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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> Good News // Bad News??
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Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 11:14:48 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hossfly
>>>>>>>>>
"but the way it was explained up front was that they wanted to do this, they were not going to tell us till it was done and we didn't have a choice. No big deal, but why not explain it like this in the first place if this is the intention. It makes sence and would make a lot of people say "good idea" instead of "what are they thinking". A little info goes a long way. Thanks Jim."
<<<<<<<<

Flyboy, two things here:
#1 The *up front* only related ONE incident with one Mr. D Holland. It was NOT any *THEY*.

#2. Flyboy, don't be intimidated by those that demand *Evidence*.

You made a very fine Hypothetical Supposition. Nothing wrong with it at all. Like with my opinions of what CAN/could happen, there will always be those that yell for evidence. Our National President has the same kind of opposition, and from some that are supposed to be smart professionals.
As Calvin Coolidge said, "...unrewarded genius is almost a proverb" and ".... the world is full of educated derelicts."
We have plenty examples of those that would not recognize *evidence* if it totally blocked their path.

These people I associate with Capt. John Smith when he boasted to the press that in 40 years at sea he had never experienced a life/death situation. That was the night he sailed as Captain of the Titanic.

Did you notice that Jim B. "forgot" the details of one question I asked and that on another he grinned a logic problem, yet never answered the direct question? That boy will win an election sometime, somewhere, maybe??

Hang in there. [/QUOTE]

ROFLOL!

Horrace the Horrible,
I am able and willing to admit that *I* am very far from perfect and unlike you and your District VIII leadership even make mistakes. Like most humans I fail to catch them from time to time but I also am able and willing to admit to them.

The logic error was that there SHOULD not have been a double negative. The word "not" in the sentence about Doug Holland was a typo the spell checker passed and I missed. I am ashamed and humbly apologize for not being as all around perfect as my self proclaimed mentors.

As for not recalling the details from almost 20 years ago, what would you have me do? Make them up so you can throw MORE rocks? Sorry but I have to admit to another human trait not recalling what were at the time trivial non-important details that I was not paying that much attention to. I never did well in the fiction writing business so I am at a loss of how I could have done better.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 26

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 1:07:32 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hossfly


Flyboy, two things here:
#1 The *up front* only related ONE incident with one Mr. D Holland. It was NOT any *THEY*.

#2. Flyboy, don't be intimidated by those that demand *Evidence*.



[/QUOTE]

Item #2

Flyboy, do you know what happens when you make accusations without evidence (this is not a warning or a threat. It's to make a point to Horrace)? You soon have lawyers sending you letters to cease and desist. Isn't that right, Horrace?

Horrace, why don't you explain exactly what Doug Holland's complaint was. Is this a case of misery loves company? Free speech is protected by the Constitution of the United States, slander and liable are not.

JR

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 27

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 7:03:46 PM   
F106A



Posts: 1483
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Clifton, NJ, USA
Status: online 		Hi,
How will the positions of these three new corporations be filled?
From reading this thread it seems that they appointed themselves to these positions, but what happens after that? Are these positions tied to their elected position within the EC, ie, once they retire, or lose an election, will they have to be replaced? It seems from my understanding that these positions are theirs until they voluntarily give them up regardless of their status with the EC. What process is in place to replace them?
Jon

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 28

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 8:44:22 PM   
FLYBOY



Posts: 8696
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R


Item #2

Flyboy, do you know what happens when you make accusations without evidence (this is not a warning or a threat. It's to make a point to Horrace)? You soon have lawyers sending you letters to cease and desist. Isn't that right, Horrace?

Horrace, why don't you explain exactly what Doug Holland's complaint was. Is this a case of misery loves company? Free speech is protected by the Constitution of the United States, slander and liable are not.

JR [/QUOTE]

This is exactly why I had to backtrack and explain myself. You make a comment or dissagree, and all of a sudden people start talking about lawsuits and suing you. I quit looking at the ama board a while ago and don't know why I looked at this post, but now I remember why I quit looking at it. It just ticks me off. You have a web that discusses why they do what they do and people explain what could happen if things go the way they are going, and people start crying foul and slander and suing. Just kind of makes it all not worth even commenting on because in the larger scope of things, what is discussed here falls on deaf ears at ama anyway. Just my opinion.

_____________________________

Fly it till the wings come off.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 29

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 9:26:45 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Flyboy

There are at least three AMA leaders that see almost every post in this forum. Basically, they are looking for good ideas and the thoughts of the membership. The major lament that I have heard is that so much of the information here is misinformation. When that happens it leads the thread nowhere. Take a look at the thread about insurance coverage, as an example. There was a poll put up asking if the AMA should cover accidents caused by non-AMA members, in reference to the landowner. The entire thread was based on the misconception that the owner of the site is not covered for such incidents. As a result, a large number of posts on the thread were trying to argue the point, when the fact is that the site owner is covered.

