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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Aerodynamics >> XFoil and airfoil data
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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/24/2003 1:36:34 PM   
a088008



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I have been playing with Xfoil tonight, but cannot get a good smooth looking CpX plot. Is there anything I can do to fix my airfoil data? I used the CADD command twice with 10 degree angle.

I've attached the plot below.

-Q.

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-Q
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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/25/2003 11:27:51 AM   
Shortman



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where can i get this Xfoil software?


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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/25/2003 12:10:47 PM   
Ben Lanterman



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I would suggest a program which is called Profili 2.11 written by Stefano Duranti. It is freeware for the basic program and $15 for an upgrage on CD. It is basically an interface to the program Xfoil and makes it a lot easier to work with. The greater majority of the airfoils have been pre worked up and saves you the time of computing them. You can then make changes and see the results.

http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm

Highly recommended to look at data.

The original Xfoil is by Mark Drela and is a well thought out paneling method approach. It is just not as user friendly but is indeed the heart of Profili 2.11

http://cromagnon.stanford.edu/aa200b/handouts/xfoil_tutorial.html


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Ben Lanterman

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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/26/2003 2:07:01 AM   
Shortman



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thanks alot!


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Steven Carroll
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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/28/2003 2:06:11 AM   
BMatthews



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a088008, there's a whole Yahoo group dedicated to Xfoil and all it's foibles... Don't have the link but I'll bet you can get it at the Charles River club site...

[url]www.charlesriverrc.org[/url]

PS: never mind, here ya go...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xfoil/


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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/28/2003 12:46:08 PM   
wildblueyawner


 

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What Ben said - Get Profili. It turns XFoil into a Windows program (without altering the XFoil code); much easier to deal with.

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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/29/2003 12:42:08 PM   
a088008



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Thanx for all the suggestions. I downloaded Profili and had a look at it. I was impressed and could see how it would be helpfull. I will at some point invest in a copy, but for now my immediate problem is to refine my airfoil co-ordinates so that XFoil can use them. I ahve become quite proficient in XFoil by now and the command line interface does not scare me.

The main reason why my co-ordinates are a problem is since I have no easy way to export them from a CAD program (where I use splines to define the shape) to co-ordinates. I wrote a program to take an .bmp (bitmap) file and convert the picture of the airfoil into co-ordinates. The plot I produced in XFoil is as a result of the output from my program. As you can see, it's a bit rough and XFoil has a hard time converting it into acceptable panels. I'm in the process of refining the program in hopes that I can get something usefull out of it.

I'll let you guys know if I have any success with my program.

Oh, by the way, am I wasting my time? i.e. is there a program that already does what I'm intending?

-Q.

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-Q

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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/29/2003 2:11:38 PM   
wildblueyawner


 

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[QUOTE]Oh, by the way, am I wasting my time? i.e. is there a program that already does what I'm intending?[/QUOTE] Profili has a raster, e.g. .BMP, file-importing feature, but haven't tried it yet, so can't comment on its utility. Go to the list of airfoils, look in the Import menu.

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Wooopeeee!!! - 1/29/2003 3:17:22 PM   
a088008



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Ok. I've managed to find out what was going on. The ordering of the points seems to be important. I had my x-axis goinf from 0.0 to 1.0 and then back again in an anti-clockwise fashion. I changed it to 1.0 to 0.0 and back again (anti-clockwise) and it worked!

I now have graphs! Yee Haw! Now I can finally find out what is going on with an airfoil I designed by eye alone.

I'll post some pics of the results.

-Q.

< Message edited by a088008 -- Jan 29 2003 10:33AM >


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-Q

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Cp vs. X plot - 1/29/2003 3:19:23 PM   
a088008



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Here is the Cp vs. X plot.

-Q.

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-Q

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Polars - 1/29/2003 3:31:06 PM   
a088008



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Here are some polars at various alpha and Re.

