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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 3:58 AM   
flyonedge


 

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Status: offline 		Hey man, I know how you feel! It's like this around here. Guys are pasionate about their favorite manufacturers!. So don't take it personal. I don't think the EF Yak is too heavy for 50cc, but you can definitely find comparable models from other companies that are easily 1lb lighter. Lighter is certainly not always better, just depends on your style of flying! There are so many 50cc Yaks out there now you can definitely find what you like! And most of them are very very well built. So, just wait for people's real flight reports and make a judgement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tangy Tom

Shawn,

I'm not talking about point scoring or any of that "bigger is better" stuff (don't know how you got that impression anyway as it was never mentioned). Even my old Gran could tell you that bigger will perform better. I was talking TOC performance as in how it pulls out of a hang, how it pulls round a one roll rolling loop starting downwind etc etc.

And I'm not whining, having a dig at EF, claiming this new Yak is an over weight sea monster or anything else (you really have got thin skins over the water don't you). All I'm saying is that I personally think it wants more than a 5hp engine.



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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 4:22 AM   
Josey Wales



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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyonedge

you can definitely find comparable models from other companies that are easily 1lb lighter.



Im interested in checking some of them out..which ones are you talking about ?

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:04 AM   
shakes268



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josey Wales


quote:

ORIGINAL: flyonedge

you can definitely find comparable models from other companies that are easily 1lb lighter.



Im interested in checking some of them out..which ones are you talking about ?


Please don't start this.

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:06 AM   
Josey Wales



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quote:

ORIGINAL: shakes268

Please don't start this.


LOL!!! Im totally serious!! Not trying to stir the poop....

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:14 AM   
shakes268



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josey Wales


quote:

ORIGINAL: shakes268

Please don't start this.


LOL!!! Im totally serious!! Not trying to stir the poop....


My dad can beat up your dad.

JR is better than Futaba

3W over DA.


Come on, don't be one of those guys.


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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:17 AM   
Josey Wales



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Status: offline 		OK...I know you don't believe me... flyonedge please PM me some links...

Besides..everyone knows Futaba is better than JR!

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:35 AM   
jgraham10


 

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:41 AM   
shakes268



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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 5:54 AM   
Maudib



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Status: offline 		I think it's a fair question... no need to compare here...

In Yak's there are:

The QQ 86", the Ultra RC 85", the Aeroworks 85", Aerotech 84", Lanier 87", PAU 87" Yak

For other airframes: Airwild Extra 260 and Edge 540, Wild Hare Edge Gen2, H9 Extra 260, PA Edge, Pau Extra and Edge, CHP Double Vision and DV

The list goes on...

Only a couple have 1450 sq in...

Most will appear VERY small in relation to the EF 88"...

If you go to Toledo, stop and look at the Aeroworks 50cc Yak... the look at the EF 88" Yak... like comapring a 1.60 size and a 33%... enormous difference... That's the case with several of the "new generation" 50cc airframes.

WIthout a doubt the 88" poushes the limits of 50cc class... but that's a LOT better than pushing the limits of 1.60 size airframes by putting larger wings on it and dropping a 50cc engine in it....

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 6:02 AM   
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Status: offline 		There are no better, or lighter airframes than those offered by Extreme Flight, period! If you want to be disapointed get a TOC Yak, now thats an overweight piece of crap!!


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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 6:07 AM   
Josey Wales



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Status: offline 		Thanks David...Those were the ones I have looked at..thought maybe I missed one...

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 6:12 AM   
shakes268



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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/11/2007 12:43 PM   
Tangy Tom


 

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quote:

WIthout a doubt the 88" poushes the limits of 50cc class


That's all the point I was making

quote:

So, just wait for people's real flight reports and make a judgement


Agreed.

On the plus side I do think it is a fantastic looking aeroplane. Shame I've sold all my kit that would suit this size of model.

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 12:45 PM   
Mmoose


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BCG

There are no better, or lighter airframes than those offered by Extreme Flight, period! If you want to be disapointed get a TOC Yak, now thats an overweight piece of crap!!




Well that seems quite a statement !!! I have been following this post and what surprises me is the fact that people can go on arguing about something they havn't really seen for real !!

