RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!!  
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RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/23/2006 9:58:54 PM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		I've tried to think about this issue logically, and here's what I (think) I think:
A well-tuned revo mix will always override a gyro, because of the time lag mentioned above. If the revo mix is working right, the nose doesn't yaw, hence the gyro has nothing to sense, so it won't do anything but pass thru the rudder input, which is coming from the revo mix in the tx.
But if the gyro is in hh mode and the nose isn't yawing, the gyro thinks it is doing its job and that it doesn't need to send any signal to the tail esc...
And if the nose does yaw, the gyro's attempt at compensation is combined with the revo mix so it overcontrols...
I think.
Anyway, the moral is that revo mix and gyros don't mix, at least during initial setup.

And I'm sure that the inertia of the tail rotor and gear is causing your difficulty with the gyro. Since revo mix is going in at the same time as throttle it is working, mostly, but since the gyro needs to see the yaw before it can correct, it is too slow and the tail drifts off.

It sounds like your channel 5 ATV is setting the gains correctly, I think your radio goes from 0 to 100 with 50 in the middle doesn't it? Instead of mine which calls it -150 to +150 with 0 in the middle.

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The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

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       Post #: 26

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/23/2006 10:08:40 PM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Messages crossed there, sorry. I can't seem to get any videos to post from here, maybe a bandwidth issue, sorry. But you'd know the difference immediately. The CP tail twitch can even build up, getting more violent with each twitch, and it's a lot faster.
WHat you are seeing is normal behavior from the stock tail, I think, and you are getting better performance from your revo than with a gyro with that setup, because you have taken the time to really get it right.
I think the gyro is a shortcut convenience thing anyway, they haven't been around all that long, people flew helis and did 3-d before there were gyros, just like you with revo mix and pilotage.
You are going to have to get the DD tail to do any better, I'm afraid.


And the math always confuses me, especially since the DX6 waffles about so much, some menus go from 0 to 100, some from -150 to +150, its nuts. All I know is that at 95 percent gain in the ATV, that's about 2/3 of full travel if it was a servo.


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The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

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RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/23/2006 10:41:30 PM   
chopperdudes


 

Posts: 648
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		ya, i'll try to have my lhs get a dd tail or get my dad to drive me to john's. on my tx, the ATV of channel 5 is 0~140, for both switch position, but there's another menu which allows you to adjust 2 (3 if assigned to a 3-postion switch) different value for the gyro gain, and assign it to any switch (ie. allows you to have different gain in different modes/idle ups when put to that switch), and with that menu, you get basically -100 ~ +100. so if i set my gain ATV to 50%, and gyro gain to 70, that basically equals 35 gain when i adjust my gain channel ATV to 100%. i know that the gyro is a shortcut, but it's just that it'll perform almost as good with revo and stock gyro. and that makes me frustrated. if i put it on hh mode and jab up the throttle without revo, it'll swing amost 90 degrees before it'll stop.

to explain wat i mean by the ATV value earlier, here's how it is.


switch up switch down
> 0~140% > 0~140% ----------> this is the channel 5 ATV.


in the gyro menu:

switch position gain
up N100~0~A100
ctr same as above
down same as above

switch - A~H
mode - std / gy.

_____________________________

i wont buy anymore helis, i wont buy any more helis, i wont, wow! is that a ? i won't buy any more starting tomorrow.

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       Post #: 28

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 1:39:08 AM   
choppersrule


 

Posts: 3927
Joined: 5/3/2006
From: Greenwood, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Robmoney,

I can't find my notes on the dd setup, what website did you get your dd rotor stuff?

Thanks again, and again,

Dave / Choppersrule

quote:

ORIGINAL: robmoney

I second the motion on the DD setup!

I had the dual motors when I added my zoom HH! Same result!

Added the DD, and BAM! Held like a champ!

My DD parts were like 27 bucks...... I am buying another motor for back up it's so good. Prop is probably not as tough, but they are 89 cents...



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Left skid low....

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       Post #: 29

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 3:10:43 AM   
robmoney



Posts: 323
Joined: 11/22/2006
From: Hurst, TX, USA
Status: offline 		www.heli-fever.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=gw

Every thing is here!

I got my stuff at my LHS!

I was lucky...

_____________________________

If I could only stop modding my heli???

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       Post #: 30

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 11:13:56 PM   
chopperdudes


 

Posts: 648
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		is this considered a classic tail twitch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7CWzTvDrk

and what's the difference between hh mode and rate mode anyways?
i need +60 subtrim for the tail to hold in rate mode, however, when i switch to hh mode, the tail will swing to the left, how can this be corrected?

