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    • All Forums >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Glow to Electric Conversions >> RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion
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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/3/2007 10:10 PM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Greg,

    The CG marked on the fuse side is actually 6 3/8 back of the leading edge, not 6 1/2 mentioned above.

    I removed the receiver batteries, removed the main lipos, and balalnced the plane with just motor, spinner, and prop. The plane was slightly tail heavy, only a few oz., somthing drastic had to be done in order to mount the heavy lipos.

    I removed the bulkhead that supports the front part of the servo tray and made up another bulkhead to support the tray which is located 1/8 inch forward of the servos. This will allow the batteries to be mounted at or very near the CG location. Oh yes, I mounted the ESC, externally, in the cutout behind the cowl and that is where I have the arming switch.

    The glue is drying and I am extremely busy and working at home, so, I can't spend 100% of the time on the mod. However I expect it to be finished and balanced by early this eveining, will post some pictures.

    It might fly on Sunday if the wind quits. It looks so good with the 18X10 two blade and True Turn aluminum spinner.

    Al

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           Post #: 76

    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/3/2007 10:16 PM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Status: offline     		Hi Greg, aren't you afraid of fire? I have always thought it was not a good idea to charge Li Polys in the aircraft, in your car or shop? Norm

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 12:33 AM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Greg:

    It's done, ready to go, balanced perfectly. Didn't take much to do it. Work can wait, hobbies come first.

    If you look close you will see the front servo tray was shortened, the bulkhead was removed and another glued in. I also cut the top off the rearward bulkhead to allow the wires to lay after the wing is installed. Note the ESC location and arming Deans connector which gets tucked in before flight.

    I glued in a support for the batteries and left room for the velcro straps.

    No plane is the same, but, this should give viewers an indication of where the batteries have to be placed. Two of the batteries are right on the CG, the other two are slightly forward.

    Al



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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 1:13 AM   
    Greg Covey



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    Status: offline     		Al,

    LOL! You sound truly obsessed...like most of us.

    Thanks for the photos. I forgot to mention that I am getting pricing information on a Zinger 18x10 or 18x12 4-blade prop. The wooden prop blades can be shaped at the tips and painted black for a great scale look. Major Decals also makes some scale prop labels for the P-51. ($56.60 plus shipping for a Zinger 4-blade 18x10 or 18x12 wood prop)

    Good luck on your maiden flight!

    Norm,

    The short answer is "no", I am not afraid. LiPo fires have been over for years since the balancing chargers emerged. For the long answer, read my article called, Lithium Power Solutions.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I moved on to the tail section as my short metal retract servo arms have not arrived yet.

    The rudder and horizontal stabilizer mounting were very easy. The fuselage comes with the vertical stabilizer already mounted so the rudder is simply held in place with CA hinges. The horizontal stab is aligned by two support bars and held with 4-40 screws that need to be tapped after drilling holes. This assembly makes the elevator removable for traveling or storage...if desired.

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    < Message edited by Greg Covey -- 3/10/2007 5:21 PM >

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 1:32 AM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Status: offline     		Hi Greg, Thanks for the update. I am going to revise some of my thinking. Hate taking those cowls off to charge the batteries. Norm

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 3:10 AM   
    Greg Covey



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    Status: offline     		Norm,

    Me too. I forgot to mention that it is a particularly difficult scenario on scale warbirds. I like to put the batteries inside first, then mount the wing, and leave it set up for the entire day of flying as I alternate planes. Some planes allow for easy battery removal but usually not warbirds unless you make some extensive modifications or hatch openings.

    I found a nice reference to a full scale P-51 model and wanted to share it. This site shows that the scale details on the Hangar 9 P-51D are quite close.

    North American P-51D Mustang in Detail

    Also, here is the link at Tower Hobbies to the Major Decals Hamilton Standard Prop Decal.

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    < Message edited by Greg Covey -- 3/4/2007 3:15 AM >

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 4:31 AM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Status: offline     		Hi Greg, so far I have only modified an 85 in PT-19, 81" Cub, 48 inch Cub and I put a slot into the firewall and slide the batteries in then put the cowl on. I too do not charge at the field but swap airplanes. I have an 1981 VW Vanagon Westfalia Kamper that I can put all of these airplanes in assembled plus some smaller ones. I will have a 1/4 scal3e Super Cub converted from Quadra 35 to AXi with A123 Li-Ion cells in about a week or two. I also have a 60 in Corsair, and 60 inch AT-6 done up in my old racing Texan colors "Stormin' Norman." All are converted glow and gas. Hangar 9 does a good job as does Sig and GP with their latest ARFs. Landing gear on the Warbirds have always been a problem. Thanks for the thread I am enjoying it and learning a lot. I will have some insights into the A123 cells in the near future. Norm

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 10:59 AM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Obsession, Yep, but, this is what the obsession does for ya, work quck, make mistakes. This one cost me a couple hundred bucks.