AS SEEN ON TV ya....advertisers make you wonder in disbelief at how extrodinary a product is on TV ...pushing you to pick up the phone to make that call......HURRY WHILE STOCKS LAST they say ......you go ahead all excited about the new purchase only to face total horror when it arrives .....either its different then what was seen, very poor quality, specs differ than those advertised or just all out trash.......BUT sometimes you get more than what you payed for ( SOMETIMES ) .

You go to buy a Toyota Land Cruiser and the guys at the showroom tell you well the 200X model is actually much better than the 200Y model......UHH ??? How could that possibly be ?? Its a Toyota aint it....same model same manufacturer ,just a different year ?????

The moral behind these stories are that:

....what is advertised is not always correct....and since the technology has bought the whole world together we get to disscuss these things on forums like this one where we can learn from each other the dooes and dont's of the products from hands on experience. We should make best use of it and not jump to conclusions.

Just because a manufacturer came out with a good model one year it does not automatically qualify all his products as the best in the market !!!

BCG seems to think that YAK TOC is an overweight piece of crap although hundreds of others seem to think it is the best thing to hit the market in a long time. Is that his personal opinion or is that based on a market survey ??? .....I wonder. I also wonder if he has tried all the other models of all the other manufacturers......again I wonder how many planes has he purchased from EF ?????? Since you say they are the BEST and LIGHTEST than you must have tried the HUNDREDS OF MODELS EF offers along with the hundreds of other models offered by all the other manufactures !!!!!

Guys I have never owned an EF Yak but have been waiting for a long time for EF to come out with the new YAK and am looking forward to buying one on the second run and will be anxiously waiting for our buddies out there for the flight reports ........What engine I put in the end will be decided on actuall AUW ,build and flight reports .....not I think and I feel type of stuff !!!!

Later

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 4:05 PM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		1450 sq inches is a big scale model -for 50 cc- but very doable
The BLING I am flying is truly ballistic on a 40 piped -and it is --1450 squares-- weight tho is only 14 lbs but it is a "thingy "type model.
-

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 2/12/2007 4:07 PM >

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 5:49 PM   
zayzay1


 

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Status: offline 		from 2nd hand experience the am/toc/sd yak is a great airframe and does anything on a da 50 at around 16.5lbs, even the aerotech at a little over 18 can be made to do almost anything but it is a bit smaller, needs more engine, and is all around not as good as am/toc/sd yak.

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 6:45 PM   
Maudib



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Status: offline 		Interesting...

The SD Model 30% Yak is 87", 1422 sq in, 75.5" long 16.5 lbs and "does anything" at 16.5 lbs
The Aerotech is 84", 1410 sq in, 80" long is 18lbs and is "smaller" but needs more engine.

I'll assume both of these are stock mufflers or inv. pitts (no tuned pipe)

Just comparing those two shows they REALLY cannot be compared apples to apples.. I mean The "larger" one has 3" more wing (but only 12 sq in more area) BUT is nearly 5" shorter???

The smaller is NEARLY the same wing area and longer... but weighs 1.5 lbs MORE and needs more engine at 18 lbs...

So if it was 1.5 lbs less... it SHOULD compare more to the SD Model performance...

The TOC/SD Model Yak offers 26.73 oz per sq. ft wingloading.... at 16.5 lbs and a guestimated 28 lbs of thrust from a stock mufflered DA50 a 1.69:1 power to weight

Now the EF 88" Yak offers 88", 1450 sq. in., 86" long and 18.5 lbs with a tuned pipe DA50, heavier wheels and an aluminim spinner, wheel spats, gear fairings, fake louvers... and perhaps not the lightest loadout.

It offers at 18.5 lbs..... 29.39 oz per sq. ft wingloading, and with a guestimmated 32 lbs of thrust on a tuned pipe DA50 as 1.72:1 power to weight...

NOW based on the airframe weights... I believe I could get this plane 17 lbs with a stock muffler without leaving ANYTHING OFF and simply selecting lighter tires and using a stock muffler. 27 oz per sq ft wingloading and 1.64:1 power to weight...

Or if i wanted to really maximize the build... pay an extra $60 for CF gear, tuned pipe, leave off the spats, fairings and fake louvers...

About 16.8 lbs, 26.69 oz per sq. ft and 1.9:1 power to weight...

IF the SD Model aircarft will indeed "do anything"... then using this same comparison... the 10" longer, 28 sq, in larger EF Yak with a good deal MORE power to weight ratio.... SHOULD be even better right????

