dadamisin

Did a quick search and did not find anything - tho certainly this has come up before! My apologies if redundant, but am seeking help and until now it never occurred to me to ask advice through this forum! Basically my question is what are some of the things YOU look for in a manual for an ARF? How much info is too much? Too Little?.

By way of introduction, I have been building models for 45 years, have been an active competitor, and a sport flyer, and just plain built a LOT of stuff! However I am one of those "dinosaurs" who really prefers building, thus I have actually built fewer ARFs than I have had designs published! I know the PERFECT manual for everyone does not exist, but one hopes that the manual will be useful to as many poeple and experience & skill levelsas possible! Thus I am seeking some feedback from THIS forum on some of the things you like (or not) to see assembly manuals.

I am currently writing updated manuals for Experimental Aircraft Models (http://www.rchomebuilts.com/). Those of you familiar with this company know that they market high quality stuff, but they also keep updating the products with successive production batches - hence the need for updating their manuals. I have completed updates for the RV6/7 and the Challenger II and those manuals are now available to download/view from their website. I would appreciate any feedback you can offer on those.

I am currently writing the update for the EAM Glassair. On one hand, anyone who gets this model probably should not NEED a lot of instruction - maybe just guidance on CG and control throws. On the other hand, people who buy this kit probably EXPECT to see that some thought went into the manual as well as the model! On the RV-6/7 and Challenger II manuals went so far as to write different sections covering the differences between a likely 2-stroke and 4-stroke engine installation. On the Glassair the only real difference is the holes in the cowl for the muffler pipes - does that warrant a special installation sequence?

...and THANKS in advance for your help!

carrellh

I have two ARFs; SIG 4*60 and Great Planes Big Stik 60. Both manuals have photos and clear text. I think you need both. Great Planes has most of their manuals online. Doing one following their template would be a good way to go.

Carlos Murphy

My Feedback: (72)

Fly Boy models (B.P. Defiant and Boxcar) have poor manuals, incomplete pics and no text.

dadamisin

Carell & Carlos:
THANKS for the comments:

Carrell: I have not built Sig or GP ARF's but have built their BIY kits and those manuals are outstanding. DARNED GOOD suggestion for me to download some manuals too.

Carlos: I did not find the models you mentioned in the RCU reviews sections. However, and to your point, I am striving for step-by-step instructions coordinated with pix - and check-off boxes. This results in a manual that is roughly 25-30 pages long. Printed copies are supplied with the kits and copies are also posted on the EAM website.

I perceive the experience level for our hobby ranges from "We don't need no stinkin manuals!" to "Which hand do I hold the screwdriver in?" Thus the challenge to strike a balance: I am thinking that "too much"manual is probably better than too little..?

BTW do you have any experience with the Experimental Aircraft Models products? Seen any at your flying fields?

ArmedZagi

My Feedback: (1)

I'd have to say the worst I've had was the Graupner Extra300s. The manual that came with it was for an older version of the same plane... The design had been changed A LOT. Got really confusing when they had me using 2 elevator servos when the servo tray only had room for one....

Carlos Murphy

My Feedback: (72)

Dennis,

Look in the "for sale" War Bird section for the Boulton Paul Defiant, C-119 Boxcar and SR-71, I think their too new to have any reviews posted yet.

I have the Boxcar and Defiant, thats how I know about the instructions and as for the instructions.... 30 to 35 pages? For a ARF??

5 Pages should be plenty for "most" ARF's and like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm almost finished with the Defiant, waiting for the retract servo and the RCV 91 4-stroke.

Like most ARF's the Defiant's not perfect but I can't find anything I really don't like about it.... except the landing gear doors, they look good down but they sure don't fit when their up. The ball turret needs some help too, should have "4" gun barrels sticking out of it not 2, I used aluminum tube.

PJ_TankPilot

I started a thread titled "Instructions assembly sequence" on 10/10/2006.
It has a lot of fluff in it but you can see my thoughts on the subject.