    I got the brainy idea of making up a "in series" wiring harness, deans connectors, the whole enchleda, really neat. I got carried away with my soldering and I ended up with 4 connectors in series. Plugged everything in to check the ESC and motor and wham, the ESC took a crap, smoke and all. At first I thought the batteries might be shorted, nope. Next I checked voltage, sure enough, I wired all 5S batteries in serices, all four. Put out 40 plus volts and blew the Jeti 90 amp ESC. The ESC label says it will take 42 volts, well, we all know about ESC claims.

    In order to save the day, I found a 77 amp Jeti that can take 10S lipos, rewired the series connectors to only put out 20 plus volts, 8200 mah. The ESC install is not neat, but, it appears to work. The setup is not putting out much amps, 47 to 50 at wide open throttle, but, I don't know if I trust that 77 amp Jeti to drive that big honkin 5330 motor.

    Perhaps I will just put off the maiden and run out the batteries on the ground before testing in the air. I am feeling kinda guilty of not finishing my work, if I don't fly I can finish it by Monday.

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 5:12 PM   
    Greg Covey



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    Status: offline     		Al,

    I would not recommend using the Jeti 77-amp ESC with the AXI 5330. See my 33% Edge 540, Part 1, article for details. The Jeti 90-amp ESC has no problem using a 10s LiPo supply as I have used it many times. (See Part 2) My guess is that you either used a 12s LiPo supply or connected the plus and minus in reverse. It is difficult to follow your dilemma but I hope things work out for you.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Years ago, ESCs were not programmable. You were basically stuck with the settings that came with the controller. The first programmable ESCs then used the throttle stick in a series of movements to configure a few settings like BRAKE ON/OFF, MOTOR TIMING, and CELL COUNT. Feedback from the setting change was often heard as a series of beeps from the motor being pulsed at an audible rate. When the flexibility of changing ESC settings became more than just a few parameters, the throttle stick method became complex and cumbersome to use.

    Enter the pure pleasure of using the Castle LINK software! The interface cable can be purchased at Castle Creations and the software can be downloaded from the Castle Creations Web site. After connecting the Castle LINK device to my USB port and a single 6s battery to my Phoenix HV110 ESC, I was able to program the exact settings I wanted into the controller and save the setup to my hard drive.

    Two of the Castle LINK features that I found very innovative were that I could not only update the firmware code in my HV110 ESC but I could reverse the motor direction without changing the wires between the motor and ESC! This worked out great for me because I had discovered my motor was spinning clockwise instead of counter-clockwise. I do not have to remove the cowl, cut the tywraps, and swap wires. I have heard that some of the folks flying pattern planes were having Phoenix HV ESC issues on a 12s LiPo supply and Castle Creations has made some recent improvements in operation. It is very convenient to simply download these improvements from the Internet into my P-51D without removing the ESC.

    The photos show the default settings for the ESC. Typically, I disable the brake (Brake Strength = 0%), set the Throttle Type to FIXED, disable the Current Limiting, and set the Cutoff Voltage to a fixed minimum that disables low-voltage cut-off. My philosophy is that I know what I am doing and I want to be in control. Experience has taught me that this type of plane will no longer fly before I deplete the LiPo packs to an unsafe level. The drop in power is very noticeable and it allows me to properly land without undue stress from the motor stopping. Note that this setting scenario will not always apply to all types of models or to other modelers.

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    < Message edited by Greg Covey -- 3/18/2007 7:58 PM >

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 5:33 PM   
    LaxLife72


     

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    Status: offline     		Al,
    Did I get the math wrong or is the voltage of your 4 pack series: 4*18.5v (5s) = 74 volts not 40?
    Even 3s would be over 40 volts with 4 packs in series: 4*11.1v = 44.4 volts

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 6:05 PM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Laxlife,

    Yep, you are right. I can't make it add up to anything different. Howver, I did check the output with my volt meter, and like all accountant types, I just accepted the reading without question. I was so tired and rushing, that I probably even screwed up the test.