Able to "do anything" with even MORE power...

My point here is that you CAN go by the numbers... but ONLY of you related them properly and compare failry the figures...

Will my figures hold up to reality? I believe they will and we will soon see... and if they are fairly accurate... then this plane offers very similar wingloading at a greater power to weight than these that have been mentioned...

The 88" is a much larger aircraft at an incredible weight for it's size... and while people are saying "it's not enough power"...the numbers are holding up to against those planes that "are enough" or can "do anything".

Outfitted properly this plane is comparable in wingloading and power to weight than the other options... at an appreciable size increase...

I can not WAIT for myself and others to get this in and start the build... then we'll KNOW the weights, the power and put some proof in the pudding!








< Message edited by Maudib -- 2/12/2007 6:54 PM >

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 7:10 PM   
GoeKeli



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Status: offline 		David, all what you have said is good stuff but I can not imagine how you get 32lbs from a DA50. I have done many tests with good digital scales with many props on tuned pipes and have not come close to this number. Tell me how I can get 32lbs? What pipe/prop etc. Is this a thrust calculator number?

This plane will be a beast even on a 40cc no doubt. I can't wait to see them show up at my field.

Joe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maudib

Interesting...
It offers at 18.5 lbs..... 29.39 oz per sq. ft wingloading, and with a guestimmated 32 lbs of thrust on a tuned pipe DA50 as 1.72:1 power to weight...





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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 7:21 PM   
Maudib



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Status: offline 		Here are numbers reported by Scott of Brillelli on the 360GT, 1060 tuned pipe and various props... almost new engine with mo time on it...

Measured on a quality ball-bearing slide scale...

NX 24x8 6400 rpm 33lbs of thrust
Xoar 23x8 7100rpm 34lbs 2oz of thrust
Xoar 22x10 7200rpm 30lbs of thrust
Mejzlik 22x8 7450rpm 30lbs 14oz of thrust
Xoar 22x8 7550rpm 32lbs 10oz of thrust

Chris reported a 23x8 Mejzlik at 6980 rpm on the 1060 tuned pipe... should have been putting out somewhere between the 22x8 Mej and Xoar 23x8 above... or ABOUT 32 lbs... (again with only 6 flights on the engine)

Most people have reported 4 lbs more thrust with the tuned pipe over stock muffler (and certainly a good bit more than that over a Pitts)

My own thrust calcs show similary...

Even if these figures are off by some amount (and they very well couold be especially based on altitude/atosphereic co)nditions... the DIFFERENCE between the stock and tunep pipe in the same environment is still evident... and that the 88" on 1060 tuned pipe will put out more power to weight than the SD Model mentioned on a stock muffler...

Then if one was to go with the CF tuned pipe from ES Composites... and save yet ANOTHER 1/4 lb plus?






< Message edited by Maudib -- 2/12/2007 7:23 PM >

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 7:27 PM   
Richard D Bahmann aka/Wrongway



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I checked my DA-50 two weeks ago with a 50lb Digital fish scale, NX-22x8, Amsoil 100-1, Sea Level at about 55 degrees and low humidity. I got 29lb 14 peak and then it settled in at 29 solid. This was at about 7300 rpm.

The muffler is stock DA and the engine has about 10 gallons since new. I really feel that the flight performance is slightly better in the cooler months here in Florida as opposed to say 90 degrees and 90% humidity that we get most of the year. I will try to check it again when the weather warms up. I am anticipating about 27.

So if you add a pipe you are picking up 5 lb of thrust?

Richard

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 7:28 PM   
shakes268



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maudib

I can not WAIT for myself and others to get this in and start the build... then we'll KNOW the weights, the power and put some proof in the pudding!






If the norm holds true for all other ARF manufacturers, you'll see some guys come in at 16.5 pounds. Some others will come in at the prototype weight. A few guys will come in at 20 pounds and start screaming.

So much depends weight of servos, weight of the actual servo arms. Choice of engine, choice of exhaust. Choice of batteries. So, it will be interesting to see what the average comes in at.

Still though, as far as I am concerned - the Yak design has been out for some time now - at least a few years in the mainstream ARF market. What "design points" that work well have pretty much been incorporated into almost all Yaks from every major ARF manufacturer. In the end, a Yak is going to fly like a Yak. If you like how a Yak flies, you'll be happy with any of them.

