Ethanol (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums] >> RC Fuels



Message

jmboss -> Ethanol (2/11/2002 12:29:31 AM)

Has anybody experimented with using ethanol instead of methanol for your fuel?

Are you mixing castor or a synthetic oil. etc?

What are you mix percentages?

Thanks.

Joe



Mikke -> RE: Ethanol (5/24/2007 12:14:43 AM)

Greetings !
...that´s an interesting question, since here in Sweden,different fuels and their pros and cons are a hot topic nowadays, due to environmental issues.

I have an old sidevalved,2-cyl.watercooled boat-engine(Albin O2) in my open,wooden double-ender from 1948, and have run it on E85, i.e ethanol 85% and 15% gasoline, for over 10 years. This concoction is nowadays quite easy to find at most gasstations. Current price per liter in Sweden is ca one USD.
It seems a lot more easy to find than methanol, which has become more hard to find, maybe because of its toxicity??

Anybody here that has tried ethanol+gasoline+oils, synthetic or otherwise, or any other mixes of similar properties except methanol on(and in) a glow-engine for aeroplanes??

Regards,
Mikke



nickd1 -> RE: Ethanol (8/12/2007 1:33:44 PM)

i only use ethanol now because of its higher btu and i get over 20 min out of a 4oz tank with an ap .15. on methanol only about 12 min



Jezmo -> RE: Ethanol (8/12/2007 8:11:41 PM)

What kind of glow plug do you use? [8D]



downunder -> RE: Ethanol (8/13/2007 2:20:39 AM)

I read an article recently about fuels for CL team racing where some pretty exotic stuff is used to get both power and low fuel consumption. One of the things he tried was ethanol (marketed as methylated spirits) with 20% nitro and 20% castor. This gave instant starts and long range with quite high lap speeds. He was most impressed and rather surprised too :). I'm inclined to try it myself but without the nitro.




speedster 1919 -> RE: Ethanol (8/20/2007 12:12:55 PM)

Ethanol by itself is twice the price of Methanol. The 2007 INDY cars all used 100% Ethanol this year for the 500. Since I live in corn country USA they are building many Ethanol plants. The INDY cars didn't seem to get better mileage...........



Bone -> RE: Ethanol (8/31/2007 4:03:50 AM)

Here in the Land of Oz, a litre of ethanol is still twice that of methanol

I also have a copy of the article mentioned in Downunder's reply. Am starting holidays in 3 days time & I will spend quite a few hours at the field flying models & running engines. Already have a batch of the ethanol (metho) fuel mixed ready to go for some engines on the test bench. If satisified, will fly some models (single engine 2 stroke) with the mix but NOT willing to risk my twin engine model at this point [8D]

Am very tempted to also try in a 4 stroke engine

Will endeavour to report back in due course with my findings.



AndyW -> RE: Ethanol (9/23/2007 4:51:00 AM)

Having to spend a few weeks in the big city gave me the opportunity to find denatured alcohol. This is ethanol spiked with 15% methanol to keep you from drinking it.

I note that OS has come out with an engine designed to run on ethanol and also a biodegradable oil. Apparently it's not castor, which is also biodegradable. That can be seen here,, http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/2007spring-summer/max55axbe/index.htm

Slightly lower power, but 40% better mileage.

But note that they refer to a special glow plug that they've developed.

Platinum, as used in conventional plugs, has a catalytic action on methanol. Those that have used ethanol, have you had any plug problems? Hot or cold plug? any differences.

I'll be giving ethanol a try in any case. Might as well, I love to tinker with engines. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hopeso&p=r




Jezmo -> RE: Ethanol (9/24/2007 6:23:07 PM)

Hi Andy,
A couple of weeks ago I went and bought a gallon of E85 (I found it for only slightly more than premium grade gas) and when finished mixing I had 10% nitro, 20% oil with 5% of that being castor the rest klotz syn. My test bed is an older SuperTigre GS40 with the stock muffler. On the first run it made very little difference when the glow was pulled at full throttle, however it didn't idle without glow power. Below about 5 or 6000 it started to get very rough and then would die. At that point it had a Fox RC Long w/idle bar. (That plug was quite old and I am not even sure it was good. This engine and plug had been sitting for a long time.) I switched the plug to an OS 8 which made a noticeable improvement in the idle. I then put an OS type F in it and that made the idle very smooth with no loss in rpm when the glow power was removed. It had lost between 2 and 400 rpm's at the top over 10% glow according to my tach. All of this was done with a 10X6 MA S2 scimitar prop. I didn't actually measure the time it ran on a tank but it was definitely using less fuel than when it was on methanol. Also the transition was still good although slightly richer in the mid range. Overall the engine runs quite well and I intend to try it in my Super Sportster soon and see how it is in the air.

Good luck with your experiments and post your results so we can compare notes.



bkdavy -> RE: Ethanol (9/24/2007 8:07:50 PM)

Very interesting results. If the fuel flow is reduced (better mileage), should the oil content be increased to ensure proper lubrication?