Now if only I knew what all of this means. I think that one thing the data is telling me (CL vs. alpha graphs) is that my maximum lift co-efficient (CL) is at alpha = 10.0 degrees and is about 1.3, so that must be the stall angle. Am I way off base here?

I don't know what the Cl vs. CD and the Xlr / C graphs are telling me.
-Q.

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-Q

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graphs - 1/30/2003 3:43:17 AM   
Daniel Nelson


 

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You're right on the Cl/Cm vs alpha graphs; those are just the different values plotted at each alpha value. The Cl-alpha graph can also predict how violent the stall will be by how fast Cl falls off after stall. If it's a very shallow slope the stall will be mild and the plane should just mush through the stall; steep and your plane will fall like a rock.

The Cl vs Cd (drag polar graph) is in my (glider obsessed) mind the most important. It tells the designer over what range of Cl values the airplane is most effiecient. If you look at the graph, it shows that for a wide range of Cl, the Cd stays relatively low. Then, at some Cl, Cd starts increasing fast. That's called the drag bucket, and basically it says that as long as you stay between two particular Cls, then your plane is very efficient, but if you go over those, then you start incurring a huge drag penelty. Incidentally, this is not always where the airfoil starts to stall, it just happens that way with yours. Try running a symmetric airfoil from -15 to 15 degrees AoA, you'll really see the drag bucket form.

The other number that's also really important is the L/D, (Cl divided by Cd). It's the efficiency of the airfoil, and from it you can get the glide distance and duration. We glider designers will usually pick a Cl and alpha that maximizes either distance or duration and design around that.

As for the Xlr/C graph, I think it's showing Cl and Cm over the airfoil itself, with X/C=0 being the leading edge and X/C = 1 the trailing edge, although I don't know why or what that means. Personally, I don't think it's too important, I've never had to use it.

Hope this helps

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XFoil and airfoil data - 1/30/2003 7:01:47 AM   
drela


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by a088008
As you can see, it's a bit rough and XFoil has a hard time converting it into acceptable panels. [/QUOTE]

Try this...

LOAD airfoil_filename
MDES
FILT
! (repeats the previous FILT command)
!
.
.
EXEC

PANE
SAVE smoothed_airfoil_filename


Type "!" as often as needed to smooth the airfoil sufficiently. Looks like yours will need at least 10 repeats.

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Mark Drela

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Re: graphs - 1/30/2003 10:34:05 AM   
a088008



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From: San Diego, CA, USA
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That was exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you very much for the info.

One question. You mentioned that mushing occurs when the slope is shallow. Is this the case with my airfoil?

-Q.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daniel Nelson
You're right on the Cl/Cm vs alpha graphs; those are just the different values plotted at each alpha value. The Cl-alpha graph can also predict how violent the stall will be by how fast Cl falls off after stall. If it's a very shallow slope the stall will be mild and the plane should just mush through the stall; steep and your plane will fall like a rock.

The Cl vs Cd (drag polar graph) is in my (glider obsessed) mind the most important. It tells the designer over what range of Cl values the airplane is most effiecient. If you look at the graph, it shows that for a wide range of Cl, the Cd stays relatively low. Then, at some Cl, Cd starts increasing fast. That's called the drag bucket, and basically it says that as long as you stay between two particular Cls, then your plane is very efficient, but if you go over those, then you start incurring a huge drag penelty. Incidentally, this is not always where the airfoil starts to stall, it just happens that way with yours. Try running a symmetric airfoil from -15 to 15 degrees AoA, you'll really see the drag bucket form.

The other number that's also really important is the L/D, (Cl divided by Cd). It's the efficiency of the airfoil, and from it you can get the glide distance and duration. We glider designers will usually pick a Cl and alpha that maximizes either distance or duration and design around that.

As for the Xlr/C graph, I think it's showing Cl and Cm over the airfoil itself, with X/C=0 being the leading edge and X/C = 1 the trailing edge, although I don't know why or what that means. Personally, I don't think it's too important, I've never had to use it.

Hope this helps
[/QUOTE]

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-Q

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