What differentiates this model from others is the size and some things like the wheel spats versus wheel pants. With adequate wing loading it will fly fine. Just like all of the other Yaks out there. There may be some slight variations in flight characteristics but it will fly like a Yak. Which Yak you own is going to depend on which one you like. It doesn't make it that much better than any of the others - it doesn't make it that much worse than any of the others - but it does make it the one that person chose and to them, its better...because its theirs.

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 7:43 PM   
Maudib



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Status: offline 		I've seen reports on average of about 4 lbs more...

Now with your engine, prop and location... you might not see 32 lbs but 31...

Your numbers sound in line with Scotts and Chris' as Scott has 7450 on a 22x8 Mej and read 30.14 oz of thrust...

Moving to a 1060 tuned pipe you might expcet to move up to a 23x8 NX and of course get more thrust...

Again... the point is that is someone lieks a 16.5 lb model with a DA50 and stock muffler... then this plane will offer better power to weight at a similar wingloading with a 1060 tuned pipe...

That's whether their seup get's 6800 or 7300 rpms on the stock setup... as the tuned pipe will go up a size in prop and put out about 4 more lbs thrust...

That power increase relation doesn't seem to change...

Now if you are in higher altitudes and find that a 16.5 lb airplane on a DA50 stock muffler isn't enough... then likely you won't find the 88" on a tuned pipe satisfactory either... and of course you will do the same thing you'd do ont he 16.5 lb plane... heavy it up more with a larger engine...

Point being... apples to apples... thsi airframe is not heavier in wingloading or power to weight than those others that are reported as "unlimited" and very satisfying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rdb127

Goekeli

I checked my DA-50 two weeks ago with a 50lb Digital fish scale, NX-22x8, Amsoil 100-1, Sea Level at about 55 degrees and low humidity. I got 29lb 14 peak and then it settled in at 29 solid. This was at about 7300 rpm.

The muffler is stock DA and the engine has about 10 gallons since new. I really feel that the flight performance is slightly better in the cooler months here in Florida as opposed to say 90 degrees and 90% humidity that we get most of the year. I will try to check it again when the weather warms up. I am anticipating about 27.

So if you add a pipe you are picking up 5 lb of thrust?

Richard



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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 8:07 PM   
Richard D Bahmann aka/Wrongway



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Status: offline 		Thanks David.

BTW my post was intended to show that the DA on stock exhaust can step up to the plate.

We will see what my G-62 lite on th Ecomposites pipe will do with the 23x8.

Ralph at Rcingitions says you cant hurt that G-62 with rpm and that the regularly test them to 13,000 rpm on chain saw applications. All I am hoping for is 7500 on a 23x8.

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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 8:13 PM   
Maudib



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Status: offline 		Hubba hubba... The 60's are rellly gonna be something on this...

Yeah I think that you are right... setup right... this plane will easily complete in weight, wingloading and power to weight... 50cc or 60cc, stock muffler or tuned pipe... I think an 80 is insane... but a person could even do that if their level of performance requires it...

And for that reason... those that are concerned with power to weight... there is certainly several directions to pursue that will allow BETTER power to weight than existing "unlimited" setups... with the benefit of a larger aircraft...



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RE: new extreme flight rc 88" yak too heavy?? - 2/12/2007 8:15 PM   
GoeKeli



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Status: offline 		David, I don't understand if your numbers are from a brelliiie 60? I have no problem with these numbers, but I have never seen them with any of the DA50s on KS1060 pipes with any props I have tried. But the truth is in how the plane flys and it's all good on the users end if he/she enjoys it. That is what it is about for me. DA50 is my first choice for a plane like this. I have flown a larger and heavier plane than this with the DA50/KS combo logging many hundreds of flights. 20 minute flights at that, over 500 of them!~()llol!!!!
At 32lbs of thrust this new plane will rocket/snap out of hover like a shocky on nitro.

Non of this matter too much to me or the planes that I fly, they or I do not care if it is DA powered, electric or rubber band. Just as long as it flys the way I like it, it is a personal experience and PTW is subjective to taste and or environment.
IMO, 88"yak=DA50-pitts K.I.S.S. approach.

Joe

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