    Now, I re-did the whole thing so I can't check the old setup again. The new setup has two 5S packs wired in series total 40 volts, then tied together in parallel for the same 40 volts. Minus one $ 200 plus 90 amp ESC.

    Greg, after reading your review again I won't take a chance with the Jeti 77, thanks for the link, and congrads on the good memory. I can't remember what the heck I did on some of my conversions.

    Al

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 6:26 PM   
    LaxLife72


     

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    Status: offline     		Al, don't give up on that Jeti90 ESC. Send it back to your supplier and I bet they'll cut you a break. Maybe they won't give you a new one for free but I'd bet 50% off is possible. Hobby Lobby has been great over the years. L.A. Johnston is the guy to send it to in customer service. Its a wise policy for them to cultivate customers like us who are climbing the Giant Conversion learning curve. They know they've got a firm grip on our wallet.

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 7:41 PM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		I'm going to send it back, but, it's been my experience that the credit takes time and so does shipping. So, I decided to try the present config and see what happens. Below is the results of my run test, that I just finished. I am still shaking and cold from trying to hold this monster back while reading the amp meter. This thing is a monster, a whole new experience.

    18X10 Master Airscrew two blade
    10S Lipos, 8200 mah

    At wide open, batteries just charged:
    57 to 60 amps
    2000 Watts
    7500 RPM

    8 1/2 minutes later running 1/2 to full throttle:
    50 to 52 amps
    1600 to 1700 watts
    7250 RPM


    I just couldn't hold it any more, my knees hurt, my shoulders hurt, man, I'm full of hurts, but, I have one heck of a smile on my face and nothing got hot. The ESC was slightly warm, but, that's it. The funny thing, the ventilation is so good with the prop spinning, the ESC was cooler at full throttle than 1/2 throttle.

    Edit: uploaded finished picture, weight 17 lbs, 10 oz. Heavier than expected, or perhaps my wobbly knees were affecting the scale's reading.

    OK, now I can finish my weekend project of work, my mind is at ease.

    Al



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    < Message edited by algutkin -- 3/4/2007 8:15 PM >

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 9:43 PM   
    Greg Covey



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    Status: offline     		Al,

    I'm afraid that your efforts (and pain) were unnecessary and likely a habit due to your glow and gas experience. A typical electric power test need only last about 10 seconds. There is no need to run the power system any longer. None of the components, including the LiPo packs, need a break-in period.

    There is usually insufficient cooling during a static test which makes the components hotter than they would experience in the air. Fortunately, you are limiting the power level to 2000 watts at full throttle instead of 3000 watts. The reason that the ESC was cooler at full throttle was due to the design of the power switching circuits. The ESC is more efficient at full throttle and therefor produces less heat.

    The prop and spinner look great but do you think it will fly ok without a pilot?


    < Message edited by Greg Covey -- 3/4/2007 9:45 PM >

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/4/2007 11:41 PM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		I understand Greg about the no need for break in. I never broke in a gas or nitro motor, too impatient a personality, I say fly the plane, it will break itself in, or it will break.

    I usually run out the Lipo batteries for a few reasons the first time.

    1. Quickly measure peak performance and RPM
    2. See what power is generated after some time has passed, fresh charged batteries give off some jolt power at first, then seem to settle in.
    3. Check the duration before ESC slow down, I gave up after 8.5 minutes, arms and legs started to hurt. Some of my twins will only fly for 4 minutes, not enough room for larger batteries. Don't want one motor to shut down before the other, so, I test for the reliable flying time.

    Yep, the pilot, or lack thereof. None of my planes have pilots. Maybe when I learn to fly better, the planes will deserve a pilot.

    Al

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 12:21 AM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Status: offline     		I have seen Al fly and it is no wonder he can't get a pilot to get in his airplane. Norm

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 12:50 AM   
    LaxLife72


     

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    Status: offline     		good looking Mustang. Congrats Al on another great build.!

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 4:48 AM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Norm,

    LOL

    Hey Norm, are they letting you out of the home these days to go flying? I mean flying anything, like kites, gliders, RC airplanes, and last but not least, the big planes. Are you still working for Flying magazine?

    I never told you what happened to the SNJ-5. I sold the plane to a guy named Fox, I think Jim Fox, ex commander of George Air Force Base. Years later I was in Aircraft Spruce and saw a picture on the wall of a plane crash. It seems the pilot crashed his T6 in a intersection in Compton, CA. The plane was a total mess, all balled up, Fox walked away, unhurt. Guess what plane? Glad he did it before I could.