Brad



gkamysz -> RE: Ethanol (9/24/2007 8:54:29 PM)

Andy, did it say in OS's literature it wasn't castor oil? I just assumed it was. I have some Rossi R1 plugs I might try this with. I don't' know why OS decided to make their ethanol plugs a different thread size. E85 in my town is about 10% less than regular unleaded. I've been meaning to try this all year, just haven't gotten around to it.

quote:

Very interesting results. If the fuel flow is reduced (better mileage), should the oil content be increased to ensure proper lubrication?


Good question. I've also asked but I don't think there is a definite answer. By that theory, As nitro content increases oil content should be reduced. Andy and I run diesels which run about half the fuel per stroke and yet diesel mixes have similar amounts of oil. There is also the idea of the fuel diluting the lubricant. In a glow this isn't much of a problem. Alcohol easily evaporates and the oil is left to lubricate. In a diesel we have kerosene which doesn't evaporate as well(considerably less, some say not at all) in the crankcase and dilutes the oil. Yet diesels run just fine. In reality it's a very hard question to answer. Even the standard 20% oil is far more than needed in most cases.



Jezmo -> RE: Ethanol (9/24/2007 10:34:39 PM)

Brad that is a good point to check out. I am going to have to fly mine for a while and then take it apart and see how the rod bushing and crank pin look. I ran it for at least 30 minutes on the stand but I don't know if that would be enough to see any wear or heating of the pin. It certainly didn't act like it was in any distress though. It ran great no matter how long I left it at full throttle. I guess I will find out when I tear it down.



AndyW -> RE: Ethanol (9/24/2007 10:45:52 PM)

Jezmo,

I'm encouraged by your results. By the sound of it, you're blending the E85 with a conventional fuel to get your nitro and ending up with a blend that has more than 15% methanol. Can you give us that figure? I'm suspecting that even 15% might be enough to provide the catalytic action to initiate combustion with just the right conventional plug.

But, as OS points out, their fuel is strictly and only methanol with NO nitro. And that, no doubt, required the development of a new plug type. Good for OS. Got to hand it to them.

What I'm going to do is use the E85 straight at 80% and the usual 20% oil. If that doesn't work, I'll get an ethanol plug from OS and drill and tap the head to suit.

Greg and Brad,

You make some good points about lubrication. Percentage in the fuel is one thing but total oil processed per revolution is another. But, as our diesel experience shows, it doesn't seem to matter. I mix 20% castor in my diesel fuel but get twice the mileage so per flight, the engine sees only half the oil. Yet, the engines run fine and last just as long but longer. But wait, kerosene has lubricating properties all its own. A similar product to heat homes with is, after all, called fuel oil. That might be a factor in diesel fuel.

I note that OS does not divulge oil percentages and perhaps they're running somewhat more than conventional glow fuels. That might account for some of the lower power not to mention no nitro.

And Greg, you make a point about the oil OS uses. It just may very well be good old castor. There's a link somewhere to their flying the engine on a seaplane and if memory serves, (usually doesn't) I got the impression that the oil was entirely new.




gkamysz -> RE: Ethanol (9/25/2007 2:12:25 AM)

I assumed it was castor because that is what works best in our fuels. It is proven. Now they say it's biodegradable to please the environmentalists who don't know any better. It's all a front to make modeling look friendly and a way to get some free press today. Not a bad thing. Pretty soon they'll be talking about how bad batteries are for the environment.

Ethanol does have a weak catalytic reaction to platinum, so adding some nitro takes care of that with regular plugs. I'd be curious to find out what makes the new plug special.

One of the guys in the diesel forum worked for a UAV company and they ran Saito four strokes converted to spark ignition for hours on 2% Amsoil and balance JP-8(kerosene). This really brought doubt in my mind about kerosene diluting the lubricant. But four stroke lubrication is a little different than two stroke, in that the mixture isn't introduced directly into the crankcase. I have some four stroke diesels that are run extremely lean and seem to do just fine with 20% oil. I have an FS-48 that burns ~11oz of 20% castor and 80% kerosene per hour. That's a little more than 2 oz of oil per hour, how much does it use on glow?



AndyW -> RE: Ethanol (9/25/2007 4:23:55 AM)

Greg,

Good info, thanks. When I did some research into the issue of ethanol and platinum, I couldn't get any answers to the questions specific to our concerns.

Poked around again and I found this,

Direct catalytic conversion of methane to ethanol

Document Type and Number:United States Patent 5504262 Link to this page:http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5504262.html

Abstract:The present invention relates to a method for making mixtures of ethanol and methanol by reacting methane, water and an acidic aqueous solution of a electron acceptor, preferably Fe.sub.2 (SO.sub.4).sub.3 or Fe(ClO.sub.4).sub.3, having a pH of less than 3, preferably 1 to 3, more preferably 1 to 2 in the presence of a noble metal catalyst, typically platinum or palladium, having a diameter of at least about 100 .ANG. at a temperature of at least 60.degree. C. to about 100.degree. C. The process is advantageous as it provides a method of making ethanol directly from methanol at low cost and high thermodynamic efficiency.