_____________________________

i wont buy anymore helis, i wont buy any more helis, i wont, wow! is that a ? i won't buy any more starting tomorrow.

(in reply to robmoney)
       Post #: 31

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 11:24:28 PM   
HeliTB



Posts: 1183
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: Fort Washington, MD, USA
Status: offline 		chopperdudes...with that wag I would say your gyro is set to high.


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       Post #: 32

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 11:27:14 PM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Nice vid. Yes that is your gyro twitching the tail. Now imagine that happening about 5 times as fast and increasing in swing with each twitch. That's what I'd call "classic".
Of course that's extreme but it can happen.
HH mode is optimised to hold the heading as a priority. SR or rate mode is supposed to give an even yaw proportional to the stick input in either direction, hence standard rate.
With a tail motor I don't think you will be able to switch modes in flight unless you have separate trim settings available for each mode. The SR mode needs trim due to setup issues, the HH mode needs no trim by definition, so when you switch to HH mode with all that subtrim the gyro thinks you are commanding a yaw, and gives it to you.
With a CP tail you adjust the servo to need as little trim as possible in SR mode, then it is possible to switch modes in flight.
I'm not sure if you can do this with a tail motor/FP tail.
I just leave mine in HH mode.

_____________________________

The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

(in reply to chopperdudes)
       Post #: 33

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/24/2006 11:28:18 PM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeliTB

chopperdudes...with that wag I would say your gyro is set to high.


Yeah, he knows, he's just showing me/us something in particular.


_____________________________

The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

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       Post #: 34

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/25/2006 2:15:53 AM   
chopperdudes


 

Posts: 648
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		is the black prop with adapter better ( http://www.heli-fever.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=192 ) or the orange prop with motor better ( http://www.heli-fever.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=93 ) ?

_____________________________

i wont buy anymore helis, i wont buy any more helis, i wont, wow! is that a ? i won't buy any more starting tomorrow.

(in reply to Jellyson)
       Post #: 35

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/25/2006 10:03:02 AM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		I don't know, I haven't been able to try the squared-off ones, I can't find any on the racks hereabouts and I don't order off the net for some reason.
But the 4530 is available in either color, and there are several other props that fit on the adapter. That's why I like the adapter even if it is more expensive, it makes it really easy to change props.
Maybe robmoney is using the squared off one.

_____________________________

The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

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RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/25/2006 7:21:35 PM   
chopperdudes


 

Posts: 648
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		MERRY X'MAS!!!

i'm just about to give up on the zoom hh. went out today, one of those days with minimum wind. and start to flip it. well, the tail went loose no matter how well the revo was set. i figured that i'd keep going just flip it higher and try to learn more on inverted. well, had a few hairy moment and once that the head was actually facing me after alittle of inverted and then flipped back. and then there's one time that wasn't so lucky. somehow i manage to dump it into the dirt. lhs closed 3 days in a row. i just realized that the shipping alone is 15 bux from helifever and i think i'm better off going to john's photo and hobby to try to find the dd.

i can only think of one thing that's causing this if the problem is not the gyro itself. there was once this incident where my tail rotor hit the ground somehow and a part of it broke off (the blade). i manage to super glue it back on and it was pretty sturdy. then i stick two peices of masking tape on it (one piece per side). could this possibly be my problem?

if i'm still stuck, then i might try to return the hh gyro to my lhs or if they won't accept it, i'll try to get a g90 by giving them 20 bux more...

_____________________________

i wont buy anymore helis, i wont buy any more helis, i wont, wow! is that a ? i won't buy any more starting tomorrow.

(in reply to Jellyson)
       Post #: 37

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/25/2006 7:36:04 PM   
Jellyson



Posts: 920
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		your zoom will probably work fine when you upgrade the tail

_____________________________

The helicopter is the only flying machine ever invented capable of crashing into _itself_.

(in reply to chopperdudes)
       Post #: 38

RE: zoom heading hold gyro, PLEASE HELP!!! - 12/25/2006 9:48:55 PM   
chopperdudes


 

Posts: 648
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		how much did you get the dd conversion for at john's?

and oh ya, how do you post pictures on here?

_____________________________

i wont buy anymore helis, i wont buy any more helis, i wont, wow! is that a ? i won't buy any more starting tomorrow.

(in reply to Jellyson)