Ringed vs Non-ringed  
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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Glow Engines >> Ringed vs Non-ringed
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Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 8:35:32 AM   
huck1199


 

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/5/2007
From: , NY, USA
Status: offline 		Ringed vs Non-ringed - Does any one have a link to a white paper comparison of the durability/quality/application of ringed piston engines vs the myriad of combinations of sleeve/piston alloys/metalurgy depositions engines?

I have searched for quite a while anf found that all of the information I find is anecdotal or manufacrurer provided pablum; e.g. they all say thier product is the finest technolgy available, etc.

Are there any guidelines? For example; high performance, disposable points to a tapered plated cylinder/piston vs pedestrian output and long life requirments would favor a ringed piston?

Huck
       Post #: 1

RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 12:32:07 PM   
speedster 1919



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Joined: 12/17/2004
From: Martinsville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		What are you trying to do - split an atom - True ABC were invented for less friction when hot and more RPM hence less friction. They don't last as long and harder to start when cold. A liner and piston needed for rebuild (matched set) A ringed engine will last longer and a ring will be a rebuild. A ringed engine will tollerate a lean run better than ABC. Keep in mind some ringed engines tout ABC construction. That is for the liner only............I have a twin stick with a ST45ABC and a ST45ringed and I don't see a big difference............

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 12:53:55 PM   
Ed Cregger



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quote:

ORIGINAL: speedster 1919

What are you trying to do - split an atom - True ABC were invented for less friction when hot and more RPM hence less friction. They don't last as long and harder to start when cold. A liner and piston needed for rebuild (matched set) A ringed engine will last longer and a ring will be a rebuild. A ringed engine will tollerate a lean run better than ABC. Keep in mind some ringed engines tout ABC construction. That is for the liner only............I have a twin stick with a ST45ABC and a ST45ringed and I don't see a big difference............



-----------


Technically speaking, the non ringed engine has the potential to produce more power than the ringed engine. The ports can be made larger without the danger of snagging and breaking the piston ring, because there isn't one. However, as Speedster stated, I find that non ringed engines do not last as long at their power peak than ringed engines. This is a generalization and there will be exceptions here and there, but I hold it to be generally true.

Non ringed engines generally break-in in less time than ringed engines. Generally. Not always. Some of the cheaper non ringed engines can take an amazingly long time before coming up to their optimum running fit. It depends.

I prefer ringed engines because of the lower rebuild cost, but I also buy non ringed engines from time to time.


Ed Cregger


< Message edited by Ed Cregger -- 2/16/2007 10:24:52 AM >


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 12:56:39 PM   
Clean



Posts: 990
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From: Parkville, MO, USA
Status: offline 		The big differences are when run correctly, you will have slightly more power from the ABC engine over the ringed BUT correct operation for an ABC engine is full out, idling cools the liner tightening it and increasing wear. With a ringed engine the tightening of the cylinder is accounted for by the ring so it will last longer. The chromed sleeve makes the only wearing part of the engine be the ring, which works pretty good. But for all out power, ABC is the way to go, but logically we all should be running rings.

Then again, with the engines that I run, and as much as I run them anymore, I can afford to replace the ABC engine when it drops off on power.

You also have to break in a ringed engine much longer than you have to break in an ABC engine, just another factor.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 1:55:50 PM   
DarZeelon



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quote:

ORIGINAL: speedster 1919

...A ringed engine will tolerate a lean-run better than ABC.



Randy,


I strongly disagree!

A ringed engine, when run too lean and detonation sets in, will first over-heat the ring, which will then butt its ends and continue to expand... it will eat away the sleeve and itself.

One lean-run that lasts more than a couple of seconds and you will need a new ring (which admittedly will not be very expensive, if you keep away from the OEM and go to Frank Bowman).
A longer lean-run and you will need a new sleeve too.

With an ABC engine, a lean run will cause the expanding sleeve to 'walk away' from the piston, essentially preventing wear from metal-to-metal contact. After colling down and shrinking back, the engine will be usable again, unless you do this very frequently...


< Message edited by DarZeelon -- 2/15/2007 2:34:12 PM >

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 2:19:11 PM   
Ed_Moorman



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From: Shalimar, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I agree with Dar. The ABC system was invented by Super Tigre to combat lean runs and holed pistons on their control line speed engines. The idea was the sleeve would open up, the engine would lose compression and slow down, preventing a seizure or burning a hole in the piston.

When ABC engines first came out, they were more expensive than the older iron piston engines or ringed engines.

It has always been my feeling that the proliferation of non-ringed engines is they are nearly bullet proof from the occasional lean run by a novice user. They also can be run without a break-in with little or no downside as long as they are run slightly rich. From the 1990s on, we have had a great increase in the number of new RC fliers. Nearly all of these are not old time CL or FF fliers like myself and have no knowledge of model airplane engines. These new fliers generally do not want to build their plane from a kit or break in their engines. The engine manufacturers know this, hence the greater production of the non-ring, easy to run engines. Look at the Evolution engines. They are an obvious attempt to keep the newby from totally messing up his engine.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 2:29:40 PM   
Insanemoondoggie


 