GrahamC -> RE: Ethanol (9/25/2007 12:24:27 PM)

Good day all,

Interesting topic. I have been planning to set some time aside to have a try with E85 based fuel, just hasn't happened. I also have large gasser that I am converting and am planning on using a glow plug and an alcohol and gas blend fuel (as detailed by others in a thread here on RcUniverse).

I have run across some interesting discussions on ethanol in our glow engines. A couple of interesting links with some food for thought:

http://www.controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ethanol&&start=0

http://www.dkd.net/clmodels/glowfuel.html

and http://members.optusnet.com.au/~smithlw/Site%202/Fuel%20Developments.html

the above primarily aimed at team racing but still applicable for other interests.


cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada




Jezmo -> RE: Ethanol (9/26/2007 9:32:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Jezmo,

I'm encouraged by your results. By the sound of it, you're blending the E85 with a conventional fuel to get your nitro and ending up with a blend that has more than 15% methanol. Can you give us that figure? I'm suspecting that even 15% might be enough to provide the catalytic action to initiate combustion with just the right conventional plug.

But, as OS points out, their fuel is strictly and only methanol with NO nitro. And that, no doubt, required the development of a new plug type. Good for OS. Got to hand it to them.

What I'm going to do is use the E85 straight at 80% and the usual 20% oil. If that doesn't work, I'll get an ethanol plug from OS and drill and tap the head to suit.



Sorry for delay.

No, I have some Nitromethane and added that to get my mix. (We have a car race shop nearby that carries Nitromethane) It starts and runs great but I am going to try some denatured alcohol to see how that works. I just want to know how much effect the 15% gasoline is having on the rough idle and the resulting need for a hot plug. It appears as though the ethanol is reacting with the glow plug just like methanol and my belief is that the gasoline is causing the roughness as I tried gas/glow in this same engine. The more gasoline you add the rougher it runs and the hotter the plug it needs in order to idle well. E85 appears to be a good substitute for regular glow fuel at least to me. It's cheap, and runs longer per tank. The drop in power doesn't seem that great although I haven't yet flown it. (Coming soon though)



downunder -> RE: Ethanol (9/27/2007 12:02:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy
If the fuel flow is reduced (better mileage), should the oil content be increased to ensure proper lubrication?

In my opinion, yes. I use zero nitro fuel which gives much better economy than nitro fuels so I never use less than 20% all castor and stress that to anyone who's thinking of blending their own fuel. Sometimes even 20% isn't enough as with my ST G51 which was acting up badly when I first flew with it. I knew it was extremely economical, much more so than other similar sized engines, and I never got it to run properly until one day I was forced to use a fuel with 25% castor (I ran out of my usual mix). That completely transformed the way it ran and had me baffled for some time until I put two and two together. It was overheating on the 20% oil because of not enough oil flow per cycle.



AndyW -> RE: Ethanol (9/27/2007 3:48:50 AM)

Thanks Jezmo,

It would be nice to get 100% ethanol but no one can sell it.

Andy



gkamysz -> RE: Ethanol (10/20/2007 11:13:19 PM)

I was at the I-Hobby Expo in Chicago today. Nothing out of the ordinary. Lots of car stuff, electric stuff, and other stuff (trains, plastics) I'm not into. So, I walk into the Great Planes booth. There is a display case with OS and Super Tigre glow engines but nobody behind it. I walk away and came back a few hours later. I wanted to handle the new FSa-56 and 81 so I asked somebody. A gentleman came over and opened up the case and we started talking.

I asked about the OS .55 BioEthanol. He said it's a Japanese thing. They are environmentally conscious and do things like that even though it doesn't make monetary sense. He said it works fine, but the problem with importing it to the US is the fuel. Apparently, OS's fuel is such that it would be taxed as consumable alcohol, there is nothing added to denature it and I guess it would be very easy to remove the oil. He said the ethanol was pure. So the chances of this engine making it to the US market is some between zero and none.

We continued to talk about engines and I mentioned converting the OS four strokes to diesel. He said he's done it for a UAV application. He said they used a spark ignition to get it started and then it was run as a diesel. We talked about Walbro carbs, and changing needle tapers in two needle carbs to account for the differences in fuel. He told me that he would get Jet-A at an airport instead of other sources of kerosene and it was much easier to start. It was an interesting talk and I forgot to get a card from him.

I talked with a glow plug manufacturer about ethanol. He said that it's just and issue of the right heat range.



Jezmo -> RE: Ethanol (10/21/2007 1:36:05 PM)

Sounds like the glow plug manufacturer hit the nail on the head as far as it being simply a matter of heat range. I have been flying my ST40 on a Super Sportster with E85 in it. In order to get good transition and idle I had to move to a Type F OS plug. I took it apart a couple days ago and the bushings/pins look good so I will continue to test. So far, So good.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.
0.4067383