    Well now it's the big time for me, RC airplanes, where it seperates the men from the boys. I'm still one of the boys, I don't have any ideal if I will ever graduate to the next level. When I fly, everyone clapps when the plane comes back, what else is there?

    I can't wait to fly this P-51D, there is a giant gas P-51D at the field, also owned and flown by a pilot that didn't graduate into the secure man pilot category, it should be fun, two screwups trying to fly together. I'm going to fry him, I already know this electric is faster, I only hope I can keep it in the air long enough to prove it.

    Take care Norm. Some day I will come up to Apple Valley and scare the guys in your club. Bet I can get them to clap. LOL

    Al

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 4:54 AM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Laxlife,

    I got the word, the latest release of Red Diamond Cab. is an award winner. I am buying a case first thing on Monday. Buy the way, still lots of BS on the C-130 release. I call once a day and ring their bell, they don't know nothing. What dummies?

    OH, just to stay in sinc with this thread, I really think I can fly this plane, looking forward to posting videos. We all know Greg is going to get some hot shot Scale Warbird contest winner to fly his, but, I think the proof is when an intermediate to advanced pilot can fly one also. I think I just promoted myself. LOL



    Al

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 5:31 AM   
    feathermerchant


     

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    Status: offline     		Greg - FYI My maiden flight on my H9 P-51 (60 sized Miss America) had the gear stop short of retracting fully and flew around too high to see it for about 1:30
    UBEC performed flawlessly keeping everything working. So they really work great.
    PS Where have you been? Castle has had the rotation direction choice in their software for over a year now.
    Looking forward to the video.

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 6:18 AM   
    mpope1


     

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    Status: offline     		Al you are a riot. Try to keep that mustang in one piece......

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 8:20 AM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Status: offline     		Hi Al, Tina lets me out of the house once or twice a week as long as I wear my GPS ankle bracelet. Guys at my club wear hard hats when I fly. My SNJ Stormin' Norman was rolled up in a ball near Chicago a few years ago. Owner was making wheel landing and blew it. Of the four Texans I had all have been crashed by Cessna pilots who wanted a Warbird....big difference guys. Got a whole fleet of big electrics ready to go when the wind stops blowing, would love to have you visit our club, will save a hard hat for you. Norm

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 10:50 AM   
    igoren


     

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    Status: offline     		HI GREG,
    I DIDNT FINED ANY THRED REGARDING MY 60 SIZE P-51 . AL THE ONES ARE IN THE 6 - TO 8 LB ARF TYPE PLANS. ( NOT REAL SCALE P-51 )
    I AM IN THE 15LB !!! FLYING WAIGHT WITH ALL OPTION. THERE FOR I TRIED THIS THRED CONVERTION , AS YOU DEMONSTRAIT LOTS OF KNOLAGE IN
    THIS DEPARTMENT.
    I STILL THING E-FLITE 160 WILL NOT BE OVER KILL UNLESS I MISS SOMTHING IN MY CALCULATIONS.
    PLEASE ADVISE IF YOU CAN
    REGARDS ,
    ISAAC
    EXC. MY TYPO......

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 6:17 PM   
    algutkin


     

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    Status: offline     		Issac,

    I have to tell you, a 15 lb, 60 size P-51 sounds like it would be a scary thing to fly. I don't think there is enough room for batteries, and the wing area is small for that weight. I hate to say it, but, it might be better suited for nitro. In any case, it sure will need to fly fast in order to stay in the air.

    Before spending any money to electrifly this bird, I would check out ways to lighten it up.

    Al

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    RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion - 3/5/2007 6:45 PM   
    normgoyer


     

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    Last Login: 7/17/2012
    From: Apple Valley, CA, USA
    Status: offline     		Al, forgot to answer, son Robert is Senior Editor at Flying and I am writing for Plane & Pilot magazine. Some members of our club are doing great ARF-Bashing with Mustangs turning them into Reno Racer look alikes for upcoming air race series. Glen Arthur, Mustang lover just completed a Jeanie look alike from H9 ARF. Club was flying over a dozen P-51s and the sky was getting crowded and boring. Norm

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    (in reply to algutkin)
           Post #: 100

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    All Forums >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Glow to Electric Conversions >> RE: Hangar 9 P-51D Mustang 150 Review/Conversion
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    P-51 Mustang - Version 2
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