In the case of this thread it was started by Horrace. He did not say what Holland had claimed and why. He IMPLIED that things were happening with the split that have not been set yet. As a result the thread started to go off on a tangent that had no basis.

Sometimes, legitimate questions go unanswered for lack of information. F106A just asked one. In the case of the captive, which is not part of the three other corporations, a board was named. Some time ago, the question was asked how long they will serve. At the time, I made some inquiries and never got an answer. Now the thread can go to speculation, or someone that actually knows will answer it.

When you suggested the EC was less than honest, as Horrace does, I asked for something to prove it. That's not the first time I have asked that of a poster. I guess I just do not see the use of a hypothetical that asks what happens IF they are dishonest.

In the case of F106A, he has posted before that he has a relationship with his VP. Will F106A ask him and report the answer?

Although some posts in other threads are clearly libelous, I have never heard of anyone being threatened or sued for anything said in a discussion group.

This forum can be used for sharing information or misinformation.

JR

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 30

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 9:51:40 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by FLYBOY


This is exactly why I had to backtrack and explain myself. You make a comment or dissagree, and all of a sudden people start talking about lawsuits and suing you. I quit looking at the ama board a while ago and don't know why I looked at this post, but now I remember why I quit looking at it. It just ticks me off. You have a web that discusses why they do what they do and people explain what could happen if things go the way they are going, and people start crying foul and slander and suing. Just kind of makes it all not worth even commenting on because in the larger scope of things, what is discussed here falls on deaf ears at ama anyway. Just my opinion. [/QUOTE]

Well. . While I agree with your frustration, I think you are not right on target. Go look at MY last post under the thread "AMA EC MEETING" or read on here how open discussion CAN have an impact:

Thank you for withdrawing this agenda item, because perception is all we have to present to members and detractors alike. Now would you PLEASE put me back on the list of District VIII modelers before more that just my club EC wonders why you have taken such an aggressive stance?

Thank you.

Jim Branaum [email]jgbmain@earthlink.net[/email]
AMA 1428

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Sandy Frank"
To: "AMA D-VIII Modeling"
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:02 AM
Subject: [D8-L] REMOVED !


>
>

> It is the PERCEPTION of an act or event which MATTERS !!>
> It is my chosen desire to REMOVE and WITHDRAW an agenda
> item which I have placed for consideration on the FEB. 8/9 meeting
> agenda...
>
> 4.e.
> Withhold motion makers
> and 2nds from published
> records of minutes
> Frank
>
> Please REMOVE this item for consideration at this meeting
> and also please remove it from the AMA WWW site posting of the agenda..
>
> This item has met with far too much confusion and misunderstanding...
>
> While it was suggested in an effort to add to the FACTUAL
> nature of the published minutes of AMA EC
> it is and can be seen by many as some type of "COVER UP"
> of facts rather than a fuller and more accurate
> disclosure of the activities of the AMA EC..
>
> Sandy Frank
> AMA D8 VP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 31

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/29/2003 10:54:24 PM   
Taildrager


 

Posts: 921
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Oregon, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Dividing the AMA into 3 different parts is a great idea, as this will mean hiring more help, keeping 3 sets of books instead of one, hiring more CPA's, lawyers, and best of all being able to shuffle money around to better hide mismanagement like we have had in the last couple of years. Dues will most certainly go up as the AMA management can complain that one of the entities is losing money, and the members have to cover that loss, and of course they will have the the numbers plublished in the AMA rag to prove it. In stead of tightening their belts in this tough economic time, the idiots managing the AMA seem to want spend more by raising dues to the members without just cause.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 32

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 1:02:02 AM   
F106A



Posts: 1483
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Clifton, NJ, USA
Status: online 		JR,
I never said I had a "relationship" with Dist II VP, I'm not tied into him in any way. What I said he has responded to my e-mails in a forthright and open way. I've knocked AMA too, but I'm also fair and need to note that I feel Dave is doing an excellent job for Dist. II.
Hardly a "relationship".
And yes, I did forward my question to him.
Jon

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 33

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 2:21:27 AM   
F106A



Posts: 1483
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Clifton, NJ, USA
Status: online 		Hi,
Here is Dave's reply to my question. He replied in less than 2 hours!

