RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed  
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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 5:48:39 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronCross

OK, how about after the engine is broke in .... Is a glazed cylinder a good thing (reduced metal contact) or a bad thing ?...


Glazing is not a good thing, at least not if too early. The carbon fills the pores and crosshatching of the bore and this leaves a mirror surface which is too slick for the rings to seat in. I think its ok if it happens well after the rings seat.


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 7:02:50 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

You do not need to run the engine lean either, to cause glazing. Normal engine temps are all that
is needed, and further....anything you leave too much oil on the cylinder wall, glazing can occur.


Again you are confusing your full scale experience with model engines. Our two strokes mix the oil with the fuel, that way you can't leave just the oil on the fuel. Synthetic oil will not carbonize and castor will only carbonize when run hot or lean. Manufactures often recomment that ringed engines run so rich that they four cycle, they will not glaze in this conditions.



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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 7:22:45 PM   
DarZeelon



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Status: online 		It is the purpose of the high load to prevent the glazing.

The rich mixture is to keep things cool, while the ring and the sleeve mutually hone each other.
This is just like that 'cooling milk' used on the blade of a lathe, or a milling machine.


I am not completely sure synthetic oils will not form a glaze...
After all, their temperature stability is lower than that of castor oil.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 7:31:21 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		I am not sure how the high load prevents glazing, I think this is again from full scale, where high loads expand the rings which helps prevent oil from working into the upper cylinder. Its the cooling and washing effect of the rich mixture which prevents glazing in our engines. Synthetic oil vaporizes before it actually burns. Still I suppose it could leave small amounts of carbon, but the fact that it leaves the engine so clean tells me that there is little carbon from synthetic oil, I suspect we get more carbon from the methanol which normally is not enough to accumulate.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 8:12:57 PM   
DarZeelon



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

I am not sure how the high load prevents glazing, I think this is again from full scale, where high loads expand the rings which helps prevent oil from working into the upper cylinder.



Hugh,


With high combustion pressures getting behind the rings (as the piston pushes the ring up, the ring is snug against the bottom of its groove, but there is some space between the ring and the top of its groove, where compression and combustion pressures can enter and apply pressure to the ring, toward the outside (in the direction of the cylinder walls).

The ring then scrapes the cylinder wall harder, thus preventing oil from settling there and burning to form glaze.


This occurs in a .09 glow engine (the smallest ringed engine I ever saw), just like it does in a full-size engine.


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 8:19:02 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		But that would be like using a squeegee in a flooded basement! As soon as you wipe the oil off then more gathers right back!

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 8:34:44 PM   
DarZeelon



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Status: online 		...But whatever does begin to burn-on, is scraped off by the ring on its next pass...
The ring is 'hard pressed' ( ) to get it off, as well as to hone itself against the cylinder...

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/21/2007 8:47:48 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

...But whatever does begin to burn-on, is scraped off by the ring on its next pass...


I could be wrong, but I believe that the carbon that causes glazing happens at a much smaller scale, possibly molecular, for the ring to be very effective at scraping any immediate carbon deposit off. Glaze is very hard and obviously well bonded to the metal under it. It also more or less proves that carbon is actually a metal.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 12:08:46 AM   
gkamysz


 

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Status: offline 		I enjoy reading both of your posts trying to express his opinion. Dar with "I know this from experience" and Sport Pilot with "well theoretically" I just googled cylinder glazing and read several different viewpoints. I don't think there is a definite answer. None dealt with glow engines, few dealt with two stroke engines.

I'm going out on a limb to say that Dar's experience is closer to being right though.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 1:58:43 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Well I don't think Dar has actually said he ever experienced glazing on a glow engine, his experience with glazing is also from full scale engines. I think the last time this went around Baxter of Tower said they have never seen a glazed glow engine, other than those which had simply worn out to a mirror surface. That is not the type of glazing we are discussing.

< Message edited by Sport_Pilot -- 2/22/2007 2:00:05 PM >

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 2:25:00 PM   
DarZeelon



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Status: online 		Hugh,


I actually did not ever see glazing in a glow engine, but the conditions that preside in such an engine can cause glazing, just like in full-size engines.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 2:27:42 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Well if you and I and Tower Hobby Services has never seen a glazed glow engine, how can we be sure such a thing exists?

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 2:34:16 PM   
Flyboy Dave



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Again you are confusing your full scale experience with model engines.


I'm not confusing anything Sport_Pilot. There is no difference in engines large or small. You
simply do not know what I'm talking about because you have nothing to draw from. I'm
trying to explain basic engine mechanics that every Journeyman mechanic knows
from chapter 1 of of Engines 101....

....and you want to argue about it.

Imagine if I read a small booklet about heating standards and then started arguing
with you about things that I had no clue about, not a days training at a trade school, not a
moments real world experience what so ever, in any way shape of form, and never worked in
a heating shop for one day....

....then started arguing with you about basic procedures that you, and every other heating
man on the Planet knows as stone cold, undeniable facts.

You argued with me before about piston rings, and quite frankly, from what you said before,
and this round....I would bet money that you have never held a piston ring in your hand.

I spent a lifetime fitting rings and boring cylinders in thousands of engines, and you want to
argue with me about it.

FBD.


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/22/2007 2:38:37 PM   
Ed Cregger



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Well if you and I and Tower Hobby Services has never seen a glazed glow engine, how can we be sure such a thing exists?



-------------


If ones definition of glazing is the deposition of a third/alien compound upon the cylinder walls, and not simply the result of a work finish, then engines utilizing lots of castor oil in their fuel with the resulting castor varnish finish, could be considered glazed. That I have seen many times before. I think that our definitions of precisely what is glazing are what is causing the confusion.


Ed Cregger



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