Marshall, MI ehh. I just spent a month in Coldwater and it seemed like a year.

dadamisin

A month in Coldwater that seemed like a year? you must have come during TOURIST season! ;-) All seriousness aside its great in mid summer in the middle of a long chain of lakes...

dadamisin

PJ:
A month in Coldwater that seemed like a year? you must have come during TOURIST season! ;-) All seriousness aside its great town in mid summer - in the middle of a long chain of lakes. As for now Mother Nature has put COLD in Coldwater...

I will go looking for your thread... THANKS!

Carlos:
After my last message I went digging a little deeper and found the models. The BP Defiant is NOT something I would have seen offered as an ARF, so I guess that gets points for bravery anyway! You are right to spend time on the turret. That is the SIGNATURE of the Defiant - without the turret its just another warbird.

As for manual and page count - when you go through and describe AND picture every step it that's how much space it takes. In both the manuals so far I also set aside different sections for 2-stroke and 4-stroke engine installations.

The RV-6/7 and Challenger II manuals are posted at EAM's website, www.rchomebuilts.com. I'd get a kick out of it if you took a peek at them and tell me what you think!

dadamisin

ArmedZagi
THe problem yu described with your Graupner is the same at EAM faces. They HAVE been making continuous improvements in the product with each batch, so the manual ends up needing to be totally rewrtten as if the bird was brand new.

THANKS for the feedback.

PJ_TankPilot

What I didn't tell you is that I lived there from 1941 to 1961. I built my first model airplane in 1948. Living in a small town with no help of any kind, I acquired model airplane skills the hard way.

On your subject, I think that many ARF manufacturers have figured out that a good assembly manual will help sell their product. Some now include additional hints plus suggestions for things like 2 stroke vs 4 stroke installation. Hangar 9 is making improvements on theirs which were already decent. Just take a look at the build threads here on RCU. What do people want ? Pictures, pictures and more pictures.

It has nothing to do with instruction manuals, but I sure would appreciate it if they included a square foot of the covering materials used.

dadamisin

PJ
I agree about the covering material - at least swatches of a couple of the main colors too. I will pass that thought back to EAM. They are using Ultracote so at least the builder should have a fighting chance of getting a material color match at their LHS.

BTW I found and thoroughly endorse your "assembly sequence" thread. Am re-ordering the currrent manual I am writing, pointing out that installaion of the engne begins with assembling the fuel tank, and that installaingof the tail begins with building the pushrods! Goal is to write in the sequence that gets everything built ONCE without install/remove/re-install sequences.

I am starting to think about some kind of "layered" manual: break the assembly into zones then give a sequence summary of what needs to be done. Experienced folks might stop there, but less experienced folks could read "deeper" if they need it. NOT sure I am good enough to actually WRITE one that way!

red head

If you can get hold of one of the Midwest ARF manuals ( they don't sell ARF's anymore ) , you might get some good hints there. I always thought Midwest had about the best manuals on the market. Kit or ARF.

I've also spent a good deal of time in your area ( and a lot of others ) but right now I'll bet you would rather be where I am.

ENJOY !!! RED

dadamisin

Red:
Well I can tell you that the SNOW and cold have lost their charm..! And PUHLEEEZE do not tell me how many flights you got in over the weekend! Every fall I tell myself I am going to fly through the winter. Every winter I come to my senses....

I will look for a Midwest manual. Meanwhile, do you remembetr WHY it is you thought they had great manuals? Lots of pix? Lots of text or just enough words? My manuals are ending up 25-28 pages and that seems excessive for a 90% completed aircraft! Yet I am reluctant to hack & slash...

Oh, and don't forget your sunscreen!

carrellh

I downloaded the RV-6/7 manual and read through it. I think it is excellent. Expert modelers may not need this amount of info, but a lot of us do. I have assembled two ARFs and have built two kits. I'm working on a 3rd kit. I still need the step-by-step, with photos, instructions.

If the models are being upgraded, I don't envy your task of rewriting the manuals all the time. I do think I could take your manual and assemble the RV successfully.

dadamisin

Carrell:
THANK YOU for looking over the manual - and Thanks too for your positive feedback! It is kind of tough without having the kit in front of you but at least you see what I was talking about when I said it was taking around 25 pages or so.

I think the trick is going to be to write the manuals so an "expert" can kind of skim through as he needs, but still have the back-up data available for those who need it.