Hi Jon,
I think I've read through the thread on RCU where this is being discussed.
Just to be clear there may be two separate issues being discussed there, but I'm not quite sure. The issue of the Insurance Captive and the issue of splitting AMA into three corporations are separate. The Captive was created
to a dormant state to act as an insurance parachute in case AMA is ever unable to secure a liability policy or if the ability to have one written becomes cost prohibitive. This is nothing more than being prepared and pro-active to handle whatever situation we're confronted with because of the current, hard insurance market. Similar to what was done (and worked out
extremely well for us) in the mid-eighties when we were unable to secure a policy then.
The issue of dividing AMA into three separate corporations has been being discussed for as long as I've been on the EC (a little over two years). The discussion has been a little more aggressive during the last six to ninemonths or so. Doug Holland is in the process of a study to determine thepluses and minuses of the concept. For instance, the primary reason for considering a split initially was to protect AMA assets. Personally, I'm haven't been convinced creating this sort of shell will do that. And... even
if it does I'd like to know if the additional burden of creating, then
operating the three corporations outweighs the benefit received. The results of Doug's efforts should answer these questions and others. So, right now, there really is no answer to your questions since it hasn't even been determined yet that this is the path AMA should take. If and when the concept becomes reality, then I'd be able to answer those questions for you.
Dave

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 34

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 3:12:25 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		F106A

I apologize if the word "relationship" bothered you. Perhaps I should have used "dialog".

Thanks for getting an answer from Dave Mathewson. It's not surprising to me that he responded, most of the EC will, if approached in a less than adversarial manner.

Trying to sort fact from fiction is a lot easier if we will just ask. We now have three statements. Mathewson, Holland and Dave Brown all have taken the position that splitting the AMA is being looked at, but, that the details are not yet determined.

I guess we will have to wait and see what develops. Or... we can speculate and work ourselves into a frenzy over something that may never reach a resolution. In the meantime, some may want to consider becoming Leader Member's.

JR

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 35

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 6:59:57 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3988
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline 		>>>>>>>
In the case of this thread it was started by Horrace. He did not say what Holland had claimed and why. He IMPLIED that things were happening with the split that have not been set yet. As a result the thread started to go off on a tangent that had no basis.
<<<<<<<<<<

JR, please answer me this question. In your third sentence above, does your use of the pronoun "He" refer back to the noun "Horrace" in the first sentence or, as in proper usage, refer to the noun "Holland" in the second sentence?

"Horrace" implied NOTHING. I stated what I asked Mr. Holland and I stated what he told me.
Actually Mr. Holland did not imply anything as far as I can understand. He was very direct.
Here it is as in the start of this thread:

>>>>>>>>
The bad news -- to me and IMO -- is that when I asked Mr. Holland why he did not use his monthly article to advise the membership of his plans to divide AMA into several corporations, he replied that his methods included getting his plan all complete, then to get it approved by the Executive Council, and then to tell the membership what was done. (*What WAS done*) In discussion, I asked Mr. Holland why he never used his column to inform the membership and seek their inputs about his plans. Mr. Holland advised me that he rather keep his research among knowledgeable persons, accountants and lawyers.
<<<<<<<<<

There is no doubt that I disagree with Mr. Holland's methods. There is no doubt that the vast majority of AMA doesn't give a whoot, and that the voters prefer Mr. Holland's methods over mine at a 4 to 1 ratio.
There is definitely no reason for Mr. Holland to consider providing any information on how he conducts business. OTOH, I do still try to inform. Always have and I always will.

One thing I omitted in my little essay on the term "Conspire" is that the entire Executive Council (EC) has approved the budget that has hired the other accountants and attorneys that Mr. Holland uses to conduct his business. None of this has been discussed in the "Model Aviation" magazine articles. Why does the everyday AMA Member have to research EC minutes to have some idea of what plans the EC is formulating?
I relate that method to waiting until Saddam sprays the anthrax dust all over the East Coast. Same method just a much smaller scale.
We have no other media to assist us in that regard.
So be it.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 36

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 10:45:25 PM   
xp8103



Posts: 774
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Augusta, ME, USA
Status: offline 		It seems that what Horrace is implying in the post above and the answer that Jon got from DIIVP Dave Mathewson are at odds with each other?
Horrace states that Mr. Holland is going to make the changes (which Jim seems to think will require a change in by-laws which means some membership vote) before the membership is notified of the change and Mr. Mathewson states that nothing has been decided on as of yet and he isn't convinced that the split is a good idea.
For me, anything the AMA can do to ensure that our insurance coverage stay solvent is a good idea. I'm not a lawyer nor a CPA so I don't know what is involved with that. Liability insurance is getting to be an expensive proposition these days, especially when the law firms need to cover the costs of those TV ads... Just ask anyone in the medical profession.
As for splitting the AMA into three separate corporations, I don't know how this will save anyone any money. And the AMA has been providing liability insurance (and accepting liability for its membership) for decades as a single entity, I am not sure why this issue is coming up now?? Perhaps because they have more assets than simply a membership list to protect now?


_____________________________

Nik Rende
AMA 83249

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 37

Good News // Bad News?? - 1/30/2003 11:21:24 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hossfly

JR, please answer me this question. In your third sentence above, does your use of the pronoun "He" refer back to the noun "Horrace" in the first sentence or, as in proper usage, refer to the noun "Holland" in the second sentence?

[/QUOTE]It referred to you, Horrace.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 38

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