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From: Somewhere, MN, USA
Status: offline 		As others have mentioned, the abc does develpop more power than the ring engine at top end, not much more. The ring engine well last longer and handle dirty, dusty conditions better.
When breaking in a ringed engine, I use 5% nitro and Omega fuel with 70% syn, and 30% castor. The ring is very pourous and the carbon from the castorhelps seal the ring during breakin. Once it has been broken in I switch to 15% Coolpower.
I now break in all my engines this way. Tho I don`t believe is needed on the abc as in the past I have just used CoolPower 15% with no problems.
To rebuild my ringed engines cost about 12 bucks for a ring, abc you have to replace the liner and piston and it`s sometimes cheaper to buy a new one. The abc does have a little more power but after many hours of flight time, the ringed engine will hold it`s power longer than the abc and last longer. And a ringed engine handles dusty conditions better.
I was amn O.S. man and a while back on a whim tried a SuperTigre GS-40, Once I got the hang of tuning the ST`s and breaking them in right, I bought 4 more, all ringed. I run Bisson Pitts mufflers on them, not the Slimline Pitts, as the Bisson does cut down on the sound. but it does cost a little power. I did put the GS40 on a Sig LT40 and used the quite muffler that comes with it. Very quite, was suprized and still had plety of power for a trainer with a 70in wing.
I also just broke in a 4 stroke Magnum 52 on my test stand. 90buck new from Tower hobbies, what a sweet little engine. It`s going on a GP Ultimate 40.
If your new to the hobby, go with an O.S. as thier a little more user friendly. If you been in the hobby awhile, try a SuperTigre, the quality is as good as any expensive name brand, at half the price. Most people don`t care for the needle valve being so close to the prop. to me it`s no big deal.

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 2:32:16 PM   
IronCross



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From: NearBy, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Hmmm... I have had several lean runs of several minuets duration on one of my Saito .72's with no discernable damage to the ring or cylinder... It had a plastic backplate that was apparently flixing and the oring seal between the head and intake would start leaking air... First sign it was leaking was a hotter then normal engine and a lousy idle... I don't think the ringed engines are as "delicate" as you guys think....

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 2:44:15 PM   
Ed Cregger



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From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronCross

Hmmm... I have had several lean runs of several minuets duration on one of my Saito .72's with no discernable damage to the ring or cylinder... It had a plastic backplate that was apparently flixing and the oring seal between the head and intake would start leaking air... First sign it was leaking was a hotter then normal engine and a lousy idle... I don't think the ringed engines are as "delicate" as you guys think....



----------


Four strokes fire every other time, so even with their increased efficiency, it is not as much total heat being generated as a two-stroke from a lean run.

Some engines have better cooling than others, as do some model airplanes provide better cooling than others. We are generalizing. Generally, over heating a ringed engine long enough causes the ring to lose tension, but it is no big deal to replace the piston ring. Yes, if someone tries very hard, they can do substantial damage to an engine's sleeve too by running it too hot for too long. However, generally, this does not happen.


Ed Cregger



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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 2:45:35 PM   
DarZeelon



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From: Rosh-Ha'Ayin, ISRAEL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronCross

Hmmm... I have had several lean runs of several minutes duration on one of my Saito .72s with no discernible damage to the ring, or the cylinder...



Roger,


I have this engine too.

Like nearly all four-stroke engines, if you set it too lean, it will just back-fire and stop, often throwing the prop loose.

If it did not, it was just a bit lean of ideal and not yet in the dreaded 'lean-run' range.


The Saito also has a chrome electro-plated bore, that is easier on the ring and very wear resistant.
Maybe it is the quality materials of your engine that prevented damage, rather than a 'natural' harmless-ness of a lean run?



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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 3:16:34 PM   
IronCross



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From: NearBy, AZ, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronCross

Hmmm... I have had several lean runs of several minutes duration on one of my Saito .72s with no discernible damage to the ring, or the cylinder...



Roger,


I have this engine too.

Like nearly all four-stroke engines, if you set it too lean, it will just back-fire and stop, often throwing the prop loose.

If it did not, it was just a bit lean of ideal and not yet in the dreaded 'lean-run' range.


The Saito also has a chrome electro-plated bore, that is easier on the ring and very wear resistant.
Maybe it is the quality materials of your engine that prevented damage, rather than a 'natural' harmless-ness of a lean run?




The engine was set fine on take off and landed way lean... The seal apparently went out in the air... No backfires but much hotter then usual (could smell it ) and idleing rougher then a cobb... I had to rplace the Oring to get it going again along with strapping down the intake pipe but that is another subject... ...

Ed
You probably have a good point about 4 strokes not getting as hot... I could smell the hot oil on this one though..
Guess my question would be what expands when the engine heats up... Ring ?. Cylinder ?, or both ?... I have been told by the Saito techs that temp is not improtant when setting the valves as the maaterial used is pretty temperature stable... I did not ask them about the rest of the engine... Probably should have


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 4:19:56 PM   
Clean



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From: Parkville, MO, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie
Most people don`t care for the needle valve being so close to the prop. to me it`s no big deal.



Tweaked a couple Fox 15's and 35's, ehh?

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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 4:54:01 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
...!Phuuu
Once again a discussion about how many angles that could be placed on the head of a needle...


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RE: Ringed vs Non-ringed - 2/15/2007 5:33:33 PM   
Insanemoondoggie


 

Posts: 1656
Joined: 11/29/2006
From: Somewhere, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Lets just say, it only took once for me to learn that a prop turning 10,000 rpm`s can teach a life long lesson on what can happen if your finger gets a little to close LOL!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Clean


quote:

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie
Most people don`t care for the needle valve being so close to the prop. to me it`s no big deal.



Tweaked a couple Fox 15's and 35's, ehh?[quote


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