipe would NOT be good for a 3D type airplane because the RPM would “lock-in” and be difficult to control in a linear manner.

Example:

Tuned Length = (E x V)/RPM

I believe that E = 145 degrees for the Rossi 15, anyway, let’s say that it is

V = 1700

Let's say that static RPM = 22,000 and we estimate it would unload in the air to 25,000 RPM

Therefore "in-air-on-pipe" RPM = 25,000 + 2,000 = 27,000

And then; Tuned Length = (145 x 1700)/27000 = 9.13 inches.


Get ready for a really surprising jump in performance.

Doug Bebensee














< Message edited by dwbebens -- 11/1/2006 12:56:18 AM >

(in reply to Rudeboy)
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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/1/2006 12:54:48 AM   
Rudeboy



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From: Bejing, BELGIUM
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Thanks Doug, that was most informative.

I'm already getting more out of it than it has to give in stock trim .... but I want more still...

A few more facts:
Exhaust timing already increased from 160° to 178° (I was aiming for 175 )
Tranfers and boost are still stock. They will go up to 125° probably, just to see what that gives
Induction: still stock timing (180° starting 50° ABDC).
Prop: 6.5x5 APC pylon, cut down to 6.25" diameter
Venturi ID 6mm (that's almost 1/4"
Fuel: FAI (80/20 meth/castor)
Compression: I'm running WITHOUT head shims at the moment (head is at 0.35mm or 0.014" now). The engine still tolerates nitro, so there's more to be had there I think.
I am now in the process of cleaning up and matching the transfer channels to the ports (with high temp epoxy).

I just think it's strange it pipes up so early... I really thought these .15 CL speed engines were revving much higher And I think that pipe was originally intended for a CL speed engine. It may be old technology, but still...

Duane, I think I read on RCU about someone getting saved by a pair of sunglasses... Was that you? If I remember correctly, that prop blade still got you despite the fact that you were standing behind the prop?
I'm one of those "it doesn't happen to me" guys I guess. I know I should be paying more attention to safety with these high revving things...
Guilty as charged.

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/1/2006 1:03:10 AM   
dwbebens


 

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If it is going fully onto the pipe on the ground, then the Tuned Length is too large as you have it installed. You want it to go fully onto the pipe near it's upper speed range in the air. Shorten the pipe. It should act like it is trying to go onto the pipe on the ground but can't quite make it. Keep it rich.

Doug Bebensee

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/1/2006 12:37:35 PM   
Ed Smith


 

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quote:

Prop: 6.5x5 APC pylon, cut down to 6.25" diameter


A word of caution here. I do not know what APC Pylon prop is to be used, but at the rpm figures being mentioned I would strongly recommend against ANY commercially available molded prop being used.

Ed S

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/1/2006 9:46:58 PM   
DHG


 

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Yep, that was me, I was behind it but only slightly. Prop pieces usually go straight out or forward; foreign objects can go anywhere. My sunglasses were made of 0.060" polycarbonate, which kept the chunk from penetrating my head but it (and the distorted poly lens) used the front of my eyeball as a trampoline. The eye doctor said it resembled a very bad racquetball injury.

When I think about all the times I & my buddies test-ran piped Rossi .15s with Master Airscrew 7 x 4s at 24,000 rpm and no eye protection, it gives me chills. Happy Halloween!

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/21/2006 2:03:57 PM   
joenella


 

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From: Odense, DENMARK
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I don't know the MVVS .15 engine, BUT I had run a complete Rossi setup engine and pipe in CL speed competition.

Normally we tuned the engine to run 28.500 -29.000 on ground and i peaked about 31-32000 rpm in the air, my length of the pipe where around 183-193 mm.

Prop used where home made wooden prop singel blade 5,5"x6-7" depending on weather conditions

Good luck

brgds
Joen

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/21/2006 5:48:10 PM   
ptxman


 

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From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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quote:

Exhaust timing already increased from 160° to 178° (I was aiming for 175 ) Tranfers and boost are still stock. They will go up to 125° probably, just to see what that gives Induction: still stock timing (180° starting 50° ABDC). Prop: 6.5x5 APC pylon, cut down to 6.25" diameter Venturi ID 6mm (that's almost 1/4" Fuel: FAI (80/20 meth/castor) Compression: I'm running WITHOUT head shims at the moment (head is at 0.35mm or 0.014" now). The engine still tolerates nitro, so there's more to be had there I think.