On the manual I am writing now for the Glasair, I am also keeping closer track of adhesives and hardware I am using and keeping the "extra materials" list more up to date. I am also trying to make the text a little tighter and concise, plus I am using MORE pix...

Eagle Flyer

My Feedback: (84)

I have built several Great Planes ARFs and they are all mostly the same. With minor differences for the particuliar model. But the manuals are by far the best I have seen for an ARf. And I have built several different brands of them. They have lots of info and lots of pictures. And updates available on the web. Granted a lot of people wouldn't need this amount of info but there are always the newbies who do.
After looking at some of the other brands it amazes me that their manuals are out dated when you take into account how easy it is to update them with todays computers.
On the other hand I recently built a Skyshark 540 Edge and it was by far the best built and best fitting parts of any ARF I have done. Everything fit exactly the way it should. No mods needed any where. But the manual was outdated on a few things and a couple items were not very clear. But My experience guided me thru it. It may not with a less experienced builder. But any company worth their salt will help you out if you send them an email.

dadamisin

Eagle:
THANKS for the response. Looks like another vote for GP manuals. Thanks for the help I just downloaded the Chipmunk manualk and it is simialr to where I have been trying to go with the EAM manuals. I think mine might be a little "busier" so I am going to continue to try to clean it up and tighten up the phrasing. STILL need more pix!

I would appreciate it if you could download the RV-6/7 manual from Experimental Aircraft Models (www.rchomebuilts.com) and give me your feedback on it...

red head

Dennis:
I'm an old man and new to computers and allready hate them. I've tried to return info to you twice and this darn thing dumped on me just as I was ready to send.

Anyway we'll try again. Call Midwest and see if they can send you a manual of either the Aero-Star 40 or the Aero - Bat ARF's 1-800-348-3497. I think if you see one you will get some good ideas.

In answer to your question -- I would say all the above and go from there.

Their manuals are great in all areas::::::: Layout, sequence, discription and thoroughness. The manuals I suggested are 46 pages plus cover and back.

Don't short a manual, someone will need the info and if they don't they don't need to read it.

My flying was cut short for a bit to put in new floors but I'll be back to 3 days a week flying, 2 days for golf and the weekends for racing.
Later ENJOY !!! RED

dadamisin

Red
Don't sweat the computers just keep reminding yourself "PC's are my friend PC's are my friend.....!" So ironic, I HAD a Midwest Aerobat that I picked up off EBAY then turned around and peddled it at a swap meet a couple months back. I WAS impressed with the model and thought it had great potential, but I ALSO had christmas bills stacking up!

Point well taken on not short-sheeting the manual. I am trying to "tighten" it up like our English teachers tried to teach us!


Golf-airplanes-racing (racing what???) sounds like a life style I could REALLY get to like - my time is coming (I hope!)

Birman

Dennis, the Hanger 9 ARF manuals are excellent. They leave no question unanswered...
Larry

dadamisin

Larry
Thanks for input. Can you share what it is about the H-9 manuals that make them good? Pix? writing? Good assembly sequencing? All of the above???

Birman

Dennis, yes it would be all of the above. Why don't look at one of their manuals. Look about half way down on the page on the left side. It's in PDF format.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN2450

Larry

gary9648

My Feedback: (1)

The worst one I have seen is the manual for the Composite ARF Mustang. On the other hand the manuals put out for both H9 and GP, Top flight are excellent. Byron Originals had some of the best I have ever seen along with Yellow Aircraft.
Gary Webb

PJ_TankPilot

One problem that ARF and kit makers should address:

Many come with all metric or both metric and non-metric hardware. The instructions assume that you will use all the hardware provided which is often not the case. The hardware sizes are probably not listed anywhere.

Here is a scenario that happens far too often. The experienced builder tells the newbie that the clevises supplied are junk and should be replaced with 'good metal ones'. The newbie gets some metal 2-56 clevises and puts them on the metric pushrods. If they are lucky, the plane will change trim and the problem fixed. If not, they will crash after a few flights when the clevis pulls off the pushrod. I have seen the first hand many times.

The instructions should warn about problems that come from hardware substitution.