Im quite surpised by your rpms actually, but Im not that familair with the 15's. I ran MVVS 21's in our club-20 pylon event. They were 'ok', meaningreliable & consistent, but no match compared to OPS & Webra. Unfortunately the latter 2 are no longer produced so I was kind of stuck running what was available at the time & basically getting my butt kicked. I switched to Novarossi 21's & closed the gap appreciably. Now I see these are slim pickens & PlanetHobby USA has essentially shut down. Anybody know a euro supplier of SE engines?

On a good day I would just tag 20K rpm with the MVVS whereas the other guys were getting 22+ consistently. I probably averaged the 19's more often. (We are at 5200' elev). Its a stock event which is how I left mine, but I suspect there may have been some 'deburring' going on among some others . Our rules limit 15% max nitro. The prop of choice was APC 7x6 wide. The stock 7x6 spins good to the ear but the 7x6W pulls better. 7x7 is too much, it falls outside the happy powerband.


Re pipe, I noticed you rotated to the RE configuration. Our rules prescribe SE but you might be getting some scavenging improvement that way. Ive checked my pipe length against the calcs & varied it just to be sure so it was pretty close to optimal in the end.

Re your venturi, I machined a lot of these babies in my quest for optimal setup & yes the bigger orfices will run impressively on the ground. But I found one can overdue this & have problems dying on typical/high G corners (8mm was about max & about proportionate to your 15's 6mm). I tried pressure pickups all over the place; pipe H.P, engine backplate, header, with/without check valve. It basically gets to be a pain tuning on the ground & crossing your fingers in the air you got it right. In the end it was plain old pipe pressure & 8mm orfice combo (bladder tank of course).

When I see the internals of my Novarossi & other engines, its kind of obvious the MVVS is more in the sport class. Ive pobably had 5 of them & you can caliper parts with pretty wide tolerances, casting flaws in the head, rpm variation of 3K (on 20K = 15%). The MVVS broke in quite quick but then plateud, the italian engines were the opposite. So generally I think their manufacturing & materials selection is not quite up to snuff vs the Italian stuff, but it is proportionate to price.

I am interested in your mods though if you care to share for interest sake. What lead you to increase exhaust timing? To what degree did your rpms creep up with head shim reduction? You're saying tthere was a stock 14 thou shim & you removed it? is it hard on plugs or still ok? Does the 15 have the insert/button style of combustion head that goes into the top of the liner & then the 'head' is bolted down over that?

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/25/2006 5:58:11 PM   
f3d


 

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From: Konz, Germany, GERMANY
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Hallo rudyboy,

I have see your vidio and in my opinion a few things are not perfekt.

First the pipe is to long
the prop is to big
the head volume is to big.

If you start the engine be careful with the monster starter with this little engine.
Keep the glow batterie on the plug as long as you needle the engine.

Try to get 28 000 or more on the groung.
The MVVS 15 is not the best performer in this class.
Better buy a Irvine 15, Rossi or Nelson one.

Best regards Michael

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RE: Rossi .15 tuned pipe question - 11/29/2006 9:16:05 AM   
Rudeboy



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Over here in Club 20 racing we use the (sadly no longer made) Irvine .20 racing engine. Rules state a 4.5mm venturi, no tuned pipes (we use the Irvine angled super silencer which is in fact a tuned exhaust), 6mm max exhaust diameter, and 5% nitro-20% castor fuel.
We use the APC 7x6W too, and it turns up pretty good on a strong engine. My best engine is happy on a full size 7x6W, so I don't even bother measuring rpm, since it is fast enough to follow the fast guys. Since these things are no longer made I'm not going to mess about with. It is hard to contain myself with a tach in one hand, and the needle in the other.
I also tried an MVVS .21 for Club 20... it's a no-go compared to an Irvine.
As for other viable options for a Club 20 racing engine: there is only the Nova Rossi. It is the only thing that comes close to an Irvine, and I have yet to see one that will produce the same power. I do not know where to get it.

Now about the MVVS .15:

It is designed as a rear exhaust engine. You can tell by the transfer channels: they only line up properly in the RE config.
I increased the exhaust timing because I though these pipes were meant to be run at close to 30000... 160° simply will not get you there.
I tried the engine without head shim because it was not piping up with a full size 6.5x5. Removing the head shim showed immediate improvement. I subsequently trimmed the prop a little because the engine was still running on the very edge. This cured a minor plug eating situation. When I say the head is at 14 thou, that means I have a clearance of 14thou between the piston and the head insert at top dead center. The stock head shim is 0.2mm thick.
The MVVS .15 indeed has a separate head insert and head clamp setup.

Thanks for the tips Michael. I will try some smaller props to see how the engine behaves at higher rpm. I will probably have to start making my own head inserts if I want more out if this thing.

I realise it's no Nelson, but at 50 euro a pop, these things are pretty cheap to experiment on.

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...I think it